The social gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

You sure that's 90% of believers or 90% of church people...? Because not all church people are believers....a lot of believers have left the churches. But it's a terrible statistic anyhow, and I blame greasy grace gospels for sin in the camp. And they are in danger of their souls if they don't get serious with God.


Nope I see no confusion/contradiction at all between the foundational truths and holiness.....on the contrary the foundation is necessary for holiness/perfectness.

Amen the foundation is necessary. Unveiled a wrong root and you have no
Foundation you will not stand. In this lifetime or the next

 

[Cassandra]

I want to say I'm sorry if I was mean.

 

[Lizbeth]

The good gets in the way of the perfect. What seems like a good foundation can be such as long as unrighteousness is avoided. That's my concern...holding the truth in unrighteousness.

Calling something that isn't as if it is something that is ....gets a person cut off from God. As long as that is understood..

The foundation of Christ in us (by His Spirit) is not just good, it is perfect. Our renewed inner man is created in His image....perfect. But no of course we must not hold the truth in unrighteousness. And the bible says if we would judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world....this was written in the context of examining ourselves and the Lord's Supper.....and washing of our feet.....even though we are every whit clean. We need to be honest and accountable before the Lord. He is in us, but we may not be walking in Him to the fullest extent or degree possible yet. It is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

Amen the foundation is necessary. Unveiled a wrong root and you have no
Foundation you will not stand. In this lifetime or the next

People accuse me of basing things on experiences, but that is not the case. The only foundation is Jesus Christ...that is obvious. But if we make our foundation OUR experience of Jesus then we have become subjective...and can be off by a country mile.

There is no foundation but Christ...not "Christ in you" or an experience of Christ. It must be Christ where He is...not where you are. This will not be readily understood of course.

One time two disciples asked Jesus...Master, where do you live? Jesus answered...."come and see".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

People accuse me of basing things on experiences, but that is not the case. The only foundation is Jesus Christ...that is obvious.

Yes. But it is more than this. Not everyone who says they have Jesus has him

But if we make our foundation OUR experience of Jesus then we have become subjective...and can be off by a country mile.

Experience means nothing. We have to base on truth

There is no foundation but Christ...not "Christ in you" or an experience of Christ. It must be Christ where He is...not where you are. This will not be readily understood of course.

This is where you’re wrong. If Christ is not in us. We have no foundation. If we are still dead in sin we are lost we can have an experience of being saved but that’s all it is we are lost

One time two disciples asked Jesus...Master, where do you live? Jesus answered...."come and see".

They could not go. Jesus sits at right hand god a perfect medaliatir. Because he took our sin satan can not condemn us anymore unless we let him

 

[Christian Soldier]

When I think of what could be termed as being a social gospel, I think of people like Gandhi, Oprah, or MLK (Martin Luther King)

Of the 3 only the latter could be termed as preaching a social gospel, as he was a minister of religion....aka a pastor.

Mlk used the life of Jesus as something to emulate in His humanity...not concerned for the more spiritual aspects....like whether Jesus was divine or not. To him, that was beside the point. Anything spiritual, to him, was to be taken as a metaphor...a philosophy meant to inspire a human activism in conformity with the message of Jesus in His humanity. Social justice, human rights,...love of one's fellow man.

Gandhi said...I love your Christ, not your Christians. Gandhi was exposed to the charlatan aspect of Christianity that did NOTHING to follow Christ but rather used Him as an idol to worship and a religious ideological claim to be "going to heaven" in an afterlife by simply "accepting" Him. Gandhi found that to be "anti-Christian". Why do we not obey the One we call Lord??

We can compare that social stance to the airy-fairy pseudo spiritual approach embraced by so many where religious beliefs trump actions...what we do with what we have been given.

What is acceptable in the decoy churches is the lip-service of Jesus being divine WITHOUT any obedience to Jesus in His humanity. So we are in a quandary...since there is NO balance in the churches of today, should we prefer one half-truth over the other?

When both these are compared...we see aspects of the truth...but no depth or balance. Basically, NOT the gospel. Neither is according to the gospel.

I preach a spiritual Christianity with the church being a spiritual fellowship of Christ followers...who hold to Jesus being BOTH human AND divine.

