The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[Matthias]

No, I haven't.
I'm just taking a look at the Amazon webpage and the book is very expensive (about USD 120)!

I purchase used when possible. I did a quick search for the book on a site which I use regularly and have found to be very reliable (I’ve been purchasing through them for over a quarter of a century and have never experienced any problem) and found it for about USD 6, including shipping and handing.

AbeBooks | Shop for Books, Art & Collectibles

Discover a wonderful selection of rare and collectible books, used copies, signed and first editions and more, from booksellers located around the world.

www.abebooks.com

I suppose there are very few available or no new edition.
Tell me about it, please.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You’re deeply committed to spiritualizing.

The problem with the search for “hidden meaning” is that it leads to finding “hidden meaning,” and the standard is what we want to see.

It’s not a sound biblical hermeneutic.

”Do not spiritualize the text
To spiritualize (or allegorize) is to go beyond the plain meaning of the passage in search of a deeper or hidden meaning. The danger with this method is that there are no checks for fanciful interpretation. The only standard becomes the mind of the interpreter. Stick to the intended meaning of the text.”

(Mike Vlatch, “Errors to Avoid When Interpreting the Bible”)

Errors to Avoid

Well, reason and the notions of good and evil are checks for fanciful interpretation. The Holy Spirit talks to our emotions as well as to our cognition.

• The meaning cannot be contrary to reason and science
• The meaning cannot lead you to do (or approve) evil.

Now, there is a hidden meaning / knowledge / wisdom in the Scriptures that is revealed by the Holy Spirit to those who are more "mature". However, and in contrast with what Gnostics came to think, this knowledge does not bring salvation on its own. Paul refers to this hidden wisdom in chapter 2 of 1 Corinthians.

Yet we speak wisdom among those who are mature, although not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory... ​

​

For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God... These things also we proclaim, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...​

 

[Matthias]

Well, reason and the notions of good and evil are checks for fanciful interpretation. The Holy Spirit talks to our emotions as well as to our cognition.

• The meaning cannot be contrary to reason and science
• The meaning cannot lead you to do (or approve) evil.

Now, there is a hidden meaning / knowledge / wisdom in the Scriptures that is revealed by the Holy Spirit to those who are more "mature". However, and in contrast with what Gnostics came to think, this knowledge does not bring salvation on its own. Paul refers to this hidden wisdom in chapter 2 of 1 Corinthians.

Yet we speak wisdom among those who are mature, although not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory... ​

​

For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God... These things also we proclaim, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...​

Do you believe that everyone who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit is guided by the Holy Spirit?

Paul is an Apostle. He was guided by the Holy Spirit (as were all of the Apostles.) What was hidden in scripture he has explained. The formerly hidden has been made clear.

Now come those who desire to find in Paul‘s letters deeper meaning, hidden meaning, in what Paul wrote. They assert that the Holy Spirit is leading them and revealing these deeper meanings. Another Apostle, Peter, tells us what is really going on (2 Peter 3:16-18).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you believe that everyone who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit is guided by the Holy Spirit?

No. That's why I say:

• The meaning cannot be contrary to reason and science
• The meaning cannot lead you to do (or approve) evil.

Now come those who desire to find in Paul‘s letters deeper meaning, hidden meaning, in what Paul wrote. They assert that the Holy Spirit is leading them and revealing these deeper meanings. Another Apostle, Peter, tells us what is really going on (2 Peter 3:16-18).

Peter is telling his readers about the Day of The Lord, and how they should live in preparation for that day. Let's read it:

Seeing then that all these things are to be destroyed, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, while you are waiting for and desiring the coming of the day of God...

...Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. Keep in mind that the patience of our Lord means salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul has also written to you according to the wisdom given to him. As in all his letters, he writes about these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable distort, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Those who distort Paul's writings particularly in those things that are "hard to understand", lead people to evil. That's why destruction awaits them.
Gnostics distorted Paul writings, leading people to believe that an illuminated elite had the knowledge that could save them. Once that knowledge was acquired, they could live as they wished, with no morals. They could not sin anymore. Others, on the contrary, rejected matter as filthy, rejected sex, good food, and left their families and communities to live in ascetic isolation from the evil world.

 

[Matthias]

No. That's why I say:

• The meaning cannot be contrary to reason and science
• The meaning cannot lead you to do (or approve) evil.

