The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[Pancho Frijoles]

The guarded tomb contained the natural body. It was there late on Friday. It was not there later in the morning on Sunday.

@Pancho Frijoles what does Baha’i say concerning where the natural body placed in the tomb is?

P.S.

The sign of Jonah

”Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, ‘Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.‘ He said to them, ‘An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah the prophet was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.’”

(Matthew 12:38-40, NABRE)

Good morning, Matthias

I have not read any reference to the natural body of Jesus in Baha'is writings.
The sign of Jonah is similar to the sign of Jesus, and that's why Jesus used that example.
There is no state of separation from God, no abyss, no defeat, no hell, no prison, no situation, however irreversible it may look, from which God cannot rescue us.

We don't believe Jonah was expelled literally from the belly of a whale, and by the same token we don't consider that Jesus came out literally, bodily, from a grave.
I deeply respect all believers who take those stories as literal. To me, what is important for salvation is to grasp the meaning of those stories and apply them to our life, in the same way Paul applied them to the life of a believer who has been raised with Jesus and ascended with Him to celestial places.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This main tenet of the Baha’i religion isn’t the tenet of primitive Christianity.

You're right

They are irreconcilable and incompatible principles.

Which principles are you comparing? One of them is the Oneness of Religion... and the other one, that you find irreconcilable and incompatible with the first one?

 

[Matthias]

Good morning, Matthias

I have not read any reference to the natural body of Jesus in Baha'is writings.

My conclusion would be that the natural body of Jesus doesn’t play a prominent role in Baha’i theology.

The sign of Jonah is similar to the sign of Jesus, and that's why Jesus used that example.
There is no state of separation from God, no abyss, no defeat, no hell, no prison, no situation, however irreversible it may look, from which God cannot rescue us.

Agreed.*

We don't believe Jonah was expelled literally from the belly of a whale, and by the same token we don't consider that Jesus came out literally, bodily, from a grave.

That’s an important point. Do Bahai’s then not believe that Jesus was literally, bodily, placed in the tomb?

I deeply respect all believers who take those stories as literal. To me, what is important for salvation is to grasp the meaning of those stories and apply them to our life.

* With one exception: the destruction in the lake of fire; the second death. That’s the permanent cessation of existence.

 

[Matthias]

You're right

Which principles are you comparing? One of them is the Oneness of Religion... and the other one, that you find irreconcilable and incompatible with the first one?

I was referring to the respective tenets as the principles. I’m sorry that it wasn’t clear in my post.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And which “Christian” church would they be drawn to? The choices are so numerous and the differences so many that all they would see is confusion.

You've brought a very good point, Aunty.

There are numerous creeds within Christianty.
In several cases, one group does not recognize other group as Christians.
If an atheist is drawn to become a Jehovah Witness, a Mormon, a Catholic, a Unitarian, a non-structured Quaker, an Ethiopian Coptic, a Messianic Jew, a member of Christian Science, was that atheist drawn by the Holy Spirit?

To me, whoever is drawn to the life Christ taught us to live, is guided by the Holy Spirit.
The devil could never do that, according to Jesus Himself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My conclusion would be that the natural body of Jesus doesn’t play a prominent role in Baha’i theology.

Not as prominent as in Christianism, that's right. But not only Jesus body... rather all bodies.
Bodies are a sacred, beautiful gift from God. But salvation is about our souls.
When the soul is saved by God, the body (and material conditions around that body) get many benefits as a consequence.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, we believe that the Kingdom is established spiritually at the heart, but also in the material world. The Second Coming of Christ, represented in the mission of Bahá'u'lláh, changes civilization radically, also in economy, science, politics, human rights, interactions among nations, communication, etc
We see this intimate connection between the spiritual and the material, in contrast with Gnostics.

***

Eating frijoles (beans) is something I like very much (hence my nickname). Something that nurtures my body. However, I don't need to eat frijoles forever to experience the joy of the presence of God. My hope is not in the permanence of a digestive system of any kind.
I don't think that my faith is in vain without a physical body. My faith would be useless if I thought that Christ had been defeated on the cross, or if I thought that his Words had been silenced in the grave.
It is in that sense that I interpret that if Christ didn't raise from the dead, our faith is in vain.

 

[Matthias]

Not as prominent as in Christianism, that's right. But not only Jesus body... rather all bodies.

