Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

Almost my exact point!!
As I had said: "
The Holy Spirit of God IS NOT GIVEN yet to a person, that He is LEADING to repentance (metanoeo) towards God. At that time in a person's life, the mind of God, His Holy Spirit, only comes along side of us, but IS NOT YET permanently within the repentant sinner.

Only until he HEARS the gospel of Christ, of His shed blood for our sins, does he then understand that he must either answer Christ knocking to allow Him to COME INTO HIM, or let Him PASS BY. Rev. 3:20.

Paul came to the point of his repentance, when he "ASKED": Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said [then asked], Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
It is the similar form of asking, as that of the thief on the cross: "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom".

Prior to both cases, neither Paul or the repentant thief received the Holy Spirit, UNTIL after they asked/invited/answered, by opening up their "innermost being" to the call of Christ, through the event/circumstances that they were in.

Prior to them asking and/or requesting (being repentant believers towards God's call), neither one would have received the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit AT ALL, if they IGNORED Him.They would've been deemed by God as being unrepentant unbelievers towards Him.

During their encounter with Jesus, in both cases, the Lord was outside, but being along side of them.
When they asked/requested (repented towards God by the "early rain"), THEN after did the Holy Spirit enter into them, taking up His permanent INDWELLING presence within them.

No repentance (metanoeo), then NO INDWELLING Gift of the Holy Spirit!!

Dear Earburner,
You said:
Almost my exact point!!
As I had said: "
The Holy Spirit of God IS NOT GIVEN yet to a person, that He is LEADING to repentance (metanoeo) towards God. At that time in a person's life, the mind of God, His Holy Spirit, only comes along side of us, but IS NOT YET permanently within the repentant sinner.

Only until he HEARS the gospel of Christ, of His shed blood for our sins, does he then understand that he must either answer Christ knocking to allow Him to COME INTO HIM, or let Him PASS BY. Rev. 3:20.

No, your "point" is not even close to what I have been presenting to you. The Spirit is given first so that the person will respond to the Gospel. Only then will they will repent and call Jesus "Lord". Their repentance happens solely because Christ caused it to happen. Unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, they would NEVER repent or have any faith in Christ. Christ is the one who "chooses" to come and who chooses to give the person the Spirit. After Christ does this spiritual work, the only thing the person will do is repent and call Jesus "Lord". They have no choice in the matter. It is Christ who is "within" the person who causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13).

The person has no ability to "choose" differently than what Christ has caused them to decide:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

You said:
Paul came to the point of his repentance, when he "ASKED": Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said [then asked], Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
It is the similar form of asking, as that of the thief on the cross: "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom".

Prior to both cases, neither Paul or the repentant thief received the Holy Spirit, UNTIL after they asked/invited/answered, by opening up their "innermost being" to the call of Christ, through the event/circumstances that they were in.

Prior to them asking and/or requesting (being repentant believers towards God's call), neither one would have received the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit AT ALL, if they IGNORED Him.They would've been deemed by God as being unrepentant unbelievers towards Him.

That is not what scripture teaches. Your beliefs are stealing from Christ and the spiritual work that He does to save a person. You have changed Christ's true Gospel into the "another gospel" which mixes a person's own works with the works of Christ. When a person accepts Satan's false gospel, they are committing the sin that leads to death and they are fallen from grace.

You said:
During their encounter with Jesus, in both cases, the Lord was outside, but being along side of them.
When they asked/requested (repented towards God by the "early rain"), THEN after did the Holy Spirit enter into them, taking up His permanent INDWELLING presence within them.

No repentance (metanoeo), then NO INDWELLING Gift of the Holy Spirit!!

There are ZERO scriptures which teach this false belief of yours. The Early Rain of the Spirit is given beforehand so that a person will repent and accept Christ. The person has no say in the matter because Christ changed their heart and mind to make the choice that He wanted them to make. They are the workmanship of Christ and they contribute "no works" toward their own salvation:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look what Christ said to Peter:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter's confession was caused by God giving Peter the Early Rain of the Spirit and not by anything that Peter had within him beforehand.

