The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[Matthias]

Nobody is negotiating. I agree it is a take it or leave it proposition.

Precisely. You’re out. I’m not going out. I’m inviting you in.

You could have addressed the topic, say, by asking the readers whether the preterist position is right or wrong. Whether Jesus came somehow in 70 DC or not.
That could have been an approach.

That doesn’t address my target.

You chose to approach the topic from the perspective of baha'i vs early christianity.
You chose to open the thread in an apologetic subforum and tag me calling my attention to it.

That’s right.

So, it is all natural that I expose the baha'i position and defend it in those occasions when I think it is being misrepresented.

Agreed.

In general, you have not misrepresented it.

I’ve used Baha’i teaching from Baha’i sources. If there is any misrepresentation then it‘s the Baha’i sources which are responsible. That’s why I requested confirmation from you, as well as any correction of the Baha’i sources which you wanted to make. It’s important, to put it mildly, for my apology that the Baha’i sources are credible and accurate.

What you have said about what we believe is pretty much accurate.
We both have been honest and that's why we are still talking.

 

[Matthias]

May the Holy Spirit remain always with all of us.

That’s something which Christians would say among and about themselves, not in an unqualified way about non-Christians.

If the Holy Spirit is working with a non-Christian it is to draw the non-Christian to the Christian faith.

 

[Jay Ross]

The "return of Christ what does it mean?"

It means that anyone who has taken root in the God's Fertile soil will gain everlasting life while those who have not taken root in God's fertile field will be case out into the lake of Fire which is the second death.

The perinate question that need to be asked is, "How can I take root in God's fertile soil?" The answer is simple. Just believe that Christ is the Son of God, allow the scattered seed to die, by sending out roots into His fertile soil and gain Life everlasting while remaining firmly rooted in His fertile soil.

Oh well, I can only be responsible for my decisions in this regard and everybody else is responsible for the decisions that they will make.

My decisions remain with me after I die and cannot be changed before the Final Judgement occurs. I have no voice to plead for my salvation at this final judgement as the record books are opened to reveal whether I am to be judged as either righteous or unrighteous, as the record of my life is recorded when I die. When I am judged righteous in the opened books, I will receive possession of the whole earth. However, if I am recorded as being unrighteous when I die I will be dispatched with undue haste into the lake of fire which is the second death written about in Genesis 2:17 for those who can see the mysteries of the second death in that verse.

Oh well, I trust that my decision to embrace Christ as my only hope of salvation I am able to hold onto right up and until I die.

Shalom

 

[Matthias]

The "return of Christ what does it mean?"

It means that anyone who has taken root in the God's Fertile soil will gain everlasting life while those who have not taken root in God's fertile field will be case out into the lake of Fire which is the second death.

The perinate question that need to be asked is, "How can I take root in God's fertile soil?" The answer is simple. Just believe that Christ is the Son of God, allow the scattered seed to die, by sending out roots into His fertile soil and gain Life everlasting while remaining firmly rooted in His fertile soil.

Do you think the Baha’i religion is rooted in that soil? @Pancho Frijoles does.

Oh well, I can only be responsible for my decisions in this regard and everybody else is responsible for the decisions that they will make.

My decisions remain with me after I die and cannot be changed before the Final Judgement occurs. I have no voice to plead for my salvation at this final judgement as the record books are opened to reveal whether I am to be judged as either righteous or unrighteous, as the record of my life is recorded when I die. When I am judged righteous in the opened books, I will receive possession of the whole earth. However, if I am recorded as being unrighteous when I die I will be dispatched with undue haste into the lake of fire which is the second death written about in Genesis 2:17 for those who can see the mysteries of the second death in that verse.

Oh well, I trust that my decision to embrace Christ as my only hope of salvation I am able to hold onto right up and until I die.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Do you think the Baha’i religion is rooted in that soil? @Pancho Frijoles does.

I am not qualified to make that judgement.

Shalom

 

[Matthias]

I am not qualified to make that judgement.