Another very important point. Baha’i is a different theology of the body, and therefore of the person.

Bodies are a sacred, beautiful gift from God. But salvation is about our souls.

All persons are souls. Salvation is about us.

When the soul is saved by God, the body (and material conditions around that body) get many benefits as a consequence.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, we believe that the Kingdom is established spiritually at the heart, but also in the material world. The Second Coming of Christ, represented in the mission of Bahá'u'lláh, changes civilization radically, also in economy, science, politics, human rights, interactions among nations, communication, etc
We see this intimate connection between the spiritual and the material, in contrast with Gnostics.

Primitive Christianity believes that the kingdom will be established on the earth - a physical location, where we are right now - when Jesus himself returns. The kingdom of God is government of the world by Jesus himself and by those themselves who belong to him. That’s a future event, not a present circumstance.

***

Eating frijoles (beans) is something I like very much (hence my nickname). Something that nurtures my body. However, I don't need to eat frijoles forever to experience the joy of the presence of God. My hope is not in the permanence of a digestive system of any kind.

The resurrected Jesus ate fish with his disciples before ascending into heaven. That’s a physical act.

Do Bahai’s not believe in the literal, physical, ascension of Jesus?

I don't think that my faith is in vain without a physical body. My faith would be useless if I thought that Christ had been defeated on the cross, or if I thought that his Words had been silenced in the grave.
It is in that sense that I interpret that if Christ didn't raise from the dead, our faith is in vain.



View attachment 47215

Christ wasn’t defeated on the cross. God vindicated him by resurrecting him back to life.

 

[Matthias]

The end of the evil age we are living in is marked by the physical return of Jesus Messiah himself.

The life of Baha’u’llah did not mark the end of this evil age. It is still all around us and is growing worse every day.

 

[Matthias]

Tell me about it, please.

Every human person has a beginning, an origin, a genesis, in history and time. That is a constraint of history.

In my daily BRP yesterday, I read again (for those who are tempted to ask me if I have ever read the Bible) about the constraint of history as it relates to Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew 1:1 begins the New Testament discussion / witness to the genesis of the Messiah.

As a primitive Christian, I‘m constrained by his history.

That is what the book is about. (Be alert here. I’m making an intentional play on word.)

 

[Matthias]

While I wait for your reply @Pancho Frijoles, lunch.

My wife is away from home this week and your talk this morning about eating beans has inspired my noon meal dining pleasure: A big beef and bean burrito. :)

P.S.

And I saw the burrito that I warmed up in the microwave oven was good and did eat it. It was delicious, but it wasn’t as delicious as the very good burritos I’ve eaten while on trips in Mexico. ;)

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles do you know what a haint is?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Another very important point. Baha’i is a different theology of the body, and therefore of the person.



All persons are souls. Salvation is about us.

We can probably agree that a person continues to be a person even when he has lost many of his/her body functions.
For example, her ability to walk, talk, see, hear.
We can probably agree that a person keeps being a person even if she has developed dementia and is unable to recognize their relatives or remember what she did five minutes ago. In other words, even if many of her brain functions are damaged.

Now, some people think that the mind is the product of brain activity, so that when the brain ceases to function, conscience disappears.
I respect that as there is plausible evidence around this.
However, the idea that conscience does not need a brain is also compatible with what we know about neurosciences and the formal, serious study of Near-Death Experiences.

Do Bahai’s not believe in the literal, physical, ascension of Jesus?

We don't take this literally as a body flying up through the atmosphere.
We often use the term "ascension" in reference to Messengers of God who have gone from this contingent world to the realm of the eternal.

Christ wasn’t defeated on the cross. God vindicated him by resurrecting him back to life.

For people who didn't believe in Him, he was defeated because his claims about a Kingdom or about being a Messiah had been frustrated. They took Him as another false messiah of those times, who have ended executed by the Romans.

I will share my perspective on this:

For the unbelievers, the death of Jesus was the proof that there was no kingdom, no King of David, no Father in heaven protecting his Son. Rome stilled ruled, daily life was business as usual, and Israel was still corrupt, weak and insignificant.
To be honest, the disciples themselves were also very frustrated and dubitative, as we can read in the story of two of them going to Emaus.