When Christ is ready to save a person, Christ will come to them by His own choosing and freely give them the Spirit. With the Spirit within the person, the person's heart and mind will be changed so that they can only call Jesus "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

You do not believe what God's Word actually teaches, and for that reason, there is no reason to continue this discussion. Showing you more and more scriptures is not going to change your beliefs. You are at the mercy of Christ to come to you and change your heart and mind with the Latter Rain. I recommend that you pray for understanding, and if you are one of the Elect, Christ will give you the Latter Rain of the Spirit which will heal your blindness. There really is no other way to be saved. You, me and the rest of mankind are at the mercy of Christ to save us. He is the Savior and mankind can add nothing to His work. When a person believes that they can (and must), they are fallen from grace.

Joe

 

[Brakelite]

Since all apostate believers ultimately believe in a free will ability (some try to hide it), they all set themselves up to be equal with God who is the only one who has a free will ability.

Aren't they free to believe in free will? Or did God exercise His free will in making them to believe in free will?

 

[Brakelite]

If a person can claim that they are saved because they made the correct free will choice, the saved people could claim that they have something to boast about concerning their salvatio

Since when has anyone boasted of their ability to open a free gift?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Aren't they free to believe in free will? Or did God exercise His free will in making them to believe in free will?

Dear Brakelite,
The only one who has a free will ability is God the Father. Mankind has no such ability.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

God even claims that He is the one who created apostate believers. And yes, God is the one who causes apostate believers to believe in their own supposed free will ability. He does it to humble them when He opens their eyes to the truth.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the Day of Evil (time of being an apostate believer).

When an apostate believer claims to have a free will ability which can resist God's "will", they are claiming to be God.

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Scripture says that even though mankind has no choice in the evil that God causes them to do, Christ will still hold mankind accountable for doing it:

Prov 16:4 The LORD will make all to give an answer: yea, even for the evil of the Day of Evil (time of being an apostate believer).

Paul was asked about the fairness of God's ways in the verses below. See how Paul responds to them:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. THOU WILL SAY THEN UNTO ME, WHY DOTH HE YET FIND FAULT? FOR WHO HAS RESISTED HIS WILL? 19 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Since when has anyone boasted of their ability to open a free gift?

Dear Brakelite,
Mankind has no ability "to open the free gift" of salvation. They also have no ability to ask Christ for it and they have no ability to reject the gift when Christ gives it to them.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind (all mankind has a carnal mind) is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The only hope for mankind is for Christ to come to each person and change their heart and mind. Only AFTER Christ does this spiritual work within a person will they choose to accept Christ as their Lord:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Christ changes a person heart and mind by giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Only then will they make a confession of faith. Mankind has no free will ability to make this confession. That is why salvation is a free gift from Christ. Salvation (even our faith in Christ) must be given to us.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What does an apostate believer claim that separates them from the people who continue to reject Christ?

The answer they give is that it was their free will decision to accept Christ. But by taking credit for their decision, they are saying that they are wiser, smarter or just less evil than those who refused to make the same confession of faith. And they believe that because it was the lost person's fault that they did not make a confession of faith, the apostate believer says that the "lost" deserve their punishment which awaits them in the Lake of Fire.

God's Word says that Christ is the Savior of mankind and that mankind is saved solely because of His work (both His physical and spiritual work). Mankind contributes nothing. And because mankind cannot contribute anything, Christ is the one who decides when He will save a person. In this age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world for the blessing of being saved early. That is why the Elect are called the "first fruits" of the harvest. The main portion of the harvest of mankind will occur at the end of the final age. At that time, Christ will have mercy upon the "lost" and give each of them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by His purifying judgment. After Christ does this work within them, they will be converted into a child of God and will join the Elect in the Kingdom of Heaven. In the end, all who died in Adam, will be made alive in Christ (1Cor 15:20-28).

These two verses below teach the same truth:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

This scripture will then be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (end of the final age).

Joe

 

[Brakelite]

understanding of scripture is filtered through your "works" based belief system.

Has Phoneman chosen his "works based belief system" or did God give it to him?

 

[Brakelite]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God

That goes for you. Your own Calvinistic belief system was given to you by God to humble yourself when He reveals to you the truth. According to your own teaching.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Has Phoneman chosen his "works based belief system" or did God give it to him?

Dear Brakelite,
God gave it to him, but not only to him, God gives it to all new believers (babes who suck milk) when they first begin traveling the pathway to salvation.

The pathway to salvation begins for a person when Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. But because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in measure (a small amount, Deu 32:2, Job 37:6 & Joel 2:23), the new believer will remain carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted.

