The social gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes that short verse is packed with theology, and a lot more can be applied to it that I did. I just wanted to make the point that, that we do good works because we are saved and not to be saved them. Good works can be anything good, including faith. But we are saved by Gods grace and not by any works whatsoever, including faith. Many Churches teach a gospel where grace and works are combined, as a joint effort between God and man.

I like the fact that if we know to do right, yet do not do it, it is sin.

I think the issue is people do not understand what the defenition of sin is. I think this is why they can look in the mirror and think they are ok.. Because they do nto commit the “big” sins as many call them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe the whole Bible is about Jesus and what He did to save His people from hell. I have Jewish friends who believe they're under a special covenant to this day. But my understanding is that there are only two covenants. One was given to Adam (the works covenant) and the other was to everyone else after them (the covenant of grace)

Many tend to think that the Jews were under the works covenant but we have overwhelming examples showing that everyone one who was ever saved after Adam was saved by grace and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So all the old testament people looked forward to the coming Messiah and they placed their faith in His atonement for their salvation. The new testament believers look back to what Christ did, but it's the same Savior.

There has always been disputes in the Church over, how important works are in salvation. I personally believe that any works done prior to being saved are not accepted by God because they were done for selfish carnal reasons. But the born again believer, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who guides them into all truth and righteousness. So their works are acceptable because they were done out of obedience and reverence towards God.

The grace covenant I call the abrahamic covenant ‘ (in you -literally your seed or christ- shall all the nations of the world be blessed)

this is not a conditional covenant, It is an I WILL covenant.

The jews are also under a seperate part of this covenant, in that covenant was the law given not to be saved, but to expose them when they did wrong. And lead them to christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I get that. But saved to what? What does Jesus say about those who are naked? Do a study.


I think you are going in the wrong direction with this. Are you saying you don't want to please God? That you don't care if He is pleased with you or not?

True. But motivation is not the issue on judgment day. Building with gold is to build with eternal materials...that's a holiness thing, not a righteousness thing.

Jesus tells the Laodiceans to "buy from Me". This is to get something that is BEYOND us that we need to get. And this requires faith that God has something we need to seek Him for and that we are willing to pay the price for.

So then having good or bad motives ( something we already have) does not fit the bill for what is burned up on Judgment Day.... at least for believers.

The world will be judged in/by righteousness...so maybe on THAT level, for non-believers, motivation comes into play. But we will be judged by what kind of materials (eternal materials/wisdom or what we conjure up though human reasoning) we built with. Did we (in the House of God) rely on God and GO TO HIM or did we rely on our own understanding?

This is what it looks like to be self righteous

everything here is self focused. Not God focused.

We need to look 1st to the cross. For salvation

Next we look to the spirit for sanctification

finally we will be ressurected by God himself. For glorification.

its all of God

Paul said I am confident of this one thing, He who began a good work will complete it.. While we just let God work and not resist. It is God who grows us,

The author of hebrews said by one sacrifice he has perfected forever (eternal life, or justified) those who are being sanctified (it is all of God. He is sanctifying us, it is an ongoing process. Where justification is a completed act)

 

[Lizbeth]

Too funny. Are people in outer darkness too busy being dead in the lake of fire...you think?

Oh my. A two-dimensional understanding of the bible is all that most can expect in this life. That's enough to learn how to serve others and suffer in silence. But to teach the words of God???

Seems to me it would be better and more merciful to perish than to exist in outer darkness weeping and gnashing teeth for eternity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Seems to me it would be better and more merciful to perish than to exist in outer darkness weeping and gnashing teeth for eternity.

I agree

But God created angels as eternal beings.

Hell was created for them.

God made a way for all Humans, that they may be saved. The ones that reject him send themselves there for 50 - 60 years (if they are lucky) of what they think is fun.

when we get the eternal perspective. We are just a blip of a section of time.. And we think we have it

Sadly we are eternal being also.. So if we send ourselves there In unbelief. Thats on us We can’t blame God because he sends people to outer darkness (whatever that may be)

 

[Episkopos]

The grace covenant I call the abrahamic covenant ‘ (in you -literally your seed or christ- shall all the nations of the world be blessed)

this is not a conditional covenant, It is an I WILL covenant.

