The social gospel?

[Episkopos]

Yeah you just described the very thing Paul described in he suffered the loss of all things “where all he gained was burnt in the fire” …coming through the fire …losing everything but his life which “the Life I now live, I Live in Christ” …which was saved through fire.

Love it! “Imagine you are in a house that caught fire. And you had to escape.

In doing so. You left the house. Where all you had gained was burnt in the fire.

All you had left was what you had on your back.

You were saved, But you were saved by coming through the fire.. you lost everything but your life. Which was saved.”

Saved as poor, naked, wretched, and blind. The bible goes into detail on this.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Saved as poor, naked, wretched, and blind. The bible goes into detail on this.

No …2 Corinthians 6:7-10 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, [8] By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; [9] As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; [10] As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

In reference to your quote unless I’m mistaken usually is clothed in scarlets of purple and saying “I have no need of nothing” but not realizing you are poor, blind and miserable. Until the fire comes …Saul is a good example. But Paul is (Imo) the man saved by Fire.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In reference to your quote unless I’m mistaken usually is clothed in scarlets of purple and saying “I have no need of nothing” but not realizing you are poor, blind and miserable. Until the fire comes …Saul is a good example. But Paul is (Imo) the man saved by Fire.

2 Peter 3:10-15 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

[VictoryinJesus]

He was speaking of eternal life eternity after he recieved his rewards, but we could use that as a teaching tool also

I can’t convince anyone. I loved what you shared about the house on Fire. I think there was a lot of wisdom in what you wrote. To me…it’s right in front of our faces. If we choose to downplay where Paul spoke of suffering the loss of all things to —in the end be found not in his own righteousness but being found having the righteousness that comes from God. No better example than that passage where men’s works of righteousness are burnt up and all that remains is …a man comes through the fire that we want to ignore…because how did he come through the fire? How is he saved? Even by fire? Only one answer “God” brought that man through the fire. That man being Christ. Which I think Paul knew all that was loss was gain to be found in Christ.

 

[amadeus]

No …2 Corinthians 6:7-10 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, [8] By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; [9] As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; [10] As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

In reference to your quote unless I’m mistaken usually is clothed in scarlets of purple and saying “I have no need of nothing” but not realizing you are poor, blind and miserable. Until the fire comes …Saul is a good example. But Paul is (Imo) the man saved by Fire.

Consider here the three Hebrews thrown into the fiery furnace [Dan 3:15ff] as opposed to the strong soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar who threw them into the furnace.

 

[Episkopos]

I can’t convince anyone. I loved what you shared about the house on Fire. I think there was a lot of wisdom in what you wrote. To me…it’s right in front of our faces. If we choose to downplay where Paul spoke of suffering the loss of all things to —in the end be found not in his own righteousness but being found having the righteousness that comes from God. No better example than that passage where men’s works of righteousness are burnt up and all that remains is …a man comes through the fire that we want to ignore…because how did he come through the fire? How is he saved? Even by fire? Only one answer “God” brought that man through the fire. That man being Christ. Which I think Paul knew all that was loss was gain to be found in Christ.

I'm surprised you didn't throw in Daniels's 70th week or mention Pelagius. Your kind of speculations are not biblical based at all....but merely you trying to connect dots that are unrelated. There are so many intertwined threads...like a ball of yarn (pun intended) that has no end.

The bible is not meant to feel your way through.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm surprised you didn't throw in Daniels's 70th week or mention Pelagius. Your kind of speculations are not biblical based at all....but merely you trying to connect dots that are unrelated. There are so many intertwined threads...like a ball of yarn (pun intended) that has no end.

The bible is not meant to feel your way through.

Lol. What is “Pelagius”? Never heard of it. Maybe so, what you said. To me it seems so obvious. But like I mentioned to another member every one thinks the same thing …that it’s makes sense when everyone says different things. Of course I consider maybe I do the same thing.

I do think it’s unique that Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Obviously you disagree. Is it about 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
^is this what you are disagreeing with?

 

[Episkopos]

Lol. What is “Pelagius”? Never heard of it. Maybe so, what you said. To me it seems so obvious. But like I mentioned to another member every one thinks the same thing …that it’s makes sense when everyone says different things. Of course I consider maybe I do the same thing.

