SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Peterlag]

Yep, I've already covered that in a previous post (post #415).


Sorry, that was a typing error (which I've corrected). It should have been John 8:58.

How I see John 8:58...
Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy. Prophecies of the coming redeemer start as early as Genesis 3:15, which was before Abraham. Jesus was “the one” the Savior, long before Abraham. The Church did not literally exist as people for God to choose us before the foundation of the world. We existed in the mind of God. Similarly, Jesus did not exist as an actual physical person during the time of Abraham, but he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is how I see it...

“before all things.” The Greek word translated as before is the preposition pro (#4253 πρό). Pro can mean “before” in the sense of either space, time, or priority. The meaning here in Colossians 1:17 is that of rank or priority; Christ is before all things in that he holds priority of rank above everything and everyone else.

“are held together.” This verse is speaking of the positions of authority that Christ created in the Christian Church, and how those authorities relate to Jesus and to each other. The verb has several meanings that are pertinent to how these authorities relate to each other.

And as usual you see it wrong. You take a single word out of its context and then create a false doctrine.

Yes Jesus is the head of all things, but that is shown by the word "arche" . The context here is that Jesus pre-exists what He created!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How I see John 8:58...
Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy. Prophecies of the coming redeemer start as early as Genesis 3:15, which was before Abraham. Jesus was “the one” the Savior, long before Abraham. The Church did not literally exist as people for God to choose us before the foundation of the world. We existed in the mind of God. Similarly, Jesus did not exist as an actual physical person during the time of Abraham, but he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness

 

[Peterlag]

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness

Are Jehovah's Witness thrown off sites, banned, deleted, and censored? I was just thrown off a thread on this very site.

 

[Peterlag]

And as usual you see it wrong. You take a single word out of its context and then create a false doctrine.

Yes Jesus is the head of all things, but that is shown by the word "arche" . The context here is that Jesus pre-exists what He created!

Are you sure you are not Catholic?

 

[keithr]

How I see John 8:58...
Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy. Prophecies of the coming redeemer start as early as Genesis 3:15, which was before Abraham. Jesus was “the one” the Savior, long before Abraham. The Church did not literally exist as people for God to choose us before the foundation of the world. We existed in the mind of God. Similarly, Jesus did not exist as an actual physical person during the time of Abraham, but he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.

The Greek words commonly translated as "I am", more precisely should be translated as "I have been", i.e. Jesus was saying that he had been alive from before Abraham was born.

Your idea that Jesus (and everything) only previously existed in God's thoughts, is not in harmony with other verses of Scripture which indicate that Jesus was the agent through whom God created the universe and everything on the earth, such as:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (ISV):

(6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.​

or J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English:

(6) to us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything comes, and for who we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom everything exists, and by whom we ourselves are alive.​

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

John 1:9-11 (WEB):

(9) The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.​

(10) He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him.​

(11) He came to his own, and those who were his own didn’t receive him.​

Revelation 3:14 (ISV):

(14) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:​

 

[keithr]

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness

Why do you ask that? That's not what JWs believe. From Wikipedia:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven. He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God", but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity. Jesus is said to have been used by God in the creation of all other things. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Archangel Michael, "the Word" of John 1:1, and wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 refer to Jesus in his pre-human existence and that he resumed these identities after his ascension to heaven following his death and resurrection. ...​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are Jehovah's Witness thrown off sites, banned, deleted, and censored? I was just thrown off a thread on this very site.

You did not answer my question.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you sure you are not Catholic?

Yes I am sure. Now how about answering my question instead of dodging it! It is a simple reply either a two or three word answer: Yes or NO.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you ask that? That's not what JWs believe. From Wikipedia:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", and that his life began in heaven. He is described as God's first creation and the "exact representation of God", but is believed to be a separate entity and not part of a Trinity. Jesus is said to have been used by God in the creation of all other things. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Archangel Michael, "the Word" of John 1:1, and wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 refer to Jesus in his pre-human existence and that he resumed these identities after his ascension to heaven following his death and resurrection. ...​

I ask him because he writes straight out of watchtower material.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes I am sure. Now how about answering my question instead of dodging it! It is a simple reply either a two or three word answer: Yes or NO.

Yes I am sure.

 

[Peterlag]

The Greek words commonly translated as "I am", more precisely should be translated as "I have been", i.e. Jesus was saying that he had been alive from before Abraham was born.