Shalom

A disciple of the Messiah should be able to discern. The Baha’i has forthrightly said that it is the same words but not the same meaning. Is it the good works that he performs with and for his fellow man that causes you to be unsure?

 

[Jay Ross]

A disciple of the Messiah should be able to discern. The Baha’i has forthrightly said that it is the same words but not the same meaning. Is it the good works that he performs with and for his fellow man that causes you to be unsure?

That is true, we can discern God's truth, but we are still not qualified to judge each other. Scripture tells us that if we as Christians judge other that we to will be judged to the same standard or harder.

I said that I was not qualified to judge. I did so because I had not studied the Baha’i religion or read their sacred writings.

All that I can do is to prayerfully ask God to include @Pancho Frijoles among those whom He is drawing to Himself, and to then, when I am prompted, to thank God that He has heard my prayer and is working on my request. The final outcome is Pancho Frijoles alone to make in response to God drawing Pancho to Himself. Whether He response favourably to God is His choice to make and if he does then I am sure that God will help him to renew his mind and to put on the refurbished personhood that God has intended him to become since the beginning of time.

Shalom

 

[Matthias]

That is true, we can discern God's truth, but we are still not qualified to judge each other. Scripture tells us that if we as Christians judge other that we to will be judged to the same standard or harder.

I said that I was not qualified to judge. I did so because I had not studied the Baha’i religion or read their sacred writings.

All that I can do is to prayerfully ask God to include @Pancho Frijoles among those whom He is drawing to Himself, and to then, when I am prompted, to thank God that He has heard my prayer and is working on my request. The final outcome is Pancho Frijoles alone to make in response to God drawing Pancho to Himself. Whether He response favourably to God is His choice to make and if he does then I am sure that God will help him to renew his mind and to put on the refurbished personhood that God has intended him to become since the beginning of time.

Shalom

Thanks. You must not have had a chance yet to read @Pancho Frijoles personal testimony.

 

[Matthias]

“‘Spiritualizing’ the Bible is very dangerous; it has corrupted the truth, making havoc of proper Biblical interpretation of the Bible. It has essentially watered down and emasculated the Bible of the power of the truths of the faith as revealed to the Apostle Paul for ‘the body of Christ’ today. Such mixture corrupts. Only the unadulterated truth has the power God intended for us.”

Part 6 of 24 – The Danger of “Spiritualizing” the Bible | Art Licursi

artlicursi.com

The author mentions Paul specifically but it’s vitally important to point out that what the author says here about Paul is equally said and true about all of the Apostles.

Baha’i -> It isn’t dangerous to spiritualize the Bible. It’s necessary.

Me -> It is very dangerous to spiritualize the Bible. It’s deception.

“By its very nature, the allegorizing of a biblical text necessitates the minimization or even outright dismissal of the text’s authorial intent and historical context.” - Brad Klassen

This is how the Baha’i religion (and oftentimes even the Christian religion, too - Origen is the master of spiritualizing biblical texts) interprets biblical texts - allegorically; spiritualizing them. This is the method of interpretation which tramples the historical-grammatical method of interpretation.

The search for hidden meanings where there are no hidden meanings finds hidden meanings.

 

[Matthias]

“It was the great English Baptist Charles Spurgeon who said, ‘The arch-enemy of truth has invited us to level our walls and take away our fenced cities.’

Beware of voices who would aim at lowering the bar on theological precision and confessional clarity.” - Josh Buice

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“Some words mean different things” = the words are the same but the meaning is different.

 

[Matthias]

“The return of Christ” - the words of the primitive Christian religion.

”The return of Christ” - the words of the Baha’i religion.

The words are the same but the meaning is different.

Jesus Christ himself is returning. - the primitive Christian message.

Jesus Christ himself is not returning. - the Baha’i message.

Jesus Christ himself hasn’t returned yet but he will return. - the primitive Christian message.

Christ has returned. Baha’u’llah is the returned Christ. - the Baha’i message.