As such I weigh the ACTIONS of one extreme over the other. In the case of those who seek to follow Jesus' human side...we see so often self-sacrifice, love of others, and willingness to suffer. On the side of the hypocrites who name and claim the divine benefits of Jesus...we see assumptions and presumptions...naming and claiming...claiming to be saved by these...who REFUSE to emulate Jesus in His humanity, disdaining the human Christ by calling obedience to Him...a works salvation. As if all who obeyed Jesus did so for the same selfish reasons they were "accepting" Jesus' sacrifice for themselves. We judge others as WE are, so often.

So which extreme is better? I say, extreme because neither is the truth. Neither is balanced and represents the real Jesus.

Since we will be judged by our works, NOT our beliefs...I would think that DOING what Jesus would do is better than claiming Him as an idol for an afterlife salvation.

Can we condemn the one extreme without also condemning the other? Or are we also invested in naming and claiming and saying that those who follow Jesus' humanity are going to hell for it, as any carnally minded fundamentalist would...thereby justifying the importance of their own ideological opinions? Or is it...he who is not against Me is for Me?

Can we see that followers of Jesus' humanity (social gospel) are challenging us to NOT be hypocritical in our witness to the world?

My understanding of James 2:18, is that both faith/belief and works are equally important.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works. We can't see faith, so the only way we can tell if one's faith is genuine is if it is confirmed by good works.

The Church is divided into many denominations, over their opposing interpretations of the gospel message. Most people are drawn to the seeker friendly Churches, where they feel comfortable. Many visitors walk out half way through our services, because they can't stand the preaching about sin and judgement. Our Pastor always includes a gospel message with every sermon, most visitors are happy to listen to preaching about Gods love but not about His righteous judgement.

Saved people will also be judged according to their works, but this judgement is not onto damnation. It's more of an awards ceremony, where everyone get a different reward in heaven.

1 Cor. 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Episkopos]

My understanding of James 2:18, is that both faith/belief and works are equally important.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works. We can't see faith, so the only way we can tell if one's faith is genuine is if it is confirmed by good works.

The Church is divided into many denominations, over their opposing interpretations of the gospel message. Most people are drawn to the seeker friendly Churches, where they feel comfortable. Many visitors walk out half way through our services, because they can't stand the preaching about sin and judgement. Our Pastor always includes a gospel message with every sermon, most visitors are happy to listen to preaching about Gods love but not about His righteous judgement.

Amen and welcome to the forum.

Saved people will also be judged according to their works, but this judgement is not onto damnation. It's more of an awards ceremony, where everyone get a different reward in heaven.

1 Cor. 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

An awards ceremony? Maybe for some. But others, many others, will suffer loss. That's not a getting something, but a losing something. Like taking their shame and nakedness into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In a great house there are vessels both of honour and dishonour.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Oneoff]

Lot of ppl here who 'see through a glass clearly'

 

[Episkopos]

Lot of ppl here who 'see through a glass clearly'

Seeing through a glass darkly can be misunderstood to mean that we never get any clear picture of what's going on. But we see as God permits us to see. If we saw everything there was at one time we would be overwhelmed by the experience. So instead of seeing many angels moving about, we might be permitted to see one. And we can extrapolate that experience knowing that we are not seeing all there is, but only what God wants us to focus on.

And that seeing is enough to convey what God wants us to know. So then even though we may not see clearly everything that is taking place, the continuing unfolding of revelation brings us into a better understanding of eternal things. If that was not the case then the one who claimed to see darkly couldn't be trusted to convey the truth in a clear way.

God holds back on revealing certain mysteries...as these are His way of testing our faith. And besides, if He does reveal certain mysteries to His servants the prophets...who would believe their testimony? So then those who don't have faith to discern the truth remain in the dark.

 

[Lizbeth]

Seeing through a glass darkly can be misunderstood to mean that we never get any clear picture of what's going on. But we see as God permits us to see. If we saw everything there is at the same time we would be overwhelmed by the experience. So instead of seeing many angels moving about, we might be permitted to see one. And we can extrapolate that experience knowing that we are not seeing all there is, but only what God wants us to focus on.

And that seeing is enough to convey what God wants us to know. So then even though we may not see clearly everything that is taking place, the continuing unfolding of revelation brings us into a better understanding of eternal things. If that was not the case then the one who claimed to see darkly couldn't be trusted to convey the truth in a clear way.

God holds back on revealing certain mysteries...as these are His way of testing our faith. And besides, if He does reveal certain mysteries to His servants the prophets...who would believe their testimony? So then those who don't have faith to discern the truth remain in the dark.

