T U L I P explained

[Runningman]

Well Adams fall is the original sin. All men after that as it says in SCripture are born in the image of Adam and not God.

Genesis 5​

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King James Version​

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5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is important. Adam was made in teh image of God. but because of His fall He died spiritually and tghe very nature of man changed.

The Original sin doctrine posits that humans inherit a predisposition to be sinners, essentially born with a sin gene, and some even say that it means people are born sinning straightaway from the womb; yet children are not born violating any commandments nor have the capacity to since they don't have evil desires. The need to be "born again" only applies to those who have died spiritually, like Adam, as a result of their choice to sin. With that being said, when does one die spiritually? It's when they sin. We don't inherit the sin or guilt of Adam or other peoples' actions. (Ezekiel 18:20)

According to Psalm 139:14, God is not creating natural born sinners "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well." and Ecc. 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

In addition to that, Jesus (also known as the Last Adam), including all people, trace their lineage back through Adam to God (Luke 3:38). Yet Jesus didn't sin, yet Immanuel had to learn to reject evil and choose good (Isaiah 7:15) and grow in favor and stature with God (Luke 2:52) like all people who need spiritual development must do.

So we have a good Biblical precedent here that God makes people wonderful and upright, but at some point they go astray, yet despite being descended from Adam it doesn't make someone a sinner or inherently corrupt with evil desires in the first place. Sin in the world leads people astray when they are tempted by it then after that they die spiritually upon being drawn away by their own evil desires (James 1:14,15.) People are not born with evil desires to be tempted with.

Why I began with Original sin instead of going directly into the labyrinth that is Calvin's TULIP is because this understanding that I have presented here is true, and Calvin's TULIP is built upon a false premise. Therefore, the elected are not totally depraved in the first place, but rather needing atonement after a deliberate sinning, and irresistible grace becomes pointless since God doesn't make people sin in the first place. The P is also pointless because people are born without sin therefore didn't require atonement in the first place (just like Jesus) and proves that OSAS can't be accurate.

 

[One 2 question]

irresistible grace becomes pointless since God doesn't make people sin in the first place

Just a quick question. Who said, God doesn't make people sin in the first place?

 

[One 2 question]

Otherwise we are all but robots

Who has a problem with us being our Designers, Creators and Owners robot, modelling clay, puppet?

I certainly don't have any problem with my Creators predetermined and appointed function and role for me.

I love Them Who controls me for the purpose of producing pleasure for Themselves. I have come to embrace whatever comes my way, knowing that it is from my Owners, the Divine Script Writers, Them Who said, Let Us make man in Our likeness and image.

 

[One 2 question]

Irresistible grace - Grace is resistible. everyone who will die in unbelief has resisted Gods grace.

I fully agree with both. God's grace is irresistible and it can be resisted.

God's grace is irresistible to some now (to ALL later) AND God's grace can and is resisted for the rest only for now.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who has a problem with us being our Designers, Creators and Owners robot, modelling clay, puppet?

everyone should. You can not have a loving relationship if you are a robot.
and I think God would have a problem with it. Because his love can not be returned to him, if we are robots.

I certainly don't have any problem with my Creators predetermined and appointed function and role for me.

Thats different than saying you are a robot. I have no problem with this either.

As long as I am free to accept this function and role. and rely on God to help me fulfill it,

I love Them Who controls me for the purpose of producing pleasure for Themselves. I have come to embrace whatever comes my way, knowing that it is from my Owners, the Divine Script Writers, Them Who said, Let Us make man in Our likeness and image.

Yet there is evil in this world..

If that is all in Gods plan, and he created it and caused it.. Then I have major problems with this, So should you. And I know God would have a problem with this. Because he is a god of love.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I fully agree with both. God's grace is irresistible and it can be resisted.

God's grace is irresistible to some now (to ALL later) AND God's grace can and is resisted for the rest only for now.

I resisted Gods grace until I repented and received it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think you are confusing eternal life with an after-life...a Valhalla kind of life after you die. Do you see that as "going to heaven"??? You could be mixed up with that and the KIND of life that Jesus was resurrected to give those who come after Him.

A further confusion is you are confusing works of the law (Judaism) which are in one's own strength....and the works OF Christ which the saint walks in. We will be judged by our works not our beliefs....of what kind they are, whether they are eternal works from a heavenly power, or else a human work done in the reasoning of the mind.

And your idea of "being saved" is a religious one...NOT based on the power of God that translates a person into the higher kingdom walk right now.

YOu wrote three lines of your thinkiing. And with all respect, your thining of what I think and believe is dead wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

I resisted Gods grace until I repented and received it.