In this condition, they will still prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Wine is the Old Covenant of Law which is based on the works of man. The works of man are what all the religions of the world are based upon. This is Satan's crooked way.

The belief in man's works tastes better to the carnal mind of mankind. So until a believer is converted and has been given the mind of Christ, they are going to continue to prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine.

Because all new believers (this includes the Elect) remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after being called into the church, Satan is able to deceive them by his carnally pleasing deceptions. They are very powerful.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The Doctrine of Free Will is one of Satan's deceptions and is what his "another gospel" is founded upon. After a new believer accepts Satan's false gospel, they will fall backward, be broken, snared and taken by him:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Only believers who are converted, drawn from the breasts and have become as "little children" can understand knowledge and doctrine.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

For a believer to be converted, Christ must "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13), the believer will then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). After they see it, judgment will fall (Mat 24:16) to remove and destroy the spirit of anti-Christ and their carnality (Mat 24:15-16 & Mat 24:40-41).

In this age, only the Elect will be converted and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. For believers who are called to be saints but not chosen, they will not be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit. As a result, they will die in their apostate condition and will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

But since Christ came to save all mankind, Christ will have mercy upon them before they perish (the true penalty of sin).

This verse applies to them:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Christ's mercy will come to them in the form of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which will birth the new child of God. The child of God will then be gathered up to heaven. The child of the devil (the things that make a person carnal) will remain in the Lake of Fire until he is destroyed. This will satisfy justice.

After the last person of mankind has been converted into a child of God, mankind (children of the devil) will cease to exist, but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

That goes for you. Your own Calvinistic belief system was given to you by God to humble yourself when He reveals to you the truth. According to your own teaching.

Dear Brakelite,
That scripture (Rom 3:10) most certainly applied to me before my conversion. After Christ healed my spiritual blindness so that I could "see" the truth for the first time, I was very humbled.

I now depend on the Lord for everything in my life. He truly directs my steps and He does so by causing me to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13). The works that I do are His works which He does through me. I have nothing I can boast about concerning who I have become. I am only converted and saved because He chose to bless me with His free gift. I am the Lord's workmanship and His bondservant.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

No, your "point" is not even close to what I have been presenting to you. The Spirit is given first so that the person will respond to the Gospel. Only then will they will repent and call Jesus "Lord". Their repentance happens solely because Christ caused it to happen. Unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, they would NEVER repent or have any faith in Christ.

Yes, that is the point that we disagree on, being the two symbolic approaches of God's Holy Spirit, known as "the former and latter rain".
I fully understand the point you are making.
However, in my discussion with you, I perceive that I have not been thoroughly clear in delivering the crucial point that I am making.

My point is: the Holy Spirit of God could never permanently dwell within any person,
who lived life under the OC. The best that God could do for them, was to visit and move them from the outside of themselves to repentance towards Himself. Therefore, those who did hear His voice, could only repent by "having a change of mind", being that of themselves changing their own mind. That form of repentance, in the TR Greek is; "metanoia".
Which is to say, that they could NOT HAVE the permanent indwelling of "the mind [spirit] of Christ", UNTIL AFTER the sacrificial shedding of Christ's blood for our permanent atonement.
We see God's intended goal through typology in Lev. 17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you [through animals] upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Prior to the event of Christ's sacrifice of Himself, the shedding of blood by animals, could ONLY forgive sin temporarily for one year, but it could never permanently remove sin from the individual.

So then, until Jesus first appeared in the flesh, the best that God could do for all who died in faith of "The Promised one who was to come", was to have their names written in the "Book of Remembrance" before Him. Malachi 3:16.

Never once did any one of them, "under the altar" of the OC., ever have the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.

Hopefully, from my point of view, you will see how it was that God the Father Himself needed the sacrifice of Jesus, just as much as we do!!
Otherwise, He could never live and dwell WITHIN US, ever.

2B Cont'd.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, that is the point that we disagree on, being the two symbolic approaches of God's Holy Spirit, known as "the former and latter rain".
I fully understand the point you are making.
However, in my discussion with you, I perceive that I have not been thoroughly clear in delivering the crucial point that I am making.

Dear Earburner,
Some of what you stated is true but you are still misunderstanding the Early Rain of the Spirit and what it does for a person.

