The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[Matthias]

I'm speaking to someone who is even more important to me than Paul, the apostles and the earliest Christians.
They are dead, but you are alive.

The dead are not alive. That’s a fair point.

They still speak for me. Any question put to me is a question put to them.

You are the focus of my attention and respect, and whatever I do to you I do it to Christ.

Please keep the questions below "for a rainy day", as something I suggest for your personal reflection, if you deem it appropriate.
I encourage our readers to ask themselves these questions as well.
For the record, Pancho's personal answer to all these 3 questions would be "Yes, I do"

1. Do you accept that you could be unaware, right now, of religious truths that other people are aware of?
2. Do you accept that you could be mistaken in your consideration of any religious truth?
3. Do you accept that you could be in the situations #1 and #2 above, and still be living under the grace of God?

The spirit of Christ you are talking about (Baha’u’llah, per the Baha’i teaching quoted in the OP) isn’t the spirt of Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Matthias]

The spirit of Baha’i is a seducing spirit. It will move the reader away from the the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints in the 1st century to a shiny new faith - one which presents itself as “more relevant, advanced, or complete.”

What does the seducing spirit imply about the primitive Christian faith? -> it is “less relevant, undeveloped, or incomplete.”

What does the seducing spirit imply about the post-biblical developments of Christianity? -> they are “less relevant, not fully developed, or incomplete.”

Who would want to be or to stay in a religion that is “less relevant, undeveloped or underdeveloped, or incomplete” rather than to be or to stay in a religion that is “more relevant, more advanced, more complete”?

The seducing spirit is gentle and sweet. It whispers in the ear, it beckons us to come and drink our fill of love.

The scriptures warn against the whore of Babylon. Primitive Christianity has nothing to do with her. The Baha’i religion, I suggest to my readers, does. Everyone must decide for themselves.

 

[Matthias]

“One does not sell their Mother.” - A Lakota proverb

(Rebecca Clarren, The Cost of Free Land: Jews, Lakota, and an American Inheritance, p. 125)

The primitive Christian Church is my mother. I won’t sell my mother.

The renewed and restored earth is my promised land. The earth is my inheritance. I won’t sell my promised land for the Baha’i non-physical land - where ever or what ever that “spooked up” place might be.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The spirit of Baha’i is a seducing spirit.

Dear Matthias and readers

Evil spirits are seducing... but the Holy Spirit is infinitely more seducing.
That's why those seduced by the Holy Spirit can achieve infinitely far more than those seduced by the evil spirit.

The apologetic forum allows us to develop skills in handling arguments based on Scripture, history, logic, as well as personal insights.
It also allows us with the opportunity to exercise respect, kindness, and all fruits of the Spirit towards the other person.

It is obvious that persons with different religions will have different views on a topic, and will handle Scriptures and arguments in a different way. This is the assumption of an apologetic thread, I guess.

Sometimes we seem to forget that more than 95% of God's children on earth do NOT share, and will NEVER share what we hold true about a given religious topic. So we either consider this situation a blessing, or a curse.

 

[Matthias]

Dear Matthias and readers

Evil spirits are seducing... but the Holy Spirit is infinitely more seducing.
That's why those seduced by the Holy Spirit can achieve infinitely far more than those seduced by the evil spirit.

The apologetic forum allows us to develop skills in handling arguments based on Scripture, history, logic, as well as personal insights.
It also allows us with the opportunity to exercise respect, kindness, and all fruits of the Spirit towards the other person.

It is obvious that persons with different religions will have different views on a topic, and will handle Scriptures and arguments in a different way. This is the assumption of an apologetic thread, I guess.

Sometimes we seem to forget that more than 95% of God's children on earth do NOT share, and will NEVER share what we hold is true about a given religious topic. So we either consider this situation a blessing, or a curse.

I’m glad you’re here. The views are placed side by side and the reader must decide for himself or herself which is Holy Spirit and which claims to be but isn’t.

Test the spirits.

The spirit of Baha’i is evil, not holy, in the eyes of the primitive Church.

 

[GTW27]

To say The Holy Spirit is more seducing is an abomination before The Lord.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The primitive Christian Church is my mother. I won’t sell my mother.

Matthias:

Nobody is expecting you to abandon your faith.
You were the one who open the thread, who addressed me from the OP, and I have been answering your questions to the best of my ability.

You say you're glad I am here, but I perceive in your words as if you were the object of a personal attack.
I may be wrong, but I prefer not to take the risk of making you feel that way.
So, what I will do is just to comment on @GTW27 post, and then stop posting in this thread.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

To say The Holy Spirit is more seducing is an abomination before The Lord.

Hi !

I'm using "seducing" with the literary meaning of "attractive, persuasive".
The Holy Spirit is infinitely more attractive and persuasive than any evil spirit.
It couldn't be otherwise, as God's wisdom, power and willingness to carry out his purpose is infinitely superior than that of evil.