Peter is telling his readers about the Day of The Lord, and how they should live in preparation for that day. Let's read it:

Seeing then that all these things are to be destroyed, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, while you are waiting for and desiring the coming of the day of God...

...Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless. Keep in mind that the patience of our Lord means salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul has also written to you according to the wisdom given to him. As in all his letters, he writes about these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable distort, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Those who distort Paul's writings particularly in those things that are "hard to understand", lead people to evil. That's why destruction awaits them.
Gnostics distorted Paul writings, leading people to believe that an illuminated elite had the knowledge that could save them. Once that knowledge was acquired, they could live as they wished, with no morals. They could not sin anymore. Others, on the contrary, rejected matter as filthy, rejected sex, good food, and left their families and communities to live in ascetic isolation from the evil world.

It is evil to believe that what is false is true. It is evil to cause others to believe that what is false is true.

Evil people can be nice but they are still evil.

 

[Matthias]

“‘Spiritualizing’ the Bible is very dangerous; it has corrupted the truth, making havoc of proper Biblical interpretation of the Bible. It has essentially watered down and emasculated the Bible of the power of the truths of the faith as revealed to the Apostle Paul for ‘the body of Christ’ today. Such mixture corrupts. Only the unadulterated truth has the power God intended for us.”

Part 6 of 24 – The Danger of “Spiritualizing” the Bible | Art Licursi

artlicursi.com

The author mentions Paul specifically but it’s vitally important to point out that what the author says here about Paul is equally said and true about all of the Apostles.

Baha’i -> It isn’t dangerous to spiritualize the Bible. It’s necessary.

Me -> It is very dangerous to spiritualize the Bible. It’s deception.

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles is Baha’i religion more enlightened than Christian religion?

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus himself isn’t returning.” In the eyes of primitive Christianity, that is evil.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is evil to believe that what is false is true. It is evil to cause others to believe that what is false is true.

Your proposition above "it is evil to believe that what is false is true" is false... but that does not make you evil !

Evil is to know that what is false is false, and still act as if it were true.

That's why God overlooks ignorance, but not evil.

Evil people can be nice but they are still evil.

Evil people can appear nice, but cannot be nice.
What I mean is that being nice implies the transformative power of the grace of God in all other aspects of his life.
For example, let's see how Paul describes people who have a form of godliness, but deny, by their actions, its power

Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, slanderers, unrestrained, fierce, despisers of those who are good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Turn away from such people. (2 Tim 3:2-4)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles is Baha’i religion more enlightened than Christian religion?

One of the main tenets of the Baha'i faith is that religion is one.
This means for us that the essential message from God is eternal and manifested in all big religions at its origin.
If you define religion by the relationship of the believer with God, then, quoting Abdul Bahá, "A Christian who genuinely follows Christ is also a Baha'i". In that sense, an individual Christian could be more "enlightened" than an individual baha'i. This means, a Christian could be walking under the Light while a baha'i could be still in darkness.

Now, if you mean the specific teachings of God for this age, yes, I do believe that Baha'i Faith is more relevant, advanced, or complete. That's why I am a Baha'i.

 

[Matthias]

Your proposition above "it is evil to believe that what is false is true" is false... but that does not make you evil !

Evil is to know that what is false is false, and still act as if it were true.

That's why God overlooks ignorance, but not evil.

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands everyone to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

(Acts 17:30-31, NIV)

God isn’t overlooking ignorance now.

Evil people can appear nice, but cannot be nice.
What I mean is that being nice implies the transformative power of the grace of God in all other aspects of his life.
For example, let's see how Paul describes people who have a form of godliness, but deny, by their actions, its power

Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, slanderers, unrestrained, fierce, despisers of those who are good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Turn away from such people. (2 Tim 3:2-4)

 

[Matthias]

One of the main tenets of the Baha'i faith is that religion is one.
This means for us that the essential message from God is eternal and manifested in all big religions at its origin.
If you define religion by the relationship of the believer with God, then, quoting Abdul Bahá, "A Christian who genuinely follows Christ is also a Baha'i".

I’m not a Baha’i. If what Baha says is true then the implication is that I am not genuinely following Christ.

What Baha says is false.

Now, if you mean the specific teachings of God for this age, yes, I do believe that Baha'i Faith is more relevant, advanced, or complete. That's why I am a Baha'i.