The OT faithful received the Early Rain of the Spirit and that is what gave them their faith. They all "died in faith" because the Spirit never left them as you contend. Without the Spirit, they could not have remained in faith.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Since the OT faithful died in faith, they will receive a "better resurrection" than those who died without faith.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Here is the outcome for the OT faithful:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Early Rain of the Spirit gives a person their "faith" but that faith will not convert them into a "perfect" man. However, their faith will justify them before Christ and will make Christ's pathway straight for Him to come and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit and judgment.

The Elect of this age will be used by Christ upon the resurrection of the OT faithful to help with their conversion. After the process of conversion for the OT faithful is complete, they will be "made perfect" just as the Elect were made perfect.

After the conversion of the OT faithful, they will reign with Christ along side of the NT Elect in the final age.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west (the Gentile Elect), and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

For the NT Elect, it is necessary for them to receive both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit BEFORE they die because they will not remain faithful after having received the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is true because of the introduction of the spirit of anti-Christ shortly after the death of Paul. When that spirit came, it devoured the churches that the Apostles started.

After a believer has the spirit of anti-Christ, they will quickly accept Satan's false gospel which mixes "works" with faith. Because of this mixing, they will fall away from faith because they are trying to serve TWO masters. If Christ doesn't come quickly to them before they die, they will die in an unfaithful state.

Here is what happens when the spirit of anti-Christ enters a new believer: When believer has the Early Rain of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within them, a spiritual war will develop between the two. The war is for who will govern the believer's mind. Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in a small measure, the spirit of anti-Christ will win the war. This is when Satan kills the Elect believer as mentioned in Mat 24:9 and Rev 11:7. After the believer is governed by the spirit of anti-Christ, they will come under Satan's deceptions and will fall from grace. It happens to all new believers. No one who is given the Early Rain of the Spirit will remain faithful.

To correct the fallen spiritual condition of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This event will restore them back to faith so Christ will "appear" to them and convert them. This is when the Elect are "made perfect".

For the "many" who are called but not chosen, Christ will not come to them a second time but will let them die in their fallen away condition. They will then be rejected by Christ upon their resurrection and be cast into the Lake of Fire with the unbelievers.

For the OT faithful, Christ will not reject them upon their resurrection because they remained faithful up until their deaths. Christ will then begin their spiritual process of conversion with the assistance of the Elect.

Here are some details on the spiritual process of conversion: When the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) comes to a fallen away Elect beleiver, it will come with strength and will immediately heal the believer's spiritual blindness. From the truth that the believer can now "see", they will come out from Satan's deceptions (they will "see" the A of D). Christ will then follow the Latter Rain of the Spirit with judgment to remove and destroy the spirit of anti-Christ from within the believer. Also at that time, the believer's marred spirit/wicked heart will be removed and destroyed. They will then be fully governed by the Holy Spirit. After they are converted, they will be a "perfect man" and will never fall away again.

You said:
Which is to say, that they could not HAVE the permanent indwelling of "the mind [spirit] of Christ", UNTIL AFTER the sacrificial shedding of Christ's blood for our permanent atonement.

That is only partially true.

The Early Rain of the Spirit was given in enough measure for the OT fathers to remain faithful until their deaths - it just would not convert them and make them perfect.

To be made perfect, a person must also be given the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain). And like you stated, that baptism was not given until after the "sacrificial shedding of Christ's blood for our permanent atonement".

The Early Rain of the Spirit did not require Christ's sacrifice for it to be given to a person. Only the baptism of the Spirit requires Christ's sacrifice.

What I state below is very important and is where the error lies in your understanding:

When you say that the indwelling of the Early Rain of the Spirit is not permanent, you are wrong. It is permanent - but after the spirit of anti-Christ came into the world, the Early Rain of the Spirit was not given in enough measure for it continue governing the person's mind. The deadly head (mind) wound that was delivered by the Early Rain of the Spirit was healed after the spirit of anti-Christ won the spiritual war within the believer. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit did not die within the believer, it was just no longer able to govern the believer's mind. And because it was no longer able to govern their mind, they lost their faithfulness.

Since the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) comes in strength and power, Satan is no match for it:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

2Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit (Latter Rain) of fear; but of POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Cont'd from #250:
As you might recall, I gave the TR Greek definition of the other form of repentance, being that of the word: "metanoia" "is having only a change of our "own mind",

Of the two forms of repentance, only one form of repentance is acceptable to God, and that is "metanoeo"

 Again:
Metanoia: "is having only a change of our "own mind", as that of ceasing from a sinful way of going, of which grants no one the gift of Eternal life.

