Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Earburner]

So then because of what they did?

Much love!

Ref. #159.
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

 

[marks]

Ref. #159.
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

And how does this mean God took back His promises? I don't understand that. I realize that generation was to be punished, the Bible speaks about that. But taking back His promises? I don't see that.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

By faith! Because they were saved BY FAITH looking forward to the finished work of Christ, and we on the New dispensation are saved BY FAITH looking BACKWARD to it. Nothing has changed in that we are ALL saved the EXACT same way, throughout the two distinct dispensations.



So were the Christians of the New Testament, whether Jewish or Gentiles, who have been slaughtered, martyred, and also died by natural death. If their bodies die before the first OR the second coming, their souls go up to Heaven to be with Christ


Yes. Moses was justified by the Cross. Elijah was justified by the Cross. David was justified by the Cross. They all died IN FAITH looking forward to Christ, and we stand here today justified BY FAITH looking backward to the Cross.
They all had the faith of Christ even though Christ had not come to earth as a man to sanctify them yet. When Christ prayed to the Father to sanctify them, He was praying that ALL of His people would have their sins washed away in His shed blood. From the sins of Abel, to the sins of David, to the sins of Peter, to the sins of you and I. These words uttered by Christ are for our learning, not His. He knew the end from the beginning, but this is spoken that we might believe that this was ordained from before the foundation of the world. That it is in His sanctification that they would all be sanctified. From Abel to Peter to you and me. The truth is, sanctification is the one act that reaches