The opposite is true. All covenants with God are conditional. Israel broke covenant with God...otherwise there would be no need for a better covenant.

The New Covenant is not like the other covenants. The NC is about an empowering to fulfill the law of God. If we remain sinners...then we break that covenant. It makes us transgressors.

The jews are also under a seperate part of this covenant, in that covenant was the law given not to be saved, but to expose them when they did wrong. And lead them to christ.

Not at all. You are influence by a heresy called "Dispensationalism" whereby we go from the natural to the spiritual...and then back to the natural again.

 

[Episkopos]

Seems to me it would be better and more merciful to perish than to exist in outer darkness weeping and gnashing teeth for eternity.

Better yet to depart from iniquity. Better to humble oneself in godly fear and stop naming and claiming things AS IF they were true...but are not. Part of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations. My next podcast is about that very thing....spiritual warfare.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The opposite is true. All covenants with God are conditional.

This is in error

The abrahamic covenant is an unconditional covenant. If you are saved, you were saved based on this covenant.

God said I will. He did not say if you will, then I will. It was not a dual covenant, in fact when God made it. He put Abraham in a deep sleep.Only God walked through.

Israel broke covenant with God...otherwise there would be no need for a better covenant.

Israel broke the mosaic covenant with God. It mosaic was never a covenant to reach salvation, because no one could keep it..

Yet israel is still under the abrahamic covenant. Which is an eternal covenant for all people

The New Covenant is not like the other covenants. The NC is about an empowering to fulfill the law of God.

No. It is about the law fulfilled in us. And not being cursed any longer by that law..

The new covenant is in effect the abrahamic covenant fulfilled.

If we remain sinners...then we break that covenant. It makes us transgressors.

But we are not under law but under grace.

If you want to put people under law. Your putting them under a covenant which they could never be saved

Not at all. You are influence by a heresy called "Dispensationalism" whereby we go from the natural to the spiritual...and then back to the natural again.

Excuse me?

I do not teach we go back to the natural again.

We are either dead (natural) or we are alive (spiritual)

there is no back and forth. And dispensational thinking has nothing to do with anyones salvation, so to say it is heresy, is to not understand it

 

[Lizbeth]

But did they fall from Grace (lose salvation) if did they fall from grace that could have saved them, and need to repent and come to that faith

remember, the problem wiht the galations is they still trusted law. They wanted grace plus law (faith and works)

which is why Paul called them foolish if they thought they began in the spirit (grace) but had to perfect it in the flesh (works of the law or any work really)

ok, here's how I'm seeing it. It says they had been running a good race but others had cut in on them.....also says those who were now trying to be justified by the Law had fallen from grace.........Paul also said he was in labour again that Christ be formed in them. So they needed to come back to Christ/grace alone. Mixture is halting between two opinions....it is trying to serve two masters.....can't be done....as the Lord was gracious to teach me, if one is trying to do both it means one is in actuality unequivocally serving the wrong master or "opinion". I think Paul was unequivocal in saying they had fallen away from grace (whoever among the Galations had reverted to the Law) and that they needed Christ to be formed in them again. (Those Jewish roots believers who are trying to keep the Law in our day.....are in big trouble if they don't repent of that and come back to faith in Christ alone.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I get that. But saved to what? What does Jesus say about those who are naked? Do a study.


I think you are going in the wrong direction with this. Are you saying you don't want to please God? That you don't care if He is pleased with you or not?

True. But motivation is not the issue on judgment day. Building with gold is to build with eternal materials...that's a holiness thing, not a righteousness thing.

Jesus tells the Laodiceans to "buy from Me". This is to get something that is BEYOND us that we need to get. And this requires faith that God has something we need to seek Him for and that we are willing to pay the price for.

So then having good or bad motives ( something we already have) does not fit the bill for what is burned up on Judgment Day.... at least for believers.