Metanoeo
Is that of "another mind", that comes along side of our mind, being that of "another Comforter", aka the Holy Spirit of God, of which does grant to us the gift of Eternal life. John 11:26; 1 John 5:11-13.

 

[Earburner]

The OT faithful received the Early Rain of the Spirit and that is what gave them their faith. They all "died in faith" because the Spirit never left them as you contend. Without the Spirit, they could not have remained in faith.

Yes, however, it would be impossible for God's Holy Spirit to permanently dwell within the OC saints, because the blood of Christ was not shed yet for the REMOVAL of sin.
Therefore, the form of repentance that came to them was that of "metanoia", thus having only a change of their own mind, concerning sinful ways of going.
Edit: Yes, they all died in faith believing of the Messiah to come, but they HAD NOT YET received the promised Gift of Eternal Life, until the day of Jesus' death and resurrection, being Himself the FIRSTborn from the dead, who indeed was/is "the First resurrection". "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection....", who is Christ Himself. To be "born again" of His Holy Spirit, is to be a "part-aker of the [His] divine nature".

We all do SEE, that for those of OC. Israel, whose names were written in the "Book of Remembrance" (Malachi. 3:16), God did not forget them, who were "under the altar" [of the OC.]. They are shown as each receiving "white robes", which is symbolic of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the vehicle of God's Eternal Life.
Rev. 6:9-11

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, however, it would be impossible for God's Holy Spirit to permanently dwell within the OC saints, because the blood of Christ was not shed yet for the REMOVAL of sin.
Therefore, the form of repentance that came to them was that of "metanoia", thus having a change of their own mind, concerning sinful ways of going.

Dear Earburner,
You are confusing the attributes of the Early Rain of the Spirit with the attributes of the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Those two Rains are different and need to be rightly divided.

Also, there are no scriptures which teach that the Early Rain of the Spirit only temporarily indwelt the OT saints and there are no scriptures which teach that the Early Rain of the Spirit only came "alongside" the OT believers. Because the OT saints remain faithful until their deaths, the Spirit had to have remained within them. It was not temporary.

Only the Latter Rain of the Spirit was not given until after the resurrection of Christ. But the Early Rain of the Spirit was given beforehand and it remains within those who are given it. And like I said, it will not govern the NT believers because of the spirit of anti-Christ that came into the church after Paul's death. They will remain carnal but with the spirit of anti-Christ, their carnality will be made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

Also, I'm not sure what you are saying about Greek words "metanoia" and "metanoeo". Metanoia is a noun (as in "repentance") and metanoeo is a verb (as in "to repent"). Both mean to change one's mind.

Here are two verses using each:

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (metanoia).

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, repent (metanoeo), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Your definitions of those words seem to be something that an apostate believer applied to them so that to help support their belief in their own "works". You need to discard those definitions and those teachings.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Also, I'm not sure what you are saying about Greek words "metanoia" and "metanoeo". Metanoia is a noun (as in "repentance") and metanoeo is a verb (as in "to repent"). Both mean to change one's mind.

Here are two verses using each:

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (metanoia).

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, repent (metanoeo), and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As I have previously said , all who lived their lives under the OC., could only have their sins forgiven for a period of one year, through the sacrifice of animals. In other words, their sins were never removed.
Only by the Sacrifice of Christ is sin removed. God who is Holy, cannot permanently dwell within anything that IS NOT made to be permanently holy.

Metanoia-
is repentance from sin, in an attempt to be righteous by the Law. Righteousness by the Law is not acceptable by God, for the giving of His Holy Spirit.

Metanoeo-
is repentance towards God, agreeing with God, that one is not righteous at all, thus needing His Grace and forgiveness. Righteousness by faith in His Grace for forgiveness, is acceptable by God, for the giving of His Holy Spirit.

 

[FaithWillDo]

As I have previously said , all who lived their lives under the OC., could only have their sins forgiven for a period of one year, through the sacrifice of animals. In other words, their sins were never removed.
Only by the Sacrifice of Christ is sin removed. God who is Holy, cannot permanently dwell within anything that IS NOT made to be permanently holy.

Metanoia-
is repentance from sin, in an attempt to be righteous by the Law. Righteousness by the Law is not acceptable by God, for the giving of His Holy Spirit.