The ideology or the visitation and empowering from God?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Original sin doctrine posits that humans inherit a predisposition to be sinners, essentially born with a sin gene, and some even say that it means people are born sinning straightaway from the womb; yet children are not born violating any commandments nor have the capacity to since they don't have evil desires. The need to be "born again" only applies to those who have died spiritually, like Adam, as a result of their choice to sin. With that being said, when does one die spiritually? It's when they sin. We don't inherit the sin or guilt of Adam or other peoples' actions. (Ezekiel 18:20)

According to Psalm 139:14, God is not creating natural born sinners "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well." and Ecc. 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

In addition to that, Jesus (also known as the Last Adam), including all people, trace their lineage back through Adam to God (Luke 3:38). Yet Jesus didn't sin, yet Immanuel had to learn to reject evil and choose good (Isaiah 7:15) and grow in favor and stature with God (Luke 2:52) like all people who need spiritual development must do.

So we have a good Biblical precedent here that God makes people wonderful and upright, but at some point they go astray, yet despite being descended from Adam it doesn't make someone a sinner or inherently corrupt with evil desires in the first place. Sin in the world leads people astray when they are tempted by it then after that they die spiritually upon being drawn away by their own evil desires (James 1:14,15.) People are not born with evil desires to be tempted with.

Why I began with Original sin instead of going directly into the labyrinth that is Calvin's TULIP is because this understanding that I have presented here is true, and Calvin's TULIP is built upon a false premise. Therefore, the elected are not totally depraved in the first place, but rather needing atonement after a deliberate sinning, and irresistible grace becomes pointless since God doesn't make people sin in the first place. The P is also pointless because people are born without sin therefore didn't require atonement in the first place (just like Jesus) and proves that OSAS can't be accurate.

Ephesians 2

King James Version

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2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Sorry but we are born with a sin nature and we do not become sinners when we commit sin, we commit sin because we are by nature sinners. Just like dogs act like dogs because they are dogs by nature.

YOu quote David in the psalms saying we are fearfully and wonderfully made- and we are! But you neglect to add that David wrote this as well:

Psalm 51:5

King James Version

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5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Runningman]

Ephesians 2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Sorry but we are born with a sin nature and we do not become sinners when we commit sin, we commit sin because we are by nature sinners. Just like dogs act like dogs because they are dogs by nature.

YOu quote David in the psalms saying we are fearfully and wonderfully made- and we are! But you neglect to add that David wrote this as well:

Psalm 51:5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Initially made wonderfully and without sin then after that later on got corrupted.

 

[Runningman]

Just a quick question. Who said, God doesn't make people sin in the first place?

How about James?

James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[One 2 question]

You can not have a loving relationship if you are a robot

Who said we can't have a loving relationship if you are like a robot?

I have a growing loving relationship with my Creators that has deepened and strengthened over a 36 year period.

 

[One 2 question]

You can not have a loving relationship if you are a robot.
and I think God would have a problem with it.

Did He tell you that He does? I know from experience He finds pleasure in controlling His creation and receives increased glory in the process.

 

[One 2 question]

As long as I am free to accept this function and role. and rely on God to help me fulfill it,

If you want to see it that way then who am I to tell you what to think or believe. I praise Them for whatever They have you think or believe.

Agreed, They carry us along and enable us to fulfil Their plan for us.

 

[One 2 question]

Yet there is evil in this world..

If that is all in Gods plan, and he created it and caused it.. Then I have major problems with this, So should you

Thanks, I definable don't have a single problem with my Creators scripting evil as part of the plot. They never cease to amaze me when They reveal Their wisdom, display Their power, exercise Their sovereignty and most of all, express Their loving kindness towards Their creations.

 

[quietthinker]

Calvin was a lawyer, he saw and interpreted through a legal lens......so did the Pharisees.....and mind you, they weren't all bad as assumed in many Christian circles.
Jesus interpreted and lived through a moral lens, subsequently he could have compassion on those who didn't measure up to the legal model.
Jesus was the brightness of God's glory. In other words, God's glory is to forgive those who offend and lift the down trodden .....even the worst.....and would you believe it, even before they ask or repent. (no doubt that will get some hairs standing up on several necks. )

There is no law against morality. If I give you my life jacket in a sinking boat because there are no others left, that is not a legal choice, it is a moral choice. Jesus gave us his life because it was a moral choice.

 

[One 2 question]

And I know God would have a problem with this. Because he is a god of love.

Isn't it wonderful that our Creators have, out of Their freedom to choose who They want, for what They want, when They want, how They want, why They want, where They want in order to manifest, reveal and express Their love.

What a love story! And we get to be a part of Their production. This is sooo awesome! Thank You Creators.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

YOu wrote three lines of your thinkiing. And with all respect, your thining of what I think and believe is dead wrong.

Par for the course. It is a repeated ongoing thing he does

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who said we can't have a loving relationship if you are like a robot?

I have a growing loving relationship with my Creators that has deepened and strengthened over a 36 year period.

lol. If you are programmed what to do. You do not act out of love, You act out of your programing.

and everything you do, whether good or bad is what your programmed to do..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did He tell you that He does? I know from experience He finds pleasure in controlling His creation and receives increased glory in the process.

Where did you hear this from? Certainly not from God.

God reci8eved Glory when his children chose to do what he asks. Because he gets the credit