Your idea that Jesus (and everything) only previously existed in God's thoughts, is not in harmony with other verses of Scripture which indicate that Jesus was the agent through whom God created the universe and everything on the earth, such as:

1 Corinthians 8:6 (ISV):

(6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.​

or J.B. Phillips New Testament in Modern English:

(6) to us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything comes, and for who we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom everything exists, and by whom we ourselves are alive.​

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

John 1:9-11 (WEB):

(9) The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.​

(10) He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him.​

(11) He came to his own, and those who were his own didn’t receive him.​

Revelation 3:14 (ISV):

(14) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:​

Same as Colossians 1:16.

1 Corinthians 8:6 shows how God and Jesus work in unity to get the Church what it needs. God gave Jesus all authority and made him head over the Church, so now we get what we need “through” Jesus. There is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of the world such that the “all things” refers to the original creation of Genesis. This verse is speaking of the Church. God provided all things for the Church via Jesus Christ.

 

[keithr]

Same as Colossians 1:16.

1 Corinthians 8:6 shows how God and Jesus work in unity to get the Church what it needs. God gave Jesus all authority and made him head over the Church, so now we get what we need “through” Jesus. There is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of the world such that the “all things” refers to the original creation of Genesis. This verse is speaking of the Church. God provided all things for the Church via Jesus Christ.

You're twisting the plain text to fit your interpretation, while still ignoring other verses which cannot be interpreted that way. I'll add some more verses in one last attempt to help you see the truth (I won't post any more on the subject after this).

John 1:15 (ISV):

(15) John {the baptist} told the truth about him when he cried out, "This is the person about whom I said, 'The one who comes after me ranks higher than me, because he existed before me.'"​

John 17:5 (KJV):

(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

The Greek word para that's translated as "with", does not mean "in God's thoughts or plans", it means that Jesus was with, or beside, God - in companionship with God. Strong's says para means "properly near, that is, (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local [especially beyond or opposed to] or causal [on account of])".

In harmony with that, in the same conversation Jesus says, John 17:24 (WEB):

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

2 Corinthians 8:9 (WEB):

(9) For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might become rich.​

The above verse alludes to Jesus' existence with a higher nature, for our sakes becoming poorer by giving up that higher nature and becoming a human ("lower than the angels") - Hebrews 2:9 (WEB):

(9) But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.​

Philippians 2:5-8 (WEB):

(5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,​

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

And the above verses clearly states that Jesus existed in a higher nature ("existing in the form of God") before he was made "in the likeness of men".

At the appointed time God didn't create or give birth to Jesus, he sent His already existing Son, Galatians 4:4 (WEB):

(4) But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,​

Micah 5:2 (WEB):

(2) But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, being small among the clans of Judah, out of you one will come out to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings out are from of old, from ancient times.​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes I am sure.

So you are a Jehovahs Witness then? You still did not answer the question with a simple yes or no. YOu being evasive and hedging your answers is a dark thing.

Are you ashamed of being a Witness?

 

[Peterlag]

So you are a Jehovahs Witness then? You still did not answer the question with a simple yes or no. YOu being evasive and hedging your answers is a dark thing.

Are you ashamed of being a Witness?

Actually I'm insulted that you are referring to me as a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually I'm insulted that you are referring to me as a Jehovah's Witness.

Well it is you playing your juvenile word games and refusing to give a definitive yes or no answer. Just be straighforward and honest and stop playing these silly little word games.

 

[Peterlag]

Well it is you playing your juvenile word games and refusing to give a definitive yes or no answer. Just be straighforward and honest and stop playing these silly little word games.

It hurts whenever you refer to me as one of those. I go into shock and cry so much I often can't see the keyboard. Why can't you be nice and just refer to me as a great scholar.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It hurts whenever you refer to me as one of those. I go into shock and cry so much I often can't see the keyboard. Why can't you be nice and just refer to me as a great scholar.

Well I have no clue what kind of scholar you are! If you were a great scholar you would not have to plead to be recognized as one. It would plainly show in your responses.

The fact you deny the deity of Jesus and deny He pre-existed His Incarnation as nothing more than an idea or thought or purpose in Gods mind, does not make you an even lukewarm scholar of Christianity.

And as long as you wish to answer with indefinite responses and cryptic replies, you will be misunderstood . that is on you.