This is my last post on the thread.
May the Holy Spirit remain always with all of us.

 

[Matthias]

Matthias:

Nobody is expecting you to abandon your faith.

Anyone who does will be sorely disappointed.

You were the one who open the thread, who addressed me from the OP, and I have been answering your questions to the best of my ability.

My OP is pointedly directed against the Baha’i religion. I used Baha’i teaching in the OP and invited you to say whatever you might want to say in defense of the religion. The more open and candid you are about it the better. I commend you for that.

I’m asking you, urging you, to abandon the Baha’i religion. I don’t see any reason to believe at this time that you will. You’ve found a non-Christian religion that suites you and satisfies your deep-seated desire to spiritualize. Primitive Christianity doesn’t and won’t accommodate that.

I’m asking others, urging them, not to chase after the Baha’i religion. I’m sounding an alarm. I’m waving a red flag. I’m warning that the Baha’i religion holds out something that sounds sweet but is bitter. That is what I have to do as a disciple of Jesus Messiah himself. No one has to give heed to my warning.

No one should agree with me simply because I disagree strongly with you. Every person must examine what the Baha’i religion teaches and decide for themselves whether or not it is ”more relevant, more advanced, or complete” than what primitive Christianity teaches.

You say you're glad I am here …

I told you the truth.

…. but I perceive in your words as if you were the object of a personal attack.

You don’t believe that I told you the truth.

The words of truth spoken in love will sound like a personal attack to the ears of those who are lost and in error. This is seen often in the scriptures.

I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by making personal attacks against you and / or others.

I may be wrong …

You are dead wrong.

... but I prefer not to take the risk of making you feel that way.

I don’t feel that way and there is nothing that you could say or do that would ever cause me to.

So, what I will do is just to comment on @GTW27 post, and then stop posting in this thread.

I invite and encourage you to continue posting in this thread. I haven’t given up on you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don’t feel that way and there is nothing that you could say or do that would ever cause me to.
I invite and encourage you to continue posting in this thread. I haven’t given up on you.

Thank you, Matthias.
I believe you and I apologize for not interpreting correctly your feelings.

When you said that the early Christian church is your mother and you don't sell your mother, I found that statement intensely (and unbearably) personal.
I don't know if you are acquainted with this cultural trait of Mexico, but using the mother as a reference in conversation in certain contexts is a huge thing full or ramifications/complexities. Basically, it sounded to my Mexican ears as a scream in despair.

Let's keep on talking, then.

 

[Matthias]

Thank you, Matthias.
I believe you and I apologize for not interpreting correctly your feelings.

When you said that the early Christian church is your mother and you don't sell your mother, I found that statement intensely personal.
I don't know if you are acquainted with this cultural trait of Mexico, but using the mother as a reference in conversation in certain contexts is a huge thing full or ramifications/complexities. Basically, it sounded to my Mexican ears as a scream in despair.

As my critics sometimes point out (“He’s a one trick pony”), I will say the same thing a thousand different ways, trying to find a way of saying it that will cause the truth to click in the mind of another. (One of the good and valuable things I was taught about learning styles in the Christian Education class I was required to take in college.)

Let's keep on talking, then.

Good. To what purpose? I’ve told you mine. What’s yours?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Good. To what purpose? I’ve told you mine. What’s yours?

My purpose in this forum is to build, strengthen or at least preserve bonds among people with different beliefs.
To this end, I present arguments to show that people who think differently are not necessarily evil, or guided by an evil spirit, or producers of evil fruits, or awaiting the fate of the evil.
In this particular case, it is mainly about you and me, and few others who jump in with their contributions.
In other cases, I use the arguments to defend the "underdog", the excluded, the bullied.

In some way or the other, I do this since I was a little boy.

 

[PS95]

In some way or the other, I do this since I was a little boy.

Hi Pancho,
I just have a quick Q for you. Does the Bahai faith teach that no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ because He is the Way, the truth and the life?

 

[Matthias]

My purpose in this forum is to build, strengthen or at least preserve bonds among people with different beliefs.

That’s clear.

I caution people about compromising with the truth in order to bond. I’m not going to bond myself with a non-Christian religion and I will speak out against it. It’s spiritual harlotry.

To this end, I present arguments to show that people who think differently are not necessarily evil, or guided by an evil spirit, or producers of evil fruits, or awaiting the fate of the evil.
In this particular case, it is mainly about you and me, and few others who jump in with their contributions.
In other cases, I use the arguments to defend the "underdog", the excluded, the bullied.

You’re defending the Baha’i religion. I‘ve been speaking frankly (as you requested some time back), not diplomatically, against it and will continue to do so. My apology is for primitive Christianity.

I desire to see you converted to the simple faith of primitive Christianity that offers salvation. That’s the only way that we will be able to bond.