I do think it’s unique that Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Obviously you disagree. Is it about 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
^is this what you are disagreeing with?

Yes. The mere mention of fire can be misconstrued to have the same meaning all the time.

Our God is a consuming fire but He is NOT the lake of fire.

Like the leaven of the Pharisees...a little leaven (sin) leavens the whole batch. Now from a touchy-feely perspective Jesus' use of leaven to explain the kingdom of God (is like leaven hid in 3 measures of meal) could be seen as something evil...which it is not. Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm surprised you didn't throw in Daniels's 70th week or mention Pelagius. Your kind of speculations are not biblical based at all....but merely you trying to connect dots that are unrelated. There are so many intertwined threads...like a ball of yarn (pun intended) that has no end.

The bible is not meant to feel your way through.

What a joke.

Yes. The mere mention of fire can be misconstrued to have the same meaning all the time.

Our God is a consuming fire but He is NOT the lake of fire.

Like the leaven of the Pharisees...a little leaven (sin) leavens the whole batch. Now from a touchy-feely perspective Jesus' use of leaven to explain the kingdom of God (is like leaven hid in 3 measures of meal) could be seen as something evil...which it is not. Do you see what I'm getting at?

The fire at the bema seat is not helfire.

The people are saved.

The fire at the great throne is an eternal life. It is called the second death.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes. The mere mention of fire can be misconstrued to have the same meaning all the time.

Our God is a consuming fire but He is NOT the lake of fire.

Like the leaven of the Pharisees...a little leaven (sin) leavens the whole batch. Now from a touchy-feely perspective Jesus' use of leaven to explain the kingdom of God (is like leaven hid in 3 measures of meal) could be seen as something evil...which it is not. Do you see what I'm getting at?

That didn’t answer my question about what you think of 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Episkopos]

That didn’t answer my question about what you think of 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That means shame and reproach for ever.

 

[th1b.taylor]

When I think of what could be termed as being a social gospel, I think of people like Gandhi, Oprah, or MLK (Martin Luther King)

Of the 3 only the latter could be termed as preaching a social gospel, as he was a minister of religion....aka a pastor.

Mlk used the life of Jesus as something to emulate in His humanity...not concerned for the more spiritual aspects....like whether Jesus was divine or not. To him, that was beside the point. Anything spiritual, to him, was to be taken as a metaphor...a philosophy meant to inspire a human activism in conformity with the message of Jesus in His humanity. Social justice, human rights,...love of one's fellow man.

Gandhi said...I love your Christ, not your Christians. Gandhi was exposed to the charlatan aspect of Christianity that did NOTHING to follow Christ but rather used Him as an idol to worship and a religious ideological claim to be "going to heaven" in an afterlife by simply "accepting" Him. Gandhi found that to be "anti-Christian". Why do we not obey the One we call Lord??

We can compare that social stance to the airy-fairy pseudo spiritual approach embraced by so many where religious beliefs trump actions...what we do with what we have been given.

What is acceptable in the decoy churches is the lip-service of Jesus being divine WITHOUT any obedience to Jesus in His humanity. So we are in a quandary...since there is NO balance in the churches of today, should we prefer one half-truth over the other?

When both these are compared...we see aspects of the truth...but no depth or balance. Basically, NOT the gospel. Neither is according to the gospel.

I preach a spiritual Christianity with the church being a spiritual fellowship of Christ followers...who hold to Jesus being BOTH human AND divine.

As such I weigh the ACTIONS of one extreme over the other. In the case of those who seek to follow Jesus' human side...we see so often self-sacrifice, love of others, and willingness to suffer. On the side of the hypocrites who name and claim the divine benefits of Jesus...we see assumptions and presumptions...naming and claiming...claiming to be saved by these...who REFUSE to emulate Jesus in His humanity, disdaining the human Christ by calling obedience to Him...a works salvation. As if all who obeyed Jesus did so for the same selfish reasons they were "accepting" Jesus' sacrifice for themselves. We judge others as WE are, so often.

