The social gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen and welcome to the forum. :)

An awards ceremony? Maybe for some. But others, many others, will suffer loss. That's not a getting something, but a losing something. Like taking their shame and nakedness into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In a great house there are vessels both of honour and dishonour.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

See, Again you have it out of context/

They will suffer loss but they will be saved, even as through fire

I personally would rather be saved with nothing to show. Then be delievered to God for judgment and be lost forever suffering the second death

But I would also rather have some reward to show and not be left with nothing..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"If we think we know we do not yet know as we ought." Selah (think upon it). Gives us all reason for humility and room to grow I think. But one day we will fully know even as we are fully known.

Sadly, some people think they know it all. So their is no room to grow

 

[Eternally Grateful]

saved...into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Spit out, cast away, cut off, found naked...etc...all for vessels of dishonour whose shame and reproach are eternally laid on them.

No one who is saved will suffer this

These are people who are delievered to God because they are condemned,

Jesus tells us why, they did not believe.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Tell me in Galatians there is not …that which is not seen (not yet appeared) yet believed “until Christ be formed in you” ? Is Paul blessed to have not seen —-Christ formed in their desire to be back under the law—yet believe until Christ be formed in them unto Liberty? (You’ll have need of patience.) <Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe.> have not seen what and yet believe?
Galatians 4:16-22 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? [17] They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that you might affect them. [18] But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. [19] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, [20] I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. [21] Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Yes, the Galations had fallen from grace, whoever had gone back under the Law. So Paul had to renew them to the gospel of grace again....by having Christ in them again through faith (not by works of the Law).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not convinced at all that outer darkness means saved. There is only mortality or immortality....kingdom of light or kingdom of darkness.......it's either perish or receive eternal life. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is what those who perish will do when they are thus judged.

Outer darkness is lost

based on unbelief

 

[Lizbeth]

I hope I’m not overthinking it. To me it’s hopeful. Like the verse 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

That is what I see Christ walking in Paul doing toward the Corinthians hardness of heart. Entering in through the vail. It’s hopeful to me even in judge not by sight of that which is seen but that which is not (yet) seen. To me that speaks of God can open the eyes of the blind. what I see is they want proof Christ speaks in Paul…He is given them the evidence, the Hope of what is not seen. The evidence by his works. (They are the same works as Christ: we will gladly be weak that you be made strong, be you made complete) …no? Faith and Hope (in what is unseen) evidenced by works?

Paul keeps telling them that it does not yet appear unto them, how they still see Paul as one who Christ is not speaking in. They are referring to those in Christ as “as those who fail” “reprobate”. Same thing that happened to Christ….accused of God not speaking in Him. It’s not Paul they are calling a fake but the Spirit that speaks through Paul which is Christ.

To me it’s hopeful because what promises God has given unto us to, endure hard ground? To Stand fast in Hope and Faith? Let me ask you this ….the work of God is that you believe on Him who God has sent. Well…God sent Paul with Christ speaking in Paul toward the Corinthians. Isn’t it “This is the work of God that they believe on Him whom God has sent?” Even we have this treasure in an earthen vessel, so the power be of God and not of us. Why else “I trust you will know” …
1 John 4:4-6 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. [5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world hears them. [6] We are of God: he that knows God hears us(this is the work of God); he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Faith is hopeful.....we are saved by faith and saved by hope that faith gives us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You might be overthinking it sister. Faith is faith and works are works. Sometimes it is just talking about one or the other.

The point of that scripture is that faith itself (genuine faith that is not of our own) is the evidence and substance of things not yet seen. Agrees with "Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."

James is telling people to test their faith

Paul said we are saved by Grace through faith not works, But those who have faith WILL (not might) Work

James is telling us to test our faith, if we claim to have faith. But do nto have the works paul said we will have, Can ur claimed faith save us.

as I always say, If you say you trust someone, but NEVER do anything they say, do you really trust them?

well now..

they would not be saved, not because they do not have work, but because they did not have faith

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Too funny. Are people in outer darkness too busy being dead in the lake of fire...you think?

Yes, And they keep tryign to get themselves out instead of letting God get them out

Oh my. A two-dimensional understanding of the bible is all that most can expect in this life. That's enough to learn how to serve others and suffer in silence. But to teach the words of God???

Well you have to know the word to teach it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, the Galations had fallen from grace, whoever had gone back under the Law. So Paul had to renew them to the gospel of grace again....by having Christ in them again through faith (not by works of the Law).

But did they fall from Grace (lose salvation) if did they fall from grace that could have saved them, and need to repent and come to that faith

remember, the problem wiht the galations is they still trusted law. They wanted grace plus law (faith and works)

which is why Paul called them foolish if they thought they began in the spirit (grace) but had to perfect it in the flesh (works of the law or any work really)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faith is hopeful.....we are saved by faith and saved by hope that faith gives us.

Amen

The hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, the Galations had fallen from grace, whoever had gone back under the Law. So Paul had to renew them to the gospel of grace again....by having Christ in them again through faith (not by works of the Law).