Also if yiou do not wish to be considered a Jehovah's Witness, when someone asks you directly, answer directly. You know what that is! Yes I am a JW or no I am not. AS LONG AS YOU PLAY THOSE MUDDLED WORD GAMES- YOU BRING IT UPON YOURSELF.

 

[keithr]

Same as Colossians 1:16.

1 Corinthians 8:6 shows how God and Jesus work in unity to get the Church what it needs. God gave Jesus all authority and made him head over the Church, so now we get what we need “through” Jesus. There is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of the world such that the “all things” refers to the original creation of Genesis. This verse is speaking of the Church. God provided all things for the Church via Jesus Christ.

I know I said that I wouldn't post any more on the subject of Jesus' pre-existence before his birth as a human, but I thought I should just correct you on your comment that 1 Corinhians 8:6 is "speaking of the Church". The context of the passage (the whole chapter) is actually about Christians eating food offered to idols. Paul says that though there are many things called gods, we know that there is just one true God, and that everything that exists was made because it was His will that it should be created, and He chose that everything, including us humans, should be created by His beloved only begotten Son Jesus. Therefore whether we eat food offered to idols or not, it will not affect our relationship with God, for we know as God knows that the idols are not true gods. But Paul advises to be careful and consider those weaker Christians that have just converted from their pagan idol worshipping beliefs, that the stronger Christians should not therefore eat food prepared for idols if it might cause those new Christians to fall back into their pagan beliefs. The "are all things" is therefore referring to exactly what it says - everything that has been made. The verse is about God and Jesus, not the Church. As the ISV translates it:

(6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.​

or the TLV:

(6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through Him.​

1 Corinthians 8:4-13 (WEB):

(4) Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one.​

(5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;​

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

(7) However, that knowledge isn’t in all men. But some, with consciousness of the idol until now, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.​

(8) But food will not commend us to God. For neither, if we don’t eat, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.​

(9) But be careful that by no means does this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to the weak.​

(10) For if anyone sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol temple, will not the weak one's conscience be lifted up so as to eat things sacrificed to idols?​

(11) And on your knowledge the weak brother will fall, he for whom Christ died.​

(12) And sinning in this way against your brothers, and wounding their conscience, being weak, you sin against Christ.​

(13) Therefore, if food offends my brother, I will eat no flesh forever, that I do not offend my brother.​

This is also in line with what Paul wrote earlier, when he said that what we eat is a trifling matter, 1 Corinthians 6:12-13 (WEB):

(12) “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are expedient. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be brought under the power of anything.​

(13) “Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods,” but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.​

 

[Peterlag]

I know I said that I wouldn't post any more on the subject of Jesus' pre-existence before his birth as a human, but I thought I should just correct you on your comment that 1 Corinhians 8:6 is "speaking of the Church". The context of the passage (the whole chapter) is actually about Christians eating food offered to idols. Paul says that though there are many things called gods, we know that there is just one true God, and that everything that exists was made because it was His will that it should be created, and He chose that everything, including us humans, should be created by His beloved only begotten Son Jesus. Therefore whether we eat food offered to idols or not, it will not affect our relationship with God, for we know as God knows that the idols are not true gods. But Paul advises to be careful and consider those weaker Christians that have just converted from their pagan idol worshipping beliefs, that the stronger Christians should not therefore eat food prepared for idols if it might cause those new Christians to fall back into their pagan beliefs. The "are all things" is therefore referring to exactly what it says - everything that has been made. The verse is about God and Jesus, not the Church. As the ISV translates it:

(6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.​

or the TLV:

(6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through Him.​

1 Corinthians 8:4-13 (WEB):

(4) Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one.​

(5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;​

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

(7) However, that knowledge isn’t in all men. But some, with consciousness of the idol until now, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.​

(8) But food will not commend us to God. For neither, if we don’t eat, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.​

(9) But be careful that by no means does this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to the weak.​

(10) For if anyone sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol temple, will not the weak one's conscience be lifted up so as to eat things sacrificed to idols?​

(11) And on your knowledge the weak brother will fall, he for whom Christ died.​

(12) And sinning in this way against your brothers, and wounding their conscience, being weak, you sin against Christ.​

(13) Therefore, if food offends my brother, I will eat no flesh forever, that I do not offend my brother.​

This is also in line with what Paul wrote earlier, when he said that what we eat is a trifling matter, 1 Corinthians 6:12-13 (WEB):

(12) “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are expedient. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be brought under the power of anything.​

(13) “Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods,” but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.​

We disagree on this subject. I don't see what you see.