"If we think we know we do not yet know as we ought." Selah (think upon it). Gives us all reason for humility and room to grow I think. But one day we will fully know even as we are fully known.

 

[Episkopos]

"If we think we know we do not yet know as we ought." Selah (think upon it). Gives us all reason for humility and room to grow I think. But one day we will fully know even as we are fully known.

I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with mine eye. Ps. 32:8

Seek the Lord and live.

 

[Lizbeth]

My understanding of James 2:18, is that both faith/belief and works are equally important.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works. We can't see faith, so the only way we can tell if one's faith is genuine is if it is confirmed by good works.

The Church is divided into many denominations, over their opposing interpretations of the gospel message. Most people are drawn to the seeker friendly Churches, where they feel comfortable. Many visitors walk out half way through our services, because they can't stand the preaching about sin and judgement. Our Pastor always includes a gospel message with every sermon, most visitors are happy to listen to preaching about Gods love but not about His righteous judgement.

Saved people will also be judged according to their works, but this judgement is not onto damnation. It's more of an awards ceremony, where everyone get a different reward in heaven.

1 Cor. 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Jesus also said, "The work of God is this, to believe in the one who He sent."
Seems those whose works will be burned will be saved on that basis, on the basis of faith. (And there is no salvation without faith.)

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus also said, "The work of God is this, to believe in the one who He sent."
Seems those whose works will be burned will be saved on that basis, on the basis of faith. (And there is no salvation without faith.)

saved...into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Spit out, cast away, cut off, found naked...etc...all for vessels of dishonour whose shame and reproach are eternally laid on them.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

My understanding of James 2:18, is that both faith/belief and works are equally important.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works.

You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works.”
Makes me think of: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And all that that follows in Hebrews about by Faith …Abels blood cried out from the ground, Enoch translated that he should not see death, Noah warned of things not yet seen, and prepared…Abraham going out into a place he was called, which after he should receive for an inheritance…they looked for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God…Sara received strength to conceive seed, and deliver if a child when she was past age…therefor sprang as one, and him as good as dead —all these died in faith, not receiving the promises but seeing them far off, not being made perfect without us …being persuaded of them, they embraced them, confessing they were strangers and pilgrims for saying such things they declared they seek a country.
^all speaking beforehand of the suffering of Christ.


You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidence by good works.” Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

….evidenced by good works.
…the evidence of things not seen. The substance of things hoped for.
…makes me consider what are the works and do they speak of that which is not (yet)seen. With Paul —Christ speaking in Paul—it’s obviously there in Paul’s willingness to be weak (as poor but making many rich)so the Corinthians can be made strong in Christ. Even while “Christ” has not yet appeared(formed) in them…while the Corinthians are still yet (accusing their brother) calling him a reprobate and as one who fails….by Faith and Hope, being the evidence of that not yet seen Paul tells them “I trust you will see.” How much more can it be “the blind receive sight”.

 

[Lizbeth]

saved...into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Spit out, cast away, cut off, found naked...etc...all for vessels of dishonour whose shame and reproach are eternally laid on them.

I am not convinced at all that outer darkness means saved. There is only mortality or immortality....kingdom of light or kingdom of darkness.......it's either perish or receive eternal life. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is what those who perish will do when they are thus judged.

 

[Lizbeth]

You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works.”
Makes me think of: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And all that that follows in Hebrews about by Faith …Abels blood cried out from the ground, Enoch translated that he should not see death, Noah warned of things not yet seen, and prepared…Abraham going out into a place he was called, which after he should receive for an inheritance…they looked for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God…Sara received strength to conceive seed, and deliver if a child when she was past age…therefor sprang as one, and him as good as dead —all these died in faith, not receiving the promises but seeing them far off, not being made perfect without us …being persuaded of them, they embraced them, confessing they were strangers and pilgrims for saying such things they declared they seek a country.
^all speaking beforehand of the suffering of Christ.


You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidence by good works.” Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

….evidenced by good works.
…the evidence of things not seen. The substance of things hoped for.
…makes me consider what are the works and do they speak of that which is not (yet)seen. With Paul —Christ speaking in Paul—it’s obviously there in Paul’s willingness to be weak (as poor but making many rich)so the Corinthians can be made strong in Christ. Even while “Christ” has not yet appeared(formed) in them…while the Corinthians are still yet (accusing their brother) calling him a reprobate and as one who fails….by Faith and Hope, being the evidence of that not yet seen Paul tells them “I trust you will see.” How much more can it be “the blind receive sight”.