The world will be judged in/by righteousness...so maybe on THAT level, for non-believers, motivation comes into play. But we will be judged by what kind of materials (eternal materials/wisdom or what we conjure up though human reasoning) we built with. Did we (in the House of God) rely on God and GO TO HIM or did we rely on our own understanding?

I know this was to another member. But I forgot yesterday thinking about your monkey analogy.
“To catch a monkey, people will put a shiny object at the bottom of a bottle. Once the monkey gets a grip on the shiny object he won't let go. It just so happens that the neck of the bottle is just big enough to allow the monkeys hand to slip in...but too small to allow a fist full of shiny object to come out. So the hunters catch their prey. .

Likewise once we have adopted a false gospel...that caters to the flesh...it's very hard to let it go. It would feel like you are losing your salvation, your foundation..... your "precious".”
To me this man whose works were burned up “loss his precious”: the shiny object at the bottom where the neck was too narrow for his grasp and he Has to turn loose or let go to …get free.

But the good news is he by the fire, he turned loose “of the shiny object” , himself saved by fire. That is why I said eternally grateful’s analogy was good …of the man that escaped the burning house. Leaving his things behind.. But the man escaped. Saved through and by fire. Like Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire: [17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
—-where if a man’s works are burned up being the chaff, wood, hay and stubble but he himself saved …why does the man grieve for the loss of what was burned up, because it does not say the promises of God are burned up or loss—but only mentions if any man’s works burn —chaff, wood, hay or stubble. That isn’t a bad thing right? To have works which are chaff burned but to come through the fire yet “he himself saved by fire”? “he who looses his life, will save it.” How does the fire save if not in the removal of the chaff?

Which is what you talk about …that old man is burned up. The outer man …the hull(which is the chaff). Doesn’t make it through the fire. Like the monkey analogy of the shinny thing afraid to be turned loose of …that old man. I get others may try to place the fire here or there in time…I don’t want them to get confused by the timing. To me it’s what the passage is showing to prepare for regardless of what a person thinks about when comes the fire. To me that passage is why the good news is preached…that “I come that they may have Life” …to give them that which does make it through the fire. It’s Christ. Again…if the works burned in that whole passage where “if any man’s works are burned up” “he will suffer loss” ….it is NOT the promises of God failing or being burned up, it is The chaff. That old man. That outer man. The hull. The chaff. What makes it through the fire if not …Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Better yet to depart from iniquity.

What good would that do if we are still dead in sin.

Better to humble oneself in godly fear and stop naming and claiming things AS IF they were true..

Thats where faith comes in, Faith says it is true, because Gd said it is true

If you want to see that as name it and claim it. Well then I guess Gods truth is not really what you trust in..

.but are not. Part of spiritual warfare is to cast down imaginations. My next podcast is about that very thing....spiritual warfare.

Another thing people should run far away from.. When you have the root in error. All the rest will follow

While you may have bits and peace’s of truth, it is all based Ont he lie. Hence is meaningless.

 

[Episkopos]

This is what it looks like to be self righteous

everything here is self focused. Not God focused.

The god of your own navel. Again, I testify of God's power over sin...and you call that self-righteousness. Why? Because you believe there is NO victory over sin possible...so any reference to that victory must be coming from a human effort. And you believe this because you deny grace and holiness..and the cross that kills the sin nature. Deny, deny, deny. And then accuse, accuse, accuse.

We need to look 1st to the cross. For salvation

Next we look to the spirit for sanctification

finally we will be ressurected by God himself. For glorification.

its all of God

Seek God and live. Stop with the imagination and have a real relationship through seeking the Lord.

Paul said I am confident of this one thing, He who began a good work will complete it.. While we just let God work and not resist. It is God who grows us,

First it must be a real relationship.

The author of hebrews said by one sacrifice he has perfected forever (eternal life, or justified) those who are being sanctified (it is all of God. He is sanctifying us, it is an ongoing process. Where justification is a completed act)

False. Those who ARE sanctified (not BEING sanctified) It is...By one sacrifice He has perfected (NOW) into eternity (kingdom realm) those who ARE sanctified.