You’re missing the point I was trying to make. That there is a working in Galatians of Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But it’s Paul (Christ in Paul) working Faith toward them(which is not weak but is mighty in God) …things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen toward them …for their liberty of “until Christ be formed in them.”

But I’m not trying to persuade you. it’s more me I’m persuading. Just thinking on what is not seen, but we wait and Hope for…

 

[Lizbeth]

Too funny. Are people in outer darkness too busy being dead in the lake of fire...you think?

Oh my. A two-dimensional understanding of the bible is all that most can expect in this life. That's enough to learn how to serve others and suffer in silence. But to teach the words of God???

Well I'm a simple person I guess, in some ways at least. But not two-dimensional, no I wouldn't say so. I know there is height and width and depth to the things of God which are in spirit and am still learning.

That scripture doesn't say the one whose works were burned up (wood hay and stubble) would be cast into outer darkness but so as by fire....it says he would SAVED but so as by fire. Saved = eternal life. As opposed to being appointed to wrath.

These are scriptures about weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness (and by all means check the context of each)......doesn't look like salvation to me so they don't apply to the verse we are talking about:


Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well I'm a simple person I guess, in some ways at least. But not two-dimensional, no I wouldn't say so. I know there is height and width and depth to the things of God which are in spirit and am still learning.

That scripture doesn't say the one whose works were burned up (wood hay and stubble) would be cast into outer darkness but so as by fire....it says he would SAVED but so as by fire. Saved = eternal life. As opposed to being appointed to wrath.

These are scriptures about weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness (and by all means check the context of each)......doesn't look like salvation to me so they don't apply to the verse we are talking about:


Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

I like to look at 1 cor this way.

Imagine you are in a house that caught fire. And you had to escape.

In doing so. You left the house. Where all you had gained was burnt in the fire.

All you had left was what you had on your back.

You were saved, But you were saved by coming through the fire.. you lost everything but your life. Which was saved.

 

[Lizbeth]

I like to look at 1 cor this way.

Imagine you are in a house that caught fire. And you had to escape.

In doing so. You left the house. Where all you had gained was burnt in the fire.

All you had left was what you had on your back.

You were saved, But you were saved by coming through the fire.. you lost everything but your life. Which was saved.

You just answered the question I had! Sounds right to me! Our God is a consuming fire and will burn up everything that is not of Him....that believer is of Him even though all of his works were not, so he himself will not be burned up but still saved.

 

[Lambano]

The writers of the NT translated the word "deror"...liberty as "aphesis". So we have to continue to translate that word in the same way...as liberty.

The LXX writers translated "deror" in Isaiah 61:1 as "aphesis", so in Luke 4:18 where Jesus quotes Isaiah, it is appropriate to translate "aphesis" there as "deliverance" or "release". However, "aphesis" can also mean "forgiveness", so it may or may not be appropriate to translate it the same way every time the verse is used in the NT, by different authors in different contexts. The translation depends on the surrounding context and grammar.

Taking the phrase ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν ("aphesin hamartioon"): The "of" comes from the genitive plural of "hamartia", "sins". "Liberty of sins". Hmm. A couple of phrases the NT authors use to indicate being set free from something is ἐλευθερόω ἀπὸ ("elutheroo apo", Romans 8:2, 8:21) or ῥύομαι ἐκ (ruomai ek, Romans 7:24). I note that here the author uses a prepositional phrase ("apo" and "ek", translated "from" in English) rather than a genitive construction. I also note in ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, "sins" is in the plural, rather than the singular that Paul uses when referring to Sin as power. So in the case of the ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν construction, "Forgiveness of sins" is the more likely translation.

Of possible interest is the translation of "aphesis" juxtaposed with "apheimi" in Matthew 12:31-32, the famous "unforgiveable sin" passage, and whether "liberty" is a possible better translation there. But that's a different thread.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm a simple person I guess, in some ways at least. But not two-dimensional, no I wouldn't say so. I know there is height and width and depth to the things of God which are in spirit and am still learning.

Aren’t we all. It’s strange how we all interpret things differently. It’s so confusing to me. I’m like you…all I can do is read and hear what it says to me. Then I go compare it to tons of other perspectives and they all say something different. If anything makes me doubt what I hear the most it’s this. How can we ever know if what we are hearing is close when all of us says something different?

That scripture doesn't say the one whose works were burned up (wood hay and stubble) would be cast into outer darkness but so as by fire....it says he would SAVED but so as by fire. Saved = eternal life. As opposed to being appointed to wrath.

So..of course I have an opinion. Which others will disagree with. I think Paul is the perfect example of the one whose works were burned up. But he himself was saved as even by fire. (Do I burn not?) Paul said it himself that he suffered the loss of all things and counted them dung…wood, hay, stubble…not even worth mentioning to be found in Christ. Not forgetting one mightier than John comes…He will baptize you will fire.