@Pancho Frijoles hasn’t tried to conceal that the words are the same but the meaning is different from anyone. (See post #136.) Listen to him. Believe him when he tells you “same words, different meaning”. He’s telling you the truth. The man is honest about it.

 

[Matthias]

The words of truth spoken in love will sound like a personal attack to the ears of those who are lost and in error. This is seen often in the scriptures.

“The world is so in love with lies that the truth feels like hate.” - Shane Pruitt

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This pastor is expressing a sound biblical principle.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That’s something which Christians would say among and about themselves, not in an unqualified way about non-Christians.

Don’t we first have to define what a “Christian” is???

Is calling yourself, (or imagining yourself to be) one, all there is to qualifying by the criteria laid down by the “Lord” Jesus and the Scripture he left for all of us to compare what we believe, to what he taught (as opposed to what Christendom claims that he taught)? Do we accept his teachings, and uphold them…all of them…..not just the convenient ones that suit us?

Are we confident in the early church system that gave birth to the divided churches of Christendom?

What therefore is the criteria for salvation?…..if Jesus comes as judge and says to those “so called Christians”….”I NEVER KNEW YOU”, (Matt 7:21-23) when they offer their excuses to him at the judgment…

How will we feel if it is we who are on the receiving end of that rejection, because we have failed in the important aspects of that identification. It means that we believed the wrong people and that our conviction was worth nothing because we were convinced of things by our own free will….that were not true.…and no song and dance will make them true.

One important aspect that identifies true Christians from the ‘counterfeits’ (weeds) that Jesus said we could expect to see after the death of the apostles….is John 17:3….
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
Who has come to really “know” God and his “only begotten son” from the one manufactured in the fractured church system that emerged from the corrupted mother Church of the Roman Empire?
How can anyone take their doctrines from such an evil source?…..yet the majority do so without thinking twice about it.
The churches will unitedly pray the Lord’s Prayer…..and yet never know what it is that they have been parroting off all their lives. True Christians know exactly what the Lord’s Prayer is about…and that is why they never repeat it.

If the Holy Spirit is working with a non-Christian it is to draw the non-Christian to the Christian faith.

And which “Christian” church would they be drawn to? The choices are so numerous and the differences so many that all they would see is confusion.

The holy spirit does not speak with a forked tongue…..it’s the other fella who does that.

 

[Taken]

The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

Begin at the Beginning of the Knowledge Revealed…

* Gods WORD, has come forth out from Gods Mouth (while remaining IN God) since the Beginning of Creation.

* Gods WORD, was ONLY KNOWN, as Gods WORD.

* God revealed the Knowledge, Gods WORD (God called a Holy Thing) would come forth out of Gods Mouth and be SENT to a PLACE of Gods choosing.

* God revealed God SENT His WORD to a particular Virgin Womb, and dictated via Gods Angel Servant, that Once His WORD was Revealed, in this World, in the Likeness AS a man babe, He would be Called a man, Son of man, Called by the Name, JESUS.

* God further revealed (via His Angelic Servant) that SAME child, as an adult, would be Called by the title, Son of God.

* As an adult, this SAME man, was recognized, ALSO CALLED, teacher, rabbi, Lord, Lamb, Savior, Salvation, maker, light, truth, life, way, friend, etc.

* Shortly BEFORE Finishing His JOURNEY from Heaven TO Earth…it was Revealed BY God IN Heaven, to the ears of chosen Disciple Simon Barjona, that THIS JESUS…IS the Christ Messiah of God.

* Disciple Simon Barjona Peter repeated aloud what he Heard from God…to the ears of the rest of the Disciples, who immediately concurred.

* JESUS cautioned the Disciples to “TELL NO ONE”, JESUS is the Christ…but oops, they could not restrain themselves, and repeated to other men…JESUS IS the CHRIST MESSIAH, God had promised to SEND.

So…….WHO CAME to EARTH?
JESUS called the Son of Man.