I sincerely commend you for any and all good works that you perform for the general benefit and welfare of our fellow human beings. I would do the same for a benevolent atheist.

 

[Matthias]

The return of Christ is the return of Jesus Christ himself in primitive Christian belief. It’s not negotiable. It’s a take it or leave it proposition. Some Christians have left it. The Baha’i religion teaches against it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi Pancho,
I just have a quick Q for you. Does the Bahai faith teach that no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ because He is the Way, the truth and the life?

Not in the way Christians teach it.
For different religions, some words mean different things. For example, "salvation", "resurrection" or "hell" have in the Baha'i Faith a different meaning. When participating in a discussion with Christian friends, I try to adapt my language so that we can understand better each other.

So, in regard to your question, we believe that the Gospel that Christ preached in words and example is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
There is no other way to come to the Father but to live as Christ lived.
I believe to have strong rational and Scriptural support for this position, but I won't present it in this thread.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That’s clear.

I caution people about compromising with the truth in order to bond. I’m not going to bond myself with a non-Christian religion and I will speak out against it. It’s spiritual harlotry.

I would not compromise with the truth in order to bond. So we share that in common.
Let me give you an example:

If an evangelist told me that in order to fit in a community, I must believe that Jews who die consciously as Jews deserve destruction (or eternal torment) I would not be interested in fitting in. I would not compromise truth.

How then, can I bond with such evangelist, since he is my brother as well?
For once, helping him to realize that, in his daily life, he already forgives Jews and he already knows God forgives Jews on the some ground God forgives him. Such realization comes from the observation of reality, introspection, and finally, the revelation from God into his heart. My words and the texts of the Bible I could quote would be a complementary tool, a catalizer.
Evidently, the catalizer can take forms that have nothing to do with my words or with biblical verses, but with living an experience.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The return of Christ is the return of Jesus Christ himself in primitive Christian belief. It’s not negotiable. It’s a take it or leave it proposition.

Nobody is negotiating. I agree it is a take it or leave it proposition.
You could have addressed the topic, say, by asking the readers whether the preterist position is right or wrong. Whether Jesus came somehow in 70 DC or not.
That could have been an approach.
You chose to approach the topic from the perspective of baha'i vs early christianity.
You chose to open the thread in an apologetic subforum and tag me calling my attention to it.

So, it is all natural that I expose the baha'i position and defend it in those occasions when I think it is being misrepresented.
In general, you have not misrepresented it. What you have said about what we believe is pretty much accurate.
We both have been honest and that's why we are still talking.

 

[PS95]

Not in the way Christians teach it.
For different religions, some words mean different things. For example, "salvation", "resurrection" or "hell" have in the Baha'i Faith a different meaning. When participating in a discussion with Christian friends, I try to adapt my language so that we can understand better each other.

So, in regard to your question, we believe that the Gospel that Christ preached in words and example is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
There is no other way to come to the Father but to live as Christ lived.
I believe to have strong rational and Scriptural support for this position, but I won't present it in this thread.

Gotcha. Jesus is the only way.
But you once knew that.
thanks for your reply.

 

[Matthias]

I would not compromise with the truth in order to bond.

The Baha’i religion isn’t the primitive Christian religion. The Baha’i religion presents a different belief under the banner of “truth”. It isn’t truth that the Baha’i religion offers. The Baha’i religion has cannibalized other religions (Christianity, Islam - which is where the Baha’i religion started and is considered heretical by Muslims, Hinduism and others), reinterpreted and pronounced it “more relevant, advanced or complete.” The truth is always the truth and relevant. The Baha’i religion, as you helpfully pointed out in post #136, uses common words and assigns them a different meaning.

The Baha’i religion is Humpty Dumpty.

So we share that in common.

You aren’t willing to compromise on ”truth” as understood by the Baha’i religion. The instant you said that the words are the same but the meanings are different you stated something that is indisputable and changes the truth. “What is truth for me isn’t truth for thee; let me tell you about my truth.”

Let me give you an example:

If an evangelist told me that in order to fit in a community, I must believe that Jews who die consciously as Jews deserve destruction (or eternal torment) I would not be interested in fitting in. I would not compromise truth.

How then, can I bond with such evangelist, since he is my brother as well?

He isn’t your brother in faith. Neither am I your brother in faith. It is a complete impossibility that we can bond in matters of faith, unless and until you convert.

For once, helping him to realize that, in his daily life, he already forgives Jews and he already knows God forgives Jews on the some ground God forgives him. Such realization comes from the observation of reality, introspection, and finally, the revelation from God into his heart. My words and the texts of the Bible I could quote would be a complementary tool, a catalizer.
Evidently, the catalizer can take forms that have nothing to do with my words or with biblical verses, but with living an experience.

You could just as easily bond with a secular humanist.

Secular humanism can produce good works. People aren’t saved by their good works.