These are scriptures about weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness (and by all means check the context of each)......doesn't look like salvation to me so they don't apply to the verse we are talking about:


Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Again, I have an opinion. To me the Pharisees are an example of those put without in the outer darkness. And they did gnash on Him with the teeth. The outer darkness to me is when He told them that what hearing, even that would be taken from them. Without hearing …Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
To me that means in outer darkness there is no hearing “deaf” …then that leaves me to question how can those in outer darkness receive deliverance from the darkness until a light shine into that darkness. Just like some where blinded…having been given not ears to hear or eyes to not see until…to me that is outer darkness. Outside of hearing God. As the Pharisee read…but they had yet to hear the voice of the prophets or they had yet to know God’s Voice. How much more outer darkness can you get? Then put without the body of Christ in outer darkness. Just my opinion….

 

[Episkopos]

Well I'm a simple person I guess, in some ways at least. But not two-dimensional, no I wouldn't say so. I know there is height and width and depth to the things of God which are in spirit and am still learning.

That's a good thing :) As long as you are open to the truth.

That scripture doesn't say the one whose works were burned up (wood hay and stubble) would be cast into outer darkness but so as by fire....it says he would SAVED but so as by fire. Saved = eternal life. As opposed to being appointed to wrath.

Read the parable of the wheat and tares. The 2 cuts into eternal life are there. I did a podcast on the subject...# 37 "Are you ready for judgment"

These are scriptures about weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness (and by all means check the context of each)......doesn't look like salvation to me so they don't apply to the verse we are talking about:

Dead people don't wander forever in outer darkness. At least half of modern believers will be vessels of dishonour. My personal understanding is that many many more than we think will be.

Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
TOOLS

Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Being thrust out of the kingdom is not the same as dying in the 2nd death. Those who fear the Lord will depart from iniquity.

To whom much is given more is required.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I like to look at 1 cor this way.

Imagine you are in a house that caught fire. And you had to escape.

In doing so. You left the house. Where all you had gained was burnt in the fire.

All you had left was what you had on your back.

You were saved, But you were saved by coming through the fire.. you lost everything but your life. Which was saved.

Yeah you just described the very thing Paul described in he suffered the loss of all things “where all he gained was burnt in the fire” …coming through the fire …losing everything but his life which “the Life I now live, I Live in Christ” …which was saved through fire.

Love it! “Imagine you are in a house that caught fire. And you had to escape.

In doing so. You left the house. Where all you had gained was burnt in the fire.

All you had left was what you had on your back.

You were saved, But you were saved by coming through the fire.. you lost everything but your life. Which was saved.”

 

[Episkopos]

The LXX writers translated "deror" in Isaiah 61:1 as "aphesis", so in Luke 4:18 where Jesus quotes Isaiah, it is appropriate to translate "aphesis" there as "deliverance" or "release". However, "aphesis" can also mean "forgiveness", so it may or may not be appropriate to translate it the same way every time the verse is used in the NT, by different authors in different contexts. The translation depends on the surrounding context and grammar.

You are using one translation to justify another translation. The LXX is a "targum" not original scriptures.

The ONLY way to understand aphesis is the way the word is used in an inspired text. It means liberty/freedom.

Forgiveness is by shemitah... the release of debt.

Taking the phrase ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν ("aphesin hamartioon"): The "of" comes from the genitive plural of "hamartia", "sins". "Liberty of sins". Hmm. A couple of phrases the NT authors use to indicate being set free from something is ἐλευθερόω ἀπὸ ("elutheroo apo", Romans 8:2, 8:21) or ῥύομαι ἐκ (ruomai ek, Romans 7:24). I note that here the author uses a prepositional phrase ("apo" and "ek", translated "from" in English) rather than a genitive construction. I also note in ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, "sins" is in the plural, rather than the singular that Paul uses when referring to Sin as power. So in the case of the ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν construction, "Forgiveness of sins" is the more likely translation.

I think one will assume that unless one realizes that aphesis has no definition that includes forgiveness. Did Jesus come to set the captives forgiveness?

Of possible interest is the translation of "aphesis" juxtaposed with "apheimi" in Matthew 12:31-32, the famous "unforgiveable sin" passage, and whether "liberty" is a possible better translation there. But that's a different thread.

That is interesting. I'm not a Greek person but a Hebrew person. I go back to the prophetic texts to see what the context of the fulfillment is about.

It's easy to be confused as to the rendering of aphesis...by translators ...mixing up the idea of shemitah (forgiving of debt) with deror (freedom). Both words are used to cover things like the year of Jubilee....where both forgiveness of debt AND freedom are both covered....as separate entities.

I maintain that God has ALWAYS been merciful and that the cross is the means by which we are set free from sin...by the power that kills and by the power of His blood that raises us to new life in Him.

Unless there are two separate words...as in the laws of shemitah and Jubilee...it means that only freedom is being presented.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah you just described the very thing Paul described in he suffered the loss of all things “where all he gained was burnt in the fire” …coming through the fire …losing everything but his life which “the Life I now live, I Live in Christ” …which was saved through fire.

He was speaking of eternal life eternity after he recieved his rewards, but we could use that as a teaching tool also