Metanoeo-
is repentance towards God, agreeing with God, that one is not righteous at all, thus needing His Grace and forgiveness. Righteousness by faith in His Grace for forgiveness, is acceptable by God, for the giving of His Holy Spirit.

Dear Earburner,
The OT faithful were given the Early Rain of the Spirit which gave them their faith. It was their faith that justified them. The Old Covenant had nothing to do with it and does not apply to them. Upon their resurrection from the grave, Christ will come to the OT faithful and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After their judgment, they will be made perfect.

Also, there are not TWO kinds of repentance in the Gospel of Christ.

The "repentance" that the Gospel of Christ requires is a repentance from dead works.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of judgment age-during.

When a person repents from dead works, they are agreeing with God that there is nothing they can do to make themselves acceptable. They recognize that they must rely on Christ to do all the works. This recognition comes from their faith in Christ. Faith comes first, then comes repentance. And to have faith, a person must have the Early Rain of the Spirit because that is what gives them their faith. Christ provides everything for a person's salvation. Mankind contributes nothing.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When a new believer comes under Satan's influence via the spirit of anti-Christ, they will accept Satan's false gospel which is founded upon mixing works with faith. When a new believer does this mixing, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to death. This is the sin that Satan uses to kill the "many" believers who have been called to be saints.

Paul refers to that sin as falling away from faith:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance (from dead works); seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The only way for a fallen away believer to be restored is for Christ to come a second time to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. However, in this age, the second coming of Christ with the Latter Rain of the Spirit is reserved for only the Elect who have been chosen for this blessing. In this way, Christ differentiates the "few" chosen from the "many" called but not chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

When a person repents from dead works, they are agreeing with God that there is nothing they can do to make themselves acceptable. They recognize that they must rely on Christ to do all the works. This recognition comes from their faith in Christ. Faith comes first, then comes repentance. And to have faith, a person must have the Early Rain of the Spirit because that is what gives them their faith. Christ provides everything for a person's salvation. Mankind contributes nothing.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The "early rain" is the Holy Spirit, dwelling OUTSIDE of an unsaved person.

The HOLY Spirit of God cannot permanently take up residence within anyone, who is NOT of faith to believe that God is.
Heb. 11
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder* of them [with Eternal Life]* that diligently seek him.
*1 John 5:11-13

 

[Runningman]

There's a power controlling the world that's responsible for the constant unrest and turmoil and many Christians blame Leftists, Bankers, Islam, Jews, etc., even "right wing" extremists (which are only "extreme" to those who've moved so far left that God, if He exists at all, must be a woman). The truth is that all these agencies are controlled by Satan via a network of Luciferian secret societies whose members are sworn to the strictest secrecy as they pass the torch from one generation to the next, going about their clandestine work of moving the nations toward the final climactic battle between good and evil, controlling politics, education, judicial systems, mass media, and even religion through the papacy in Rome, Satan's "Antichrist" which claims to "take the place of Christ" - the very definition of the term - and a well organized Jesuit Order under which all these secret societies operate. Of course, God is keeping these in check for now, as the angels hold back the "winds of strife" - but soon, those winds will begin to blow hard upon the Earth.

Since the end time deceptions could, if possible, deceive even the very elect, why are so many opposed to "conspiracy theories" - a disparaging term invented by the CIA to discourage public questioning of "official" reports? Christians, being forewarned that deception would define the very end times in which we live, ought to be those most well armed against deception - so the fact that so many scoff at "conspiracy theories" while swallowing whatever is spooned out by CNN or Fox News, by Leftist ideology or popular Conservatism, is strong evidence they may not be among the elect at all, which is most alarming.

Therefore, all Christians ought to be in a constant state of alarm and readiness, either because of the clear and present danger all around us, or because they've been blinded by deception. It's up to us to ensure we're following the "Biblical Jesus" and not some "false christ" preached to us by those who are themselves deceived.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTbHLOB5jHyPxt6B3dZfpVCTpDK6VdBUi&si=ww83B43VZDl_9lr-

And one of the easiest ways to go about this is by simply controlling the language. If one controls how people talk, they control what people think, and they control what people believe. That's why 99% of what one may see on something like Fox or CNN is about agenda setting. It's often something as simple as replacing words that carry negative connotations with something disarming in order to give the perception that things are less dangerous than they actually are. It happens all the time and one may have no-doubt noticed that Orwellian Newspeak has invaded even Christian message boards. The goal is to just get people with morals to accept ideas they would have otherwise rejected.