WHO Left the Earth, with the PROMISE to Return ?
JESUS called the Son of Man…with the Revealed Knowledge He IS the CHRIST Messiah.

WHAT IS Gods CHRIST Messiah ?
Gods POWER
Gods WISDOM

WHO RETURNED to Heaven?
Son of Man.
The Lord.
The Lamb.
The Christ.

WHO descends From Heaven TO the Clouds.
(Clouds is NOT Earth)?
….the Lord.

WHO descends From Heaven TO the Lower Heaven (HOLY GROUND) top of mt. Zion (Sion)?
….the Lamb

WHO descends from the Clouds to sit atop a SINGLE white Cloud of the lower heavens for ALL mens eyes to SEE?
….the ONE who WAS on Earth…
….The LIKENESS AS A man, Called the Son of God.

IN the Air…not YET ON Earth——>

Rev 19:
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Jesus…the Word of God…Christ the Power of God….ON Earth [/B]
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The WORD of God, came to Earth, left Earth…SHALL return to Earth, AS He left…
IS the Word of God…with Power.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

You guys confuse yourselves with your multiple theories.
Have you not read that Jesus had a glorified human body after his resurrection. This same body is promised all who are resurrected when he returns. It is a body without the limitations of the body we now possess but a fleshly body nevertheless.

Jesus ate fish and walked through walls and invited his mates to handle and touch him to verify this fact. He visited his Father in Heaven returning to his disciples to spend another forty days with them. He vanished from the sight of the guys he met on the Emmaus road and with the same fleshly body ascended to his Father from which we await his return in the same body.

Have you not read the straight forward record which we have at our disposal? or is it preferred to bend these records to suit our preconceptions, our theories and the structures we have built?

 

[Matthias]

No bodily resurrection of Christ. Where then is the body? What happened to it? The New Testament tells us what the unbelieving Jews said happened to it (Matthew 28:12-15).

Jesus of Nazareth was dead. The unbelieving Jews (and the Romans) were convinced of that. So, too, were the believing Jews.

Jesus of Nazareth has been resurrected to life. He was dead. He is alive now. The believing Jews were convinced of that. What is their proof? They had the living body. The man, the human person, was literally in their midst. They are the true witnesses.

The New Testament stands or falls on their witness of the bodily resurrected Christ.

The guarded tomb contained the natural body. It was there late on Friday. It was not there later in the morning on Sunday.

@Pancho Frijoles what does Baha’i say concerning where the natural body placed in the tomb is?

P.S.

The sign of Jonah

”Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, ‘Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.‘ He said to them, ‘An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah the prophet was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.’”

(Matthew 12:38-40, NABRE)

 

[Matthias]

One of the main tenets of the Baha'i faith is that religion is one.
This means for us that the essential message from God is eternal and manifested in all big religions at its origin.

This main tenet of the Baha’i religion isn’t the tenet of primitive Christianity. They are irreconcilable and incompatible principles.

 

[Matthias]

If Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t bodily resurrected from gravedom then no one ever will be.

 

[PS95]

If Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t bodily resurrected from gravedom then no one ever will be.

​

1 Corinthians 15:14-20​

​

14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.​

Amen.

John 2:21
"But He was speaking about the temple of His body."

Did He lie?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

“Return.” What does it mean? Is it literal or is it only symbolic?

Just an opinion… consider those words “return” is it literal or it’s it only symbolic?

We are given what is symbolic …symbols or shadows of what is True and Real. For example:

Circumcision made with hands…symbolic…of that circumcision “made without hands and of God”
Temples made with hands …symbolic…not the true Temple…but a symbol of that True Temple made without hands and built of God.
Noah’s ark…a symbol of…Christ The True Ark.
Abraham taking Isaac up the hill to be sacrificed…a symbol… “symbolic” of …for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
John the Baptist…he was not the true light but sent to testify of that True Light…symbolic of, testifying …Christ, is the True Light.
…point is how can His return be only symbolic? When the symbol is first…a shadow or symbol that tells of that which comes after and is of God… which is the Real and True?