So which extreme is better? I say, extreme because neither is the truth. Neither is balanced and represents the real Jesus.

Since we will be judged by our works, NOT our beliefs...I would think that DOING what Jesus would do is better than claiming Him as an idol for an afterlife salvation.

Can we condemn the one extreme without also condemning the other? Or are we also invested in naming and claiming and saying that those who follow Jesus' humanity are going to hell for it, as any carnally minded fundamentalist would...thereby justifying the importance of their own ideological opinions? Or is it...he who is not against Me is for Me?

Can we see that followers of Jesus' humanity (social gospel) are challenging us to NOT be hypocritical in our witness to the world?

At 79 I no longer teach, save the messages I post and points I make in Sunday School. My Pastor, Gary Ladd of the Ladd Family Gospel Singers believes as you anjd I believe and teaches the entire Bible. Between the ages of 47 and fifty I, as a baby Christian, I was grounded in the faith as I taught Baptist Primaries why they needed to believe the Scriptures and to follow Yashuah. When a man is saved and knows he is filled with Ruah, Satan throws a lot of lies at him, and Primary Instruction, not can be but is essential to remain pointed correctly.

May Yehovah bless your off-spring as He has you.

Bill Taylor
Killer Spade 806 CE

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That means shame and reproach for ever.

Saved but shamed

i am good

better then lake of fire there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That means shame and reproach for ever.

We see it differently than I see one whose house was dissolved —yet he himself saved by fire. Yet you say shame and reproach that last forever.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

You said I tangle it all up about fire …I get there are different things accomplished. Same as that day comes as a thief….yet so that day doesn’t overtake you as a thief caught unaware in the night.

see, I’ve learned not to trust flattery. One minute you can be a friend, the next a foe. unpredictable. (I don’t mean you, I just mean flattery.)

 

[Christian Soldier]

Amen and welcome to the forum.

An awards ceremony? Maybe for some. But others, many others, will suffer loss. That's not a getting something, but a losing something. Like taking their shame and nakedness into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In a great house there are vessels both of honour and dishonour.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

The way I understand what Paul was saying in, 1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved.
Is that, all believers shall be saved as there is no mention of being cast out into the outer darkness or lake of fire. It says "his works shall be burned but he himself shall be saved".

I believe Paul was saying that all of those works we did, to gain some favor from the Lord will be burned up. For example if we gave money to the Church. or did any other good works for any other reason that bringing honor and glory to Gods name, will not be received by God and He will burn them up. It sounds like Paul is saying, that even good works won't be accepted because they were done with a wrong motivation.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

To attach forgiveness to atonement means you don't think that God is forgiving by nature. We are told that we are to forgive 70 x 7. Does God expect us to be more forgiving than He is. Do we have people saying that the mercies of mankind are eternal? Really?

I think people underestimate how much God has to put with. Look at all the sin in the world. And it's still not yet enough to overturn God's mercy. But there is coming a day when God will say ENOUGH.

I do not think it is that God will say enough. It's a issue of, man who brings it all on himself ! the blind leading the blind and they end up walking off a cliff !
I seen this on TV with walruses, one went over the cliff and then the rush was on ! they all high tailed it in that direction.
I had to laugh but my young daughter was horrorfied at the thought of seeing such and me laughing at such as well.
I was not laughing because of the poor things, but because of the situation is so typical banwagon 101.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidenced by good works.”
Makes me think of: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And all that that follows in Hebrews about by Faith …Abels blood cried out from the ground, Enoch translated that he should not see death, Noah warned of things not yet seen, and prepared…Abraham going out into a place he was called, which after he should receive for an inheritance…they looked for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God…Sara received strength to conceive seed, and deliver if a child when she was past age…therefor sprang as one, and him as good as dead —all these died in faith, not receiving the promises but seeing them far off, not being made perfect without us …being persuaded of them, they embraced them, confessing they were strangers and pilgrims for saying such things they declared they seek a country.
^all speaking beforehand of the suffering of Christ.


