Video: Preacher Deception Faith Alone No Works?

[Eternally Grateful]

Avoiding works to only boast in God is false humility.

Why would you say I preach that we avoid works? Where does this come from?

I have always said that a true believer will work. They will not a void it (well they may avoid some, if we know to do right yet do not do it it is sin) because we are self focused and in the flesh, But the people of God have been Gods perfect love to overflowing the love of God pours out from them to others (works) and not only this, they are new creatures. No longer dogs who eat their vomit. They are totally new, As sin, which tasted good to them as unbelievers, now taste like acid, poison, no matter how hard they may want to do things they did before. It’s not the same, I know. i have experienced this.

This thinking that we who believe in eternal security avoid works. Again, where does this come from. it is not even close to reality

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Thank you sister... People are so very often complaining about Catholics, but I have seen no groups as a whole serving God better.

Thank you, Amadeus.

First, though: some preliminary observations. As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)
The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.

By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.

This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.

Catholic Merit Vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

Anti-Catholic polemicist James McCarthy bears false witness, in distorting & caricaturing the true Catholic doctrine of merit by taking isolated Catholic statements out of context.

www.patheos.com

What's really sad is Mccarthy has been around Catholic apologists for years, he knows better, but lies anyway.

I know amadeus prefers large font.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thank you, Amadeus.

First, though: some preliminary observations. As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:


Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:


Canon I on Justification:


The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:


Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:


St. Augustine wrote:



The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.

By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.

This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.

Catholic Merit Vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

Anti-Catholic polemicist James McCarthy bears false witness, in distorting & caricaturing the true Catholic doctrine of merit by taking isolated Catholic statements out of context.

www.patheos.com

A lot of stuff here

I would just stick to what the word says

Not by works of righteousness (good deeds, works, sacraments, =acts of obedience whatever you want to call them) which we have done, but by HIS MERCY he saved us by the washing ands renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Its Gods work.

we do not cooperate with God. I am not sure where this idea came from either

God comes, he draws, He makes us make a decision I have here a gift, do you want it, or do you not.

If we say yes (believe) He saves us (we are not condemned)

if we say no thank you (for whatever reason) we remain in a condemned state,

its like if your father offered you a house,’’if you say yes it is yours

If you say no it is not

saying yes is not cooperating with your father, nor is it working to recieve the gift.. The work was already done (your father paid for it by his hard work)

I think people try to make things more complicated.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

A lot of stuff here

I would just stick to what the word says

You stick to what the word says privately to you, your premise is false.

Not by works of righteousness (good deeds, works, sacraments, =acts of obedience whatever you want to call them) which we have done, but by HIS MERCY he saved us by the washing ands renewal of the Holy Spirit.

This has nothing to do with McCarthy bearing false witness.

Its Gods work.

Yes, said that repeatedly. When you see any post by a Catholic, you react without thinking.

we do not cooperate with God. I am not sure where this idea came from either

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
I would argue that YOU are a fellow worker, but it's not in your language.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth1.2 II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer1.3 III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation1.3.1 New Testament1.3.2 Old Testament1.4 IV. Veneration /...

www.scripturecatholic.com

JUSTIFICATION - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification1.2 II. Works of Law versus Good Works1.3 III. Justification = Inner Change of Person (Infusion); Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)1.4 IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a...

www.scripturecatholic.com

God comes, he draws, He makes us make a decision I have here a gift, do you want it, or do you not.

Yes, I said that.

If we say yes (believe) He saves us (we are not condemned)

if we say no thank you (for whatever reason) we remain in a condemned state,

its like if your father offered you a house,’’if you say yes it is yours

If you say no it is not

saying yes is not cooperating with your father, nor is it working to recieve the gift.. The work was already done (your father paid for it by his hard work)

I think people try to make things more complicated.

This has nothing to do with a popular teacher who bears false witness with books and videos. "Works righteousness" or "works salvation" charged against Catholics is a myth that won't go away. Hopefully you can begin to understand why it won't go away. It's because liars create the illusion of truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You stick to what the word says privately to you, your premise is false.

This has nothing to do with McCarthy bearing false witness.

I was not trying to say otherwise.

I was making a general post

Yes, said that repeatedly. When you see any post by a Catholic, you reply without thinking.

lol. And you know this how?

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

You have this all twisted.

A work is a work is a worK. it does not matter if the work is done in faith (we will be rewarded) or if it is done out of faith (it is sin)

It (salvation) is of grace or it is of works, it will never be of both. Period

Paul is saying, if paul was saved by his works. He would have somethign to boast about. Because he earned his salvation. Abraham could boast. I said myself. By my deeds 9works)

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

yes, God wants us to work, In fact, Paul tells us in Eph 2: 10 that we who are saved by Grace through faith, not of works. Are created for good works.