The translators had an agenda...not believing in the grace of God that perfects the disciple INTO eternal life...NOW. Pagan influences stopped the translators from seeing what the gospel is about.

And it doesn't help that bible readers are looking for justification IN their fallen nature...apart from the New Covenant.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

ok, here's how I'm seeing it. It says they had been running a good race but others had cut in on them.....also says those who were now trying to be justified by the Law had fallen from grace.........Paul also said he was in labour again that Christ be formed in them. So they needed to come back to Christ/grace alone. Mixture is halting between two opinions....it is trying to serve two masters.....can't be done....as the Lord was gracious to teach me, if one is trying to do both it means one is in actuality unequivocally serving the wrong master or "opinion". I think Paul was unequivocal in saying they had fallen away from grace (whoever among the Galations had reverted to the Law) and that they needed Christ to be formed in them again. (Those Jewish roots believers who are trying to keep the Law in our day.....are in big trouble if they don't repent of that and come back to faith in Christ alone.)

Look at it this way

You grow up in a legalistic system,

Someone shows you the Grace of God

Your faith is in that system of rules you grew up in. But you are intrigued by the new grace system.

Buf the legal system (of works) keep tugging on you, so you can not totally receive this law of Grace that is shared with you. In the end, you walk away fro Grace and return totally to the law system you truly trusted in,

one could say you fell from Grace, You were going up the mountain of Grace and able to accept it. But before you truly repented, you fell of that mountain and back into the valley of death (works)

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[Ritajanice]

The god of your own navel.

.?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The god of your own navel. Again, I testify of God's power over sin...and you call that self-righteousness.

Yet you claim you have not had power over that sin

And again, Even if you did, You would still be lost.

Why? Because you believe there is NO victory over sin possible...

Thats a lie. And a feeble attempt to attack the messenger by a false truth to make them look bad. It will not stand

so any reference to that victory must be coming from a human effort.

If your being good to try to enter heaven, it is of human effort

Again, I believe God will finish (complete) what he started. You do not.. so the truth is there for all to see

And you believe this because you deny grace and holiness..

lol. Dude, My whole foundation is the grace of God.. Your foundation is your works..

and the cross that kills the sin nature. Deny, deny, deny. And then accuse, accuse, accuse.

Oh, I agree,the cross did kill the sin nature. So once again, You lie lie lie.

The cross did more than killed the sin nature.It killed the pantry for sin. So you can be born again and adopted into Gods family.

But you want to get in your own way, good luck

Seek God and live.

I searched and found God, and more importanlty, was found by him 40 years ago. I have been living for 40 years. But thank you

Stop with the imagination and have a real relationship through seeking the Lord.

I could not do that by coming to your gospel..Which is all self focused.

First it must be a real relationship.

You can;t have a relationship when it is severed by the penalty of sin. You have to have that barrier removed first.

False. Those who ARE sanctified (not BEING sanctified) It is...By one sacrifice He has perfected (NOW) into eternity (kingdom realm) those who ARE sanctified.

Dude, why would you add to the word of God

it says HE PERFECTED FOREVER (not now. It is a past action, why are you adding to the word of God

Those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification is an ongoing act. It is not something that is completed yet.

When sanctification is complete. We will be perfect. That is called glorification

The translators had an agenda...not believing in the grace of God that perfects the disciple INTO eternal life..

You have an agenda. Trying to translate yourself to eternal life by your works..

.NOW. Pagan influences stopped the translators from seeing what the gospel is about.

Like it has done you? Dude give it a break.

And it doesn't help that bible readers are looking for justification IN their fallen nature...apart from the New Covenant.

No one is teaching this, But you

You deny the new covenant of grace, Your no different than the jew, who struggles with adding the law to grace. Paul called it a different gospel

Repent my friend, coe to christ, He will save you. He will give you rest.

Or keep working, where you will never stop working and in the end will fail.