You said “The writer of James is saying that faith is evidence by good works.” Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

….evidenced by good works.
…the evidence of things not seen. The substance of things hoped for.
…makes me consider what are the works and do they speak of that which is not (yet)seen. With Paul —Christ speaking in Paul—it’s obviously there in Paul’s willingness to be weak (as poor but making many rich)so the Corinthians can be made strong in Christ. Even while “Christ” has not yet appeared(formed) in them…while the Corinthians are still yet (accusing their brother) calling him a reprobate and as one who fails….by Faith and Hope, being the evidence of that not yet seen Paul tells them “I trust you will see.” How much more can it be “the blind receive sight”.

Yes that short verse is packed with theology, and a lot more can be applied to it that I did. I just wanted to make the point that, that we do good works because we are saved and not to be saved them. Good works can be anything good, including faith. But we are saved by Gods grace and not by any works whatsoever, including faith. Many Churches teach a gospel where grace and works are combined, as a joint effort between God and man.

 

[Christian Soldier]

He did not call us to be fruit inspectors to try to determine if other have real faith or not.

He is talking to individuals

Look at the book and how he talks, He is talking to you as an induvidial. Telling you to count it all Joy in trials. Telling you to look at yourself. Telling you to be a hearer and a doer and not a hearer only.

In the passage, he asks the question, to YOU, What does it profit YOU if YOU claim to have faith but have no works, Can faith save YOU.

Sadly people want to make James contradict paul. By making him tell us to be fruit inspectors. When in reality, James is fighting the false belief of people who reach this grace teaching of paul. But taking it to far. And going from legalism to licentiousness.





I prefer churches who teach the word. In sequence. Not those who preach hellfire and brimstone. How can the body grow if all they hear is judgment? I grew up on those churches. They were dead churches, No one had power to overcome sin, and many left because they could not live up to the standard (which is true, we can not live up to it)

yes, God silver precious stone, wood hay and straw

Amen. Here you are on track. Praise God

I believe the whole Bible is about Jesus and what He did to save His people from hell. I have Jewish friends who believe they're under a special covenant to this day. But my understanding is that there are only two covenants. One was given to Adam (the works covenant) and the other was to everyone else after them (the covenant of grace)

Many tend to think that the Jews were under the works covenant but we have overwhelming examples showing that everyone one who was ever saved after Adam was saved by grace and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So all the old testament people looked forward to the coming Messiah and they placed their faith in His atonement for their salvation. The new testament believers look back to what Christ did, but it's the same Savior.

There has always been disputes in the Church over, how important works are in salvation. I personally believe that any works done prior to being saved are not accepted by God because they were done for selfish carnal reasons. But the born again believer, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who guides them into all truth and righteousness. So their works are acceptable because they were done out of obedience and reverence towards God.

 

[Gottservant]

I don't know, I think you need to appreciate that some believers find it hard to do anything more than confess.

 

[Episkopos]

The way I understand what Paul was saying in, 1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved.
Is that, all believers shall be saved as there is no mention of being cast out into the outer darkness or lake of fire. It says "his works shall be burned but he himself shall be saved".

I get that. But saved to what? What does Jesus say about those who are naked? Do a study.

I believe Paul was saying that all of those works we did, to gain some favor from the Lord will be burned up.

I think you are going in the wrong direction with this. Are you saying you don't want to please God? That you don't care if He is pleased with you or not?

For example if we gave money to the Church. or did any other good works for any other reason that bringing honor and glory to Gods name, will not be received by God and He will burn them up. It sounds like Paul is saying, that even good works won't be accepted because they were done with a wrong motivation.

True. But motivation is not the issue on judgment day. Building with gold is to build with eternal materials...that's a holiness thing, not a righteousness thing.

Jesus tells the Laodiceans to "buy from Me". This is to get something that is BEYOND us that we need to get. And this requires faith that God has something we need to seek Him for and that we are willing to pay the price for.

So then having good or bad motives ( something we already have) does not fit the bill for what is burned up on Judgment Day.... at least for believers.

The world will be judged in/by righteousness...so maybe on THAT level, for non-believers, motivation comes into play. But we will be judged by what kind of materials (eternal materials/wisdom or what we conjure up though human reasoning) we built with. Did we (in the House of God) rely on God and GO TO HIM or did we rely on our own understanding?