What is our good works? To seek after things of the spirit. To produce fruit. By serving others. Anything we do out of love, But remember, we love because God first loved us.

Please do not insinuate I do not think we do not do good works. works. Works are a byproduct of salvation Not something done in order to obtain salvation

You can not cooperate with God and work your way out of hell. Thats what the cross was for

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Not applicable

We can not work our way to heaven

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth1.2 II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer1.3 III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation1.3.1 New Testament1.3.2 Old Testament1.4 IV. Veneration /...

www.scripturecatholic.com

JUSTIFICATION - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification1.2 II. Works of Law versus Good Works1.3 III. Justification = Inner Change of Person (Infusion); Not Just a Declaration by God (Imputation)1.4 IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Nothing here supports us working to earn salvation

Not of works lest anyone should boast. Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy

Yes, I said that.

Good!!

This has nothing to do with a popular teacher who bears false witness with books and videos. "Works righteousness" or "works salvation" charged against Catholics is a myth that won't go away. Hopefully you can begin to understand why it won't go away. It's because liars create the illusion of truth.

It is true

If I was going to work my way to heaven, i would be catholic. They have the most works (they call them sacraments) they have the longest tenure of any denomination (They are right there with the jews for being called people of God) and if all else fails. They have purgatory.

You can’t claim you do not teach works, when your whole foundation is based on works.

 

[Oneoff]

Faith versus Works has never been a problem for me.
From my earliest days of fellowship I was taught the difference between the 'Gift' and the 'Prize'.

Eternal life in God's New Jerusalem being a 'Gift' that was 'Given' regardless of 'Works'.

Whereas a place in God's 1000 year millenial reign (metaphoric in the sense that a thousand years is but a day to God?) was to be 'Won' (Revelation describes the participants as those being "accounted 'Worthy' to reign with Christ,") IOW a 'Prize' to be 'Won' by 'Works'

For me that resolves numerous perceived scriptural ambiguities.

The Gift as distinct from the Prize (might they not be attained chronologically at second and first resurrections?)

Paul already had the Gift, but nevertheless "strived to attain the Prize"

"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Philippians 3:11-15

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I was not trying to say otherwise.

I was making a general post

lol. And you know this how?

You have a reputation of being an irrational anti-Catholic.

You have this all twisted.

A work is a work is a worK. it does not matter if the work is done in faith (we will be rewarded) or if it is done out of faith (it is sin)

It does matter, a work done outside of faith is NOT a good work. And it is not necessarily sin. The Red Cross does a lot of good work, but it's humanitarianism, not done in faith, and not necessarily sin.

It (salvation) is of grace or it is of works, it will never be of both. Period

You offer no plausible alternative to the scriptures that it IS both.

Paul is saying, if paul was saved by his works. He would have somethign to boast about. Because he earned his salvation. Abraham could boast. I said myself. By my deeds 9works)

Paul is talking about works of the law, not good works.

yes, God wants us to work, In fact, Paul tells us in Eph 2: 10 that we who are saved by Grace through faith, not of works. Are created for good works.

Not of works of the law. Agreed.

What is our good works? To seek after things of the spirit. To produce fruit. By serving others. Anything we do out of love, But remember, we love because God first loved us.

Amen.

Please do not insinuate I do not think we do not do good works. works. Works are a byproduct of salvation Not something done in order to obtain salvation.

I made no such insinuation. I think you are a good Christian, just grossly misinformed by repeated lies branded into your brain.

You can not cooperate with God and work your way out of hell. Thats what the cross was for

I never said you can work your way out of hell.

Not applicable

We can not work our way to heaven

Yes, I posted official Catholic teaching saying this exact thing, but you automatically shut your mind off and argue with what we agree on.

.

Nothing here supports us working to earn salvation

Nothing I posted supports us working to earn salvation. In fact, I posted official Catholic teaching that says the opposite, but you choose not to see it.

If I was going to work my way to heaven, i would be catholic.

Such an insult is a manifestation of cognitive dissonance.

They have the most works (they call them sacraments) they have the longest tenure of any denomination (They are right there with the jews for being called people of God) and if all else fails. They have purgatory.

Sacraments are not works, they are gifts from God, instituted by Christ. Is Matrimony a work??? Is anointing the sick with oil a work? Is baptism a work? You change the meaning of "sacrament" into something it isn't.
Purgatory is an off topic emotional derailer. Why? Because you have to be right.

You can’t claim you do not teach works, when your whole foundation is based on works.