 

[Episkopos]

I know this was to another member. But I forgot yesterday thinking about your monkey analogy.
“To catch a monkey, people will put a shiny object at the bottom of a bottle. Once the monkey gets a grip on the shiny object he won't let go. It just so happens that the neck of the bottle is just big enough to allow the monkeys hand to slip in...but too small to allow a fist full of shiny object to come out. So the hunters catch their prey. .

Likewise once we have adopted a false gospel...that caters to the flesh...it's very hard to let it go. It would feel like you are losing your salvation, your foundation..... your "precious".”
To me this man whose works were burned up “loss his precious”: the shiny object at the bottom where the neck was too narrow for his grasp and he Has to turn loose or let go to …get free.

But the good news is he by the fire, turned loose “of the shiny object” , himself saved by fire.

That's not what judgment is about. NOW is the time to be set free...not later when people are forced to admit their sins. The bible says that EVERY KNEE will bow. And Universalists think that means ALL will be saved. Using your reasoning you have to admit the same. But to be found out as a liar and pretender on judgment day...is not the same as being faithful to God.

That is why I said eternally grateful’s analogy was good …of the man that escaped the burning house.

Now is the time to escape the burning house....before you die. If you wait until you are dead to escape a burning house...well then comes judgment.

Leaving his things behind.. But the man escaped. Saved through and by fire. Like Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:

Are you saying that we will not be baptized in the Spirit until judgment day?

[17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor,

Purging means destroying the chaff...and those who produce it.

and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
—-where if a man’s works are burned up being the chaff, wood, hay and stubble but he himself saved …why does the man grieve for that loss of what was burned up, because it does not say the promises of God are burned up or loss—but only mentions if any man’s works burn —chaff, wood, hay or stubble. That isn’t a bad thing right? To have works which are chaff burned but to come through the fire yet “he himself saved by fire”? “he who looses his life, will save it.” How does the fire save if not in the removal of the chaff?

The fire saves NOW...burning away our sins. But the fires of judgment day REVEAL who is serving God, and who is serving themselves (and by proxy, the devil). So unless you think God is going to save all of mankind...including the Pharisees and Hitler, then you are mixing up what happens NOW and what happens on judgment day.

The same thing goes for the idea of a "purgatory"...an invention of the RCC. There is a purgatory right NOW. Otherwise purging His floor means you think the RCC is right.

Which is what you talk about …that old man is burned up. The outer man …the hull. Doesn’t make it through the fire.

No. There is no outer man on judgment day. That man is carnal and temporal. No outer man makes it to judgment day. He dies with the body. The temporal life dies at physical death. What is left is who we really are, what we did, what we permitted.

When Jesus rebuked the Laodiceans and threatened to spit them out (into glory??? Of course not) He was speaking to the inner man...to buy from Him...not trust the flesh. If we trust the flesh we are under a curse.

Like the monkey analogy of the shinny thing afraid to be turned loose of …that old man. I get others may try to place the fire here or there in time…I don’t want them to get confused by the timing. To me it’s what the passage is showing to prepare for regardless of what a person thinks about when comes the fire. To me that passage is why the good news is preached…that “I come that they may have Life” …to give them that which does make it through the fire. It’s Christ. Again…if the works burned in that whole passage where “if any man’s works are burned up” “he will suffer loss” ….it is NOT the promises of God failing or being burned up, it is The chaff.

You are looking for a religious certainty...choose faith instead.

 

[Ritajanice]

Your faith is in that system of rules you grew up in. But you are intrigued by the new grace system

Your faith should be in the Spirit Of God...if you are Born Of The Spirit.

The faith that God gifted to you should be growing?

In Him?

We put our trust in God....why because we are his spirit children?

 

[Ritajanice]

You are looking for a religious certainty...choose faith instead.

We walk in faith because we are spirit children....you can’t walk in faith without the Spirit?

You wouldn’t know who God is without being Born Of His Spirit?

We know God in our spirit?

Therefore are led by the Spirit?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your faith should be in the Spirit Of God...if you are Born Of The Spirit.

The faith that God gifted to you should be growing?

In Him?

We put our trust in God....why because we are his spirit children?

I am talking about a legalist. Who trust their works. Not in someone who trusts God completely