For Israel, defeat was not about biological death. It was expected as a natural thing. Everyone died. Saints and sinners, the wealthy and the poor, prophets and prostitutes. So, the concern around Jesus death was not about the defeat of a Man, but about the defeat of a Cause. If Jesus was dead, then all promises around a Kingdom, and the conditions to get into that Kingdom, were a lie and could be disregarded.
Resurrection provides the correct answer: "Jesus lives, and He will return as a King!".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles do you know what a haint is?

No, Matthias.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The life of Baha’u’llah did not mark the end of this evil age. It is still all around us and is growing worse every day.

In fact, data show that this era is by far ( I repeat: by far. Let me repeat it again: BY FAR) the best in all human history.
It is radically different in all aspects.

For sure, evil is rampant in certain aspects and geographies. For sure, the challenges and perils are huge.
Still, this era is the best.

I'm talking here about hard data.
Still, we can start with some soft data

Anyone who doubts about this being the best era ever in human history, I advise these two informal checks

• Go to the kitchen and open your freezer. Why aren't you worried on whether you will have something to eat tomorrow?
• Open the faucet and drink a glass of water. How did this water come just to your glass? Why aren't you worried of cholera?
• Review your posts in this Forum. Why aren't you worried on whether you will be arrested and executed due to your religious convictions?
• Look at my photo, on the left upper corner of this post. How can we talk about God at real time when we live thousands of kilometers apart?
• Notice in which language I'm writing. How come we can understand each other, if I was raised speaking Spanish?
• Drive to Louisville, then to Cincinnatti, Columbus, all the way to Pittsburgh and stop in Philadelphia. Think: Why weren't you assaulted and murdered in the highway? What was the likelihood of being robbed and murdered?
• Go to the supermarket. Do you see that bald young lady, pushing a cart and reading the nutritional information from a bottle of youghurt? Well, she's not bald. She's under chemotherapy for her metastatic breast cancer. Why is she alive and in the supermarket?
• Go to the WC, do your business and flush the toilet. Your poop has disappeared. Is it real?
• Make love to your wife. Why isn't she afraid or ashamed to say that she liked it or didn't like it? Why isn't she afraid about getting pregnant? Why isn't she afraid of starvation if you happen to die tonight?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Look at this graph. I took it from here and it is based on data from "Our World in Data".
You can find a lot of this graphs in Matt Ridley's magnificent book: "The Rational Optimist".
The changes started pretty much around the Ascencion of Bah'au'lláh.
What is more striking is what is NOT shown here due to the time scale: Namely, that conditions had been the same for hundreds and thousands of years.
From the time the Bible started to be written, there has been no major change in world conditions compared to the changes we are witnessing now, in front of our eyes. I'm not talking, again, about subtle improvements, but about HUGE, IMPRESSIVE, UNEXPLAINABLE changes.
Another big change that is not depicted in the graph: the return of the Jews to Holy Land.

 

[Matthias]

No, Matthias.

A haint is a restless disembodied spirit.

We didn’t talk about ghosts where I was raised in Eastern Kentucky. We talked about haints. A haint is another name for a ghost.

A haint. He ain't got no physical body.

Bahai Jesus doesn’t have a physical body. He‘s a haint / a ghost.

”While they were saying these things, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ But they were startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost [haint]. Then he said to them, ‘Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet; it’s me! Touch me and see; a ghost [haint] does not have flesh and bones like you see I have.‘ When he had said this he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still could not believe it (because if their joy) and were amazed, he said to them, ‘Do you have anything to eat?’ So they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in front of them.”

(Luke 24:36-43, NET)

The resurrected Jesus isn’t a haint. He isn’t a disembodied spirit.

“Then Jesus led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands, he blessed them. Now during the blessing he departed and was taken up into heaven.“

(Luke 24:50-51)

It wasn’t a haint that ascended into heaven. It wasn’t a disembodied spirit. It was the bodily resurrected human person, the biblical, the historical, Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Matthias]

In fact, data show that this era is by far ( I repeat: by far. Let me repeat it again: BY FAR) the best in all human history.
It is radically different in all aspects.

Repetition for emphasis. I get the point, but it’s not persuasive. Society, worldwide, is rapidly coming apart at the seams. We’re nearing the end of the line for what the Bible calls “the present evil age”.

For sure, evil is rampant in certain aspects and geographies. For sure, the challenges and perils are huge.
Still, this era is the best.