I already explained why this statement is a lie. This lie been repeated to you over and over again; like a MacDonalds advertisement. You accept a lie as truth. That's how propaganda works, by creating the illusion of truth.

 

[Wynona]

Why would you say I preach that we avoid works? Where does this come from?

I have always said that a true believer will work. They will not a void it (well they may avoid some, if we know to do right yet do not do it it is sin) because we are self focused and in the flesh, But the people of God have been Gods perfect love to overflowing the love of God pours out from them to others (works) and not only this, they are new creatures. No longer dogs who eat their vomit. They are totally new, As sin, which tasted good to them as unbelievers, now taste like acid, poison, no matter how hard they may want to do things they did before. It’s not the same, I know. i have experienced this.

This thinking that we who believe in eternal security avoid works. Again, where does this come from. it is not even close to reality

When I believed in eternal security and listening to those who taught it, I thought my works would come from "resting in the finished work of the cross". I thought they were automatic the way many people describe them today.

They aren't. You have to actively abide in Christ to do them and avoid sin. Sin mopped the floor up with me under this kind of teaching. That's why I believe the modern churches discourage works and overcoming sin completely in this lifetime.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have a reputation of being an irrational anti-Catholic.

From who? Proof?

It does matter, a work done outside of faith is NOT a good work. And it is not necessarily sin.

Anything not done in faith is sin.

You offer no plausible alternative to the scriptures that it IS both.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Next?

I already explained why this statement is a lie. This lie been repeated to you over and over again; you accept a lie as truth. That's how propaganda works.

Actually you gave me your opinion. And you have not refuted me in this post. All you gave was your opinion.

Now. I would suggest you read these words back to yourself. And ask yourself. Is it not you who the things you believe have been repeated to you over and over again for so long that you accept your own belief as truth?

Thats propaganda, I agree.. Only it is you who have been fed it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When I believed in eternal security and listening to those who taught it, I thought my works would come from "resting in the finished work of the cross". I thought they were automatic the way many people describe them today.

They aren't. You have to actively abide in Christ to do them and avoid sin. Sin mopped the floor up with me under this kind of teaching. That's why I believe the modern churches discourage works and overcoming sin completely in this lifetime.

This confuses me

Because the people I have met and know. They found freedom from sin in that teaching, it is was when i was stuck in the legalistic mindset that i struggled. Because I could not find power over certain sins, and instead of trying harder (whcih never worked) I would just hide those sins so no one would see them
I also saw many people walk away from God. Because why try to match up and earn your salvation when you can not meet that goal and you keep failing.

I am not denying what you saw. I just wonder what really happened because I have not experienced that at all. In myself or others.

 

[Wynona]

This confuses me

Because the people I have met and know. They found freedom from sin in that teaching, it is was when i was stuck in the legalistic mindset that i struggled. Because I could not find power over certain sins, and instead of trying harder (whcih never worked) I would just hide those sins so no one would see them
I also saw many people walk away from God. Because why try to match up and earn your salvation when you can not meet that goal and you keep failing.

I am not denying what you saw. I just wonder what really happened because I have not experienced that at all. In myself or others.

I believed what I was taught. I was taught to deal with my sin by just "resting in the finished work of the cross" and reveling in my position as a beloved child of God that could never be unloved again.

That sounded really good to me as a porn addict.

But I didn't just want to keep being addicted to porn and the lustful gazes of strangers. I wanted to actually feel God's presence and be like Jesus. I craved the fear of the Lord, not just some blind acceptance from Him.

I wanted to see the fruit of the Spirit. I read Galatians 5 and didn't see any.

I had to make a clean break from the above sayings to find the answer: abiding or continuing in Christ through staying in the Scriptures and obeying His commands. This does take effort at times. But I don't boast in that because I cannot do it without God.

When I stay in the Scriptures---I can stop the lusting and vanity that threatened to ruin my lufe and hurt those around me. I can stop porn. Stop fits of rage.

When I actually try to live out Jesus' command to love one another and lovingly meet the needs of those I come across--- I realize I can stop sinning. I can actually be the slave of righteousness God calls me to be.

I wanted this. I feel like all those churches I went to for guidance trampled this desire in me to teach grace grace grace grace grace at the expense of authentic righteousness by faith.

 

[Wynona]

This confuses me

Because the people I have met and know. They found freedom from sin in that teaching, it is was when i was stuck in the legalistic mindset that i struggled. Because I could not find power over certain sins, and instead of trying harder (whcih never worked) I would just hide those sins so no one would see them
I also saw many people walk away from God. Because why try to match up and earn your salvation when you can not meet that goal and you keep failing.

I am not denying what you saw. I just wonder what really happened because I have not experienced that at all. In myself or others.

I appreciate this. If for others, the bar was too high in an incorrect way, for me, it was way way wayyy too low.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believed what I was taught. I was taught to deal with my sin by just "resting in the finished work of the cross" and reveling in my position as a beloved child of God that could never be unloved again.

I would question anyone who taught you this. This is not from God

That sounded really good to me as a porn addict.

I understand this as a former smoker addicted to nicotine. Just trust God. He will take it from you..

But I didn't just want to keep being addicted to porn and the lustful gazes of strangers. I wanted to actually feel God's presence and be like Jesus. I craved the fear of the Lord, not just some blind acceptance from Him.

What do you mean by blind acceptance? And I feel you I wanted the same

I wanted to see the fruit of the Spirit. I read Galatians 5 and didn't see any.

This would make me question also.

I had to make a clean break from the above sayings to find the answer: abiding or continuing in Christ through staying in the Scriptures and obeying His commands. This does take effort at times. But I don't boast in that because I cannot do it without God.

When I stay in the Scriptures---I can stop the lusting and vanity that threatened to ruin my lufe and hurt those around me. I can stop porn. Stop fits of rage.

When I actually try to live out Jesus' command to love one another and lovingly meet the needs of those I come across--- I realize I can stop sinning. I can actually be the slave of righteousness God calls me to be.

I wanted this. I feel like all those churches I went to for guidance trampled this desire in me to teach grace grace grace grace grace at the expense of authentic righteousness by faith.

I wonder if you were not part of that Church that thinks you just say a pray and magically you are saved.

I have found no power in those churches. Or in the people

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Actually you gave me your opinion. And you have not refuted me in this post. All you gave was your opinion.

Not my opinion. I posted official Catholic teaching from 2 different councils 1000 years apart consistently teaching the same thing.
They collapse your chronic lying into a heap.

Now. I would suggest you read these words back to yourself. And ask yourself. Is it not you who the things you believe have been repeated to you over and over again for so long that you accept your own belief as truth?

Truth is not subjective. I accept what has been handed down; no reconstruction is necessary. You accept whatever you choose.

Thats propaganda, I agree.. Only it is you who have been fed it.

De-nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I appreciate this. If for others, the bar was too high in an incorrect way, for me, it was way way wayyy too low.

Mind if I ask what Bar you’re talking about?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 – Eternally Grateful errs in her understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.”

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

 

[Wynona]

Mind if I ask what Bar you’re talking about?

Christian standard of conduct.

IThe first time I chose a church, I joined a Baptist youth group. Most of them made out with each other in the back of the church van. Youd think the group activities would be more learning about how to be functioning members of the church or Jesus' teachings.

We played a lot of games. And ate a lot of pizza.

Not picking on Baptists. I don't like youth groups in general.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not my opinion. I posted official Catholic teaching from 2 different councils 1000 years apart consistently teaching the same thing.
They collapse your chronic lying into a heap.

It does not matter if they are 4000 years apart. If it is not true. It does not matter

You gave you opinion of what i was saying was my point either way

Truth is not subjective.

I agree

I accept what has been handed down; no reconstruction is necessary. You accept whatever you choose.

It was handed down. Just not through the Catholic Church

De-nile ain't just a river in Egypt.

I agree here also. You’re not giving me any reason to come to your line of thinking. Or that I am in error

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christian standard of conduct.

IThe first time I chose a church, I joined a Baptist youth group. Most of them made out with each other in the back of the church van. Youd think the group activities would be more learning about how to be functioning members of the church or Jesus' teachings.

We played a lot of games. And ate a lot of pizza.

Not picking on Baptists. I don't like youth groups in general.

I look to the bar of what it means to meet Gods standard.

No one meets this bar.. It is so far out of reach, we cant even tough it.

I agree with you about what you saw. i saw things like that also. I dated a catholic girl once. I went to Mass with her one morning, She told me I was not allowed to take the cup. Or the bread. I had to sit while she went up and recieved the mass.

She then took me home, ripped my clothes off. And we had sex.

it suprised me, yet at the same time did not surprise me, i had seen it before.

When you think you can make up for your sin, you can basically sin all you want. Just do some penance and you’re good.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

It does not matter if they are 4000 years apart. If it is not true. It does not matter

But you made no reply to the councils I posted that emphatically states we are nor saved by works, but you don't care, you keep lying anyway.

It was handed down. Just not through the Catholic Church

Oh, was there another church that canonized the books of the Bible??? A secret remnant that no one heard of until the middle of a revolt in the 16th century?

I agree here also. You’re not giving me any reason to come to your line of thinking. Or that I am in error

I don't care. But I hope I gave those deceived with repeated lies serious pause. The readers not as dumb as you think.