There is also a lot of repackaging and rebranding of unpopular ideas in order to make agendas easier to receive by the general public. Some examples of this are "cancel culture" which is just another way of saying cultural Fascism. You can't directly encourage people to be a fascist anymore, but you can if you change all of the words and re-sell the same concept under a different title. Same thing with Satanism. They are also selling Satanism under a different brand and some churches are unknowingly eating it up with a big smile on their face. Not just churches, but anyone.

Long story made short, any source that influences thought, i.e., new media, social media, movies, games, books, schools, doctors, etc (especially if they have a large viewer base) are probably infiltrated by people trying to shape societies in a particular direction or are outright ran by them in the first place. Propaganda is everywhere. If one wishes, a way to counter this is by being cognizant of this and simply not perpetuating their language by using it.

 

[Phoneman777]

And one of the easiest ways to go about this is by simply controlling the language. If one controls how people talk, they control what people think, and they control what people believe. That's why 99% of what one may see on something like Fox or CNN is about agenda setting. It's often something as simple as replacing words that carry negative connotations with something disarming in order to give the perception that things are less dangerous than they actually are. It happens all the time and one may have no-doubt noticed that Orwellian Newspeak has invaded even Christian message boards. The goal is to just get people with morals to accept ideas they would have otherwise rejected.

There is also a lot of repackaging and rebranding of unpopular ideas in order to make agendas easier to receive by the general public. Some examples of this are "cancel culture" which is just another way of saying cultural Fascism. You can't directly encourage people to be a fascist anymore, but you can if you change all of the words and re-sell the same concept under a different title. Same thing with Satanism. They are also selling Satanism under a different brand and some churches are unknowingly eating it up with a big smile on their face. Not just churches, but anyone.

Long story made short, any source that influences thought, i.e., new media, social media, movies, games, books, schools, doctors, etc (especially if they have a large viewer base) are probably infiltrated by people trying to shape societies in a particular direction or are outright ran by them in the first place. Propaganda is everywhere. If one wishes, a way to counter this is by being cognizant of this and simply not perpetuating their language by using it.

Speaking of fascism:

"Fascism is the regime that most closely corresponds to the concepts of the Church of Rome". - Cattolliga Civilta ("house organ" publication of the Jesuit Order with direct editorial privileges by the Roman Pontiff himself)​

​

You show this to stupid apostate Protestants...you repeat it over and over for them...you rub their nose it in and make them read it, and they still argue with you on why Jesuit Futurism is "correct" and why Protestant Historicism is "wrong".

 

[FaithWillDo]

The "early rain" is the Holy Spirit, dwelling OUTSIDE of an unsaved person.

The HOLY Spirit of God cannot permanently take up residence within anyone, who is NOT of faith to believe that God is.
Heb. 11
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder* of them [with Eternal Life]* that diligently seek him.
*1 John 5:11-13

Dear Earburner,
There are no scriptures which support your comments. Absolutely zero.

Faith is given to a person by Christ when He gives them the indwelling of the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

"Every man" is referring to the believers in the church who have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives them their "measure of faith".

If "every man" was referring to all mankind, then all mankind would have faith in Christ - but all mankind does NOT have faith in Christ because all mankind does not have the indwelling of the Spirit.

The Corinthian church had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The first three chapters of 1Corinthians clearly shows that this is the case.

Look at what Paul says to them:

1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

A person becomes the temple of God after the Early Rain of the Spirit indwells them. When the spirit of anti-Christ also indwells them, the spirit of anti-Christ is sitting in God's temple (the believer) showing himself that he is God.

When the spirit of anti-Christ and the Early Rain of the Spirit both indwell a person, they will try to serve two masters by mixing "works" (taught by Satan) with faith (taught by Christ). When this happens, the believer will fall away from faith and become a man of sin/Seven Headed Beast.

"Falling away" can only happen to unconverted believers who only have the indwelling of the Early Rain of the Spirit. I explained this truth in my last post. If a believer has both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, they cannot fall away.

Your beliefs don't come from scripture as you believe. They come from the teachings of the ministers of Satan in the apostate church. You need to pray for understanding and for more faith. This is given to a believer only when Christ gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

As I have been saying, we need to end this discussion because the truth of the scriptures I have presented to you are "veiled". If anything changes for you, I would be willing to engage with you again.

Joe