There is no comparison between this era and the era that is coming when Jesus himself returns and begins governing the world.

I'm talking here about hard data.
Still, we can start with some soft data

Anyone who doubts about this being the best era ever in human history, I advise these two informal checks

• Go to the kitchen and open your freezer. Why aren't you worried on whether you will have something to eat tomorrow?
• Open the faucet and drink a glass of water. How did this water come just to your glass? Why aren't you worried of cholera?
• Review your posts in this Forum. Why aren't you worried on whether you will be arrested and executed due to your religious convictions?
• Look at my photo, on the left upper corner of this post. How can we talk about God at real time when we live thousands of kilometers apart?
• Notice in which language I'm writing. How come we can understand each other, if I was raised speaking Spanish?
• Drive to Louisville, then to Cincinnatti, Columbus, all the way to Pittsburgh and stop in Philadelphia. Think: Why weren't you assaulted and murdered in the highway? What was the likelihood of being robbed and murdered?
• Go to the supermarket. Do you see that bald young lady, pushing a cart and reading the nutritional information from a bottle of youghurt? Well, she's not bald. She's under chemotherapy for her metastatic breast cancer. Why is she alive and in the supermarket?
• Go to the WC, do your business and flush the toilet. Your poop has disappeared. Is it real?
• Make love to your wife. Why isn't she afraid or ashamed to say that she liked it or didn't like it? Why isn't she afraid about getting pregnant? Why isn't she afraid of starvation if you happen to die tonight?

The U.S. - the most powerful nation in the world - is in decline. It’s collapsing. Prices of all consumer goods are out of control. The U.S. is so far in debt that it will never get out of it. Afraid? Yes, people are afraid. It’s all crumbling down around us.

 

[Matthias]

Look at this graph. I took it from here and it is based on data from "Our World in Data".
You can find a lot of this graphs in Matt Ridley's magnificent book: "The Rational Optimist".
The changes started pretty much around the Ascencion of Bah'au'lláh.
What is more striking is what is NOT shown here due to the time scale: Namely, that conditions had been the same for hundreds and thousands of years.
From the time the Bible started to be written, there has been no major change in world conditions compared to the changes we are witnessing now, in front of our eyes. I'm not talking, again, about subtle improvements, but about HUGE, IMPRESSIVE, UNEXPLAINABLE changes.
Another big change that is not depicted in the graph: the return of the Jews to Holy Land.

View attachment 47225

Now show the coming collapse that scripture talks about.

Apparently Baha’i belief is that this age is going to get better and better. Scripture paints a different picture - man waxing worse and worse.

The world is headed for a major disaster on a global scale. If Jesus himself doesn’t return, if these perilous days will not be cut short, no one will be left alive (Matthew 24).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Now show the coming collapse.

Can you show it?

We can only show data collected retrospectively.
So, your speculations about the future, although respectable, cannot beat hard data about the present and the past, and about the trends we are observing.

By faith, I believe there will be a collapse, noisy and painful: the collapse of the old world that is the natural consequence of the victory of the Kingdom of God. As the world sinks, the world emerges. The old is destroyed by the new. We can't speak about a collapse without speaking, at the same time, and for the same reasons, about the triumph of God. Let's not despair. The Kingdom is already here, among us.
Rejoice and work, propelled by such joy!

You watched until a stone was cut out without hands which struck the image upon its feet, which were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together... and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

...In the days of these kings the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to another people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever

 

[Matthias]

Can you show it?

In scripture.

We can only show data collected retrospectively.
So, your speculations about the future, although respectable, cannot beat hard data about the present and the past, and about the trends we are observing.

Just like in the days of Noah …

By faith, I believe there will be a collapse, noisy and painful: the collapse of the old world that is the natural consequence of the victory of the Kingdom of God. As the world sinks, the world emerges. The old is destroyed by the new. We can't speak about a collapse without speaking, at the same time, and for the same reasons, about the triumph of God. Let's not despair. The Kingdom is already here, among us.
Rejoice and work, propelled by such joy!

You watched until a stone was cut out without hands which struck the image upon its feet, which were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together... and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

...In the days of these kings the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to another people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever

Only Jesus himself coming back will accomplish the establishment of the kingdom of God on the earth … a physical place, not a non-physical “spook house”. A real, physical, government; managing the nations.