Your testimony then to our Christian readers is that Baha’i faith is “more relevant, advanced, or complete.” In other words, Baha’i faith is > Christian faith.

To personalize it, Baha’i faith is much > my primitive Christian faith.

Paul is a primitive Christian. So too are all of the Apostles and the earliest Christians.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God isn’t overlooking ignorance now.

Why do you say that?
As long as ignorance exists, God overlooks it.
For the people of Athens listening to Paul, at that moment, their ignorance about the superstitious cult of idols was ending, and they were going to be held accountable from that moment on... But billions still live in ignorance about many things.
Things they have not heard.
Things they have heard, but not reflected upon.
Things they have reflected upon, but not understood.


Matthias:

1. Do you accept that you could be ignorant, right now, about religious truths that other people are not? I do.
2. Do you accept that you could be considering as false something that is true, or viceversa? I do.
3. Do you accept that you could be in the situations #1 and #2 above, and still be living under the grace of God? I do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’m not a Baha’i. If what Baha says is true then the implication is that I am not genuinely following Christ.

What Baha says is false.

No sir. Please re-read my post.
I am providing a very particular definition by which you are a baha'i. Only under that definition you are.
Under other definitions, you are not.

In this Forum, you are a Christian under one definition... but you are not under another definition. Who knows how many definitions of a Christian coexist in this Forum.

 

[Matthias]

Why do you say that?
As long as ignorance exists, God overlooks it.
For the people of Athens listening to Paul, at that moment, their ignorance about the superstitious cult of idols was ending, and they were going to be held accountable from that moment on... But billions still live in ignorance about many things.
Things they have not heard.
Things they have heard, but not reflected upon.
Things they have reflected upon, but not understood.


Matthias:

1. Do you accept that you could be ignorant, right now, about religious truths that other people are not? I do.
2. Do you accept that you could be considering as false something that is true, or viceversa? I do.
3. Do you accept that you could be in the situations #1 and #2 above, and still be living under the grace of God? I do.

You’re speaking to Paul, the Apostles, and the earliest Christians.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your testimony then to our Christian readers is that Baha’i faith is “more relevant, advanced, or complete.”

Sure. Otherwise, as I say, I would not be a Baha'i.

 

[Matthias]

No sir. Please re-read my post.
I am providing a very particular definition by which you are a baha'i. Only under that definition you are.
Under other definitions, you are not.

I’m not defined by Baha’i faith. I’m defined by the Messiah’s faith.

In this Forum, you are a Christian under one definition... but you are not under another definition. Who knows how many definitions of a Christian coexist in this Forum.

 

[Matthias]

Sure. Otherwise, as I say, I would not be a Baha'i.

I’m pointing out to our readers that you’re a non-Christian who is using, in fact misusing, the Bible and your use / misuse - I’ll even go so far as to say, abuse - of the scriptures has produced a non-Christian faith / religion - which was not, is not, and never will be the intention of the one true God.

It’s a salvation issue.

 

[Matthias]

“Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints.”

(Jude 1:3, WEB)

The faith that Jude is speaking about isn’t the Baha’i faith. The faith that Jude is speaking about is the primitive Christian faith.

Baha’i faith, as has been faithfully, loyally, conscientiously described by @Pancho Frijoles, is “more relevant, advanced, or complete” than the primitive Christian faith of Jude, in particular, and primitive Christianity, in general. The Baha’i faith is not the faith which is “once and for all delivered to the saints” in the 1st century.

I’m not contending earnestly for the Baha’i faith. I’m contending earnestly for Jude’s (primitive Christian, 1st century) faith.

P.S.

This is a spiritual battle. There is no genuine Christian who is also a Baha’i.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You’re speaking to Paul, the Apostles, and the earliest Christians.

I'm speaking to someone who is even more important to me than Paul, the apostles and the earliest Christians.
They are dead, but you are alive.
You are the focus of my attention and respect, and whatever I do to you I do it to Christ.

Please keep the questions below "for a rainy day", as something I suggest for your personal reflection, if you deem it appropriate.
I encourage our readers to ask themselves these questions as well.
For the record, Pancho's personal answer to all these 3 questions would be "Yes, I do"

1. Do you accept that you could be unaware, right now, of religious truths that other people are aware of?
2. Do you accept that you could be mistaken in your consideration of any religious truth?
3. Do you accept that you could be in the situations #1 and #2 above, and still be living under the grace of God?