You might be overthinking it sister. Faith is faith and works are works. Sometimes it is just talking about one or the other.

The point of that scripture is that faith itself (genuine faith that is not of our own) is the evidence and substance of things not yet seen. Agrees with "Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."

 

[Episkopos]

I am not convinced at all that outer darkness means saved.

Too funny. Are people in outer darkness too busy being dead in the lake of fire...you think?

There is only mortality or immortality....kingdom of light or kingdom of darkness.......it's either perish or receive eternal life. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is what those who perish will do when they are thus judged.

Oh my. A two-dimensional understanding of the bible is all that most can expect in this life. That's enough to learn how to serve others and suffer in silence. But to teach the words of God???

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You might be overthinking it sister. Faith is faith and works are works. Sometimes it is just talking about one or the other.

The point of that scripture is that faith itself (genuine faith that is not of our own) is the evidence and substance of things not yet seen. Agrees with "Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."

I hope I’m not overthinking it. To me it’s hopeful. Like the verse 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

That is what I see Christ walking in Paul doing toward the Corinthians hardness of heart. Entering in through the vail. It’s hopeful to me even in judge not by sight of that which is seen but that which is not (yet) seen. To me that speaks of God can open the eyes of the blind. what I see is they want proof Christ speaks in Paul…He is given them the evidence, the Hope of what is not seen. The evidence by his works. (They are the same works as Christ: we will gladly be weak that you be made strong, be you made complete) …no? Faith and Hope (in what is unseen) evidenced by works?

Paul keeps telling them that it does not yet appear unto them, how they still see Paul as one who Christ is not speaking in. They are referring to those in Christ as “as those who fail” “reprobate”. Same thing that happened to Christ….accused of God not speaking in Him. It’s not Paul they are calling a fake but the Spirit that speaks through Paul which is Christ.

To me it’s hopeful because what promises God has given unto us to, endure hard ground? To Stand fast in Hope and Faith? Let me ask you this ….the work of God is that you believe on Him who God has sent. Well…God sent Paul with Christ speaking in Paul toward the Corinthians. Isn’t it “This is the work of God that they believe on Him whom God has sent?” Even we have this treasure in an earthen vessel, so the power be of God and not of us. Why else “I trust you will know” …
1 John 4:4-6 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. [5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world hears them. [6] We are of God: he that knows God hears us(this is the work of God); he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Tell me in Galatians there is not …that which is not seen (not yet appeared) yet believed “until Christ be formed in you” ? Is Paul blessed to have not seen —-Christ formed in their desire to be back under the law—yet believe until Christ be formed in them unto Liberty? (You’ll have need of patience.) <Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe.> have not seen what and yet believe?
Galatians 4:16-22 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? [17] They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that you might affect them. [18] But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. [19] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, [20] I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. [21] Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works. We can't see faith, so the only way we can tell if one's faith is genuine is if it is confirmed by good works.

He did not call us to be fruit inspectors to try to determine if other have real faith or not.

He is talking to individuals

Look at the book and how he talks, He is talking to you as an induvidial. Telling you to count it all Joy in trials. Telling you to look at yourself. Telling you to be a hearer and a doer and not a hearer only.

In the passage, he asks the question, to YOU, What does it profit YOU if YOU claim to have faith but have no works, Can faith save YOU.

Sadly people want to make James contradict paul. By making him tell us to be fruit inspectors. When in reality, James is fighting the false belief of people who reach this grace teaching of paul. But taking it to far. And going from legalism to licentiousness.

The Church is divided into many denominations, over their opposing interpretations of the gospel message. Most people are drawn to the seeker friendly Churches, where they feel comfortable. Many visitors walk out half way through our services, because they can't stand the preaching about sin and judgement. Our Pastor always includes a gospel message with every sermon, most visitors are happy to listen to preaching about Gods love but not about His righteous judgement.

I prefer churches who teach the word. In sequence. Not those who preach hellfire and brimstone. How can the body grow if all they hear is judgment? I grew up on those churches. They were dead churches, No one had power to overcome sin, and many left because they could not live up to the standard (which is true, we can not live up to it)

Saved people will also be judged according to their works, but this judgement is not onto damnation. It's more of an awards ceremony, where everyone get a different reward in heaven.

yes, God silver precious stone, wood hay and straw

1 Cor. 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Amen. Here you are on track. Praise God