PS95
Active Member
godsgrace, I just realized I was preaching to the choir here. LOL
Video: Preacher Deception Faith Alone No Works?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I knew the terms "faith alone" ar enot found, but the truth of it is found everywhere. God saves an individual apart from any work we do or any merit on our part. It is solely gods Choice
The term FAITH ALONE is found in the bible.
Here it is:
James 2:24
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Please read it.
It states that man is NOT justified by faith alone.
Faith by God's grace saves us.
But FAITH ALONE will not keep us saved.
It requires action on our part....
the action is to obey God.
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
It states that if we believe in the Son we have eternal life....
but IF we do NOT OBEY the Son the wrath of God aides on us.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Explain that to all the crippled, paraplegic, paralyzed people who rely on others.
James plainly states obeying is works. Obeying is putting your faith in Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith.
Where does James state what you THINK he stated?
And your first paragraph is pretty dumb.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Once a person is saved they are saved forever. If we have to maintain a X level of works to STAY saved then salvation is not by faith through grace but faith through grace + works and that is a lie.
BTW justification is not salvation. Now you need to reconcile the James passage you mentioned with this:
Romans 4
King James Version
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even the good works we do as a result of our being saved are done because God enables and empowers us to do them. There is no merit on our part at all.
Justification is not salvation?
Just too many inconsistencies to even be able to deal with.
God empowers you to do good works.
But it's YOU that is doing them.
Your verses:
Verse 3 Abraham believed God and it counted to him as righteousness.
Verse 4 We cannot work for our salvation.
Verse 5 The one who BELIEVES on Jesus, his faith is counted as righteousness.
This is explaining how we become saved.
Chapter 4 is about trusting God and not THE LAW.
Paul is speaking about the works of the law and trying to convince the Jews that by works they will not be saved.
This is also true of the OT.
Hebrews 11....BY FAITH those of the OT were saved.
Now, Reconcile the following:
James 2:18-26
18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Is there conflict in the New Testament?
Or, do you not understand that works means, in Romans, the works of the Law?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Look it up in Scripture-
justification is dikaiōsis which is to be declared righteous. this occurred when Jesus rose and conquered death.
Salvation is soteria which is to be delivered from something (in this case from sin). while both occur almost simultaneously, they are different acts that do different things.
Yes. Because without His power, we can do no good works that are acceptable to HIm.
Yes it was Abrahams faith apart from any works that saved him.
And even in the NT one is not saved by good deeds. though we do not have the 613 Mosaic Laws, we do have the 1008 commands that make up the law of Christ. These do not save, but show we are already saved!
Let me say this again- we are saved and kept saved by grace through faith, without any works, but saving faith produces works.
You know that I cannot agree with you.
Salvation is soteria?
Maybe that's where the word soteriology comes from?
How can a person, such as yourself, know so much and deny that it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to obey God?
Why make statements that make it seem as though we could do good deeds or not and it would make no difference.
Is this not what you're saying?
Then why use words that sound like this??
We are saved by God's grace through faith.
To do good works,,,,,Ephesians 2:10
We like to overlook verse 10.
IF we want to be a part of the Kingdom of God here on earth, which Jesus came to establish,
then we must adhere to the rules of that Kingdom....
Take the 10 Commandments for instance.
Are they suggestions or are they commandments?
Maybe we call them commandments for a reason.
God doesn't suggest....
He commands.
And we MUST REPLY....
no matter what you and those that think like you do believe the reason should be.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I am not saying this and I do not use words that imply this. I simply said we are saved by grace through faith and that saving faith produces good works as a result of us being saved.
Good works do not save, do not keep us, nor maintain our salvation. They are simply what we are commanded to do and we have been empowered by god to do them as a result of us being eternally saved.
Sin is no longer the issue. when a person receives Christ by grave through faith-ALL sins, past present and future have been removed from their account.
They are not bound over to teh church. As Paul called them, they are a ministry of death!
The law was given as a school master until faith came as Paul wrote in Ephesians.
But they do not save.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
we can deduct when the scripture says we are saved By grace and not works. That it can only be one or the other.
Remember, Paul said it is through Grace, Not by faith we are saved.
He also said if it is grace it isNo longer works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace.
I honestly am not sure where this faith alone concept came from. It is literally by grace alone
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You can not make James and paul contradict though. In doing this you might as well throw the whole bible out
Can you find context in james to make him not contradict paul in eph 2, Titus 3, Romans 4 and many other places?
I think we can
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
But what is our motivation for doing those things
thats where we get down to the nitty Gritty as far as works goes.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Again what is the motivation
a work is a work is a work. Paul said in romans 4 as well as eph 2. It is something in which you can boast of. What about works enables us to boast?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I see it differently
I see two maybe three groups.
1 group pushes works, and says if you do not work, you will not be saved.
the other group pushes grace and say if you work to try to earn it you will nto be saved, However, true salvation produces true works (Ie true faith and works go together, not as a requirement, but as a natural progression, ie, if you trust someone to save your eternal soul. You’re going to trust him in other areas also. And this trust will produce works
The final group thinks you can say some pray and your magically saved, works be Da++ed.. I can live however I want to go to heaven.
sadly, I do not see much of the third group. But the first two have been fighting since Christ left this earth
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
James is Not tryign to define works
He is tryign to define faith.
What does it PROFIT a person if he says he has faith but has no works, CAN THIS FAITH SAVE HIM.
its not about works, its about faith
and he is telling his readers to test their own faith - I will show you my faith by my works, You prove to me your faith without your works
Abraham was considered righteous decades before he offered his son.. He was completely saved before his son was even born. His works proved to abraham he was saved.
James did not tell us to be fruit inspectors to determin who is saved or not. Thats Gods job. Not ours
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You’re right, in actual words it does nto say it. Yet it does nto say the word trinity either, Yet I pray you believe in that
By grace through faith not works
Here we have the gospel. By grace alone, through faith alone..not of works period
It does not have to say alone in order for it to be known that it is there.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Again, Paul answers this question.
for it is by GRACE we have been saved (A completed action) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 Not of works lest anyone should boast (take credit for saving themselves by their works)
10 For we (those who are saved by Grace alone) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Those who are saved by Grace alone are created anew. Created for good works. it is their new nature. Unlike the old nature which wanted nothing to do with Gods will. Our new nature is changed, it comes naturally.
James is literally telling those who are hearers and not doers. If you claim you have faith, But do not have the works paul said YOU WILL HAVE, can that faith save you? The answer is no. Why? it is no faith at all, it is what James called a dead faith. No power to saved.
They did not do works because they were not created into a new creature. They still acted like themselves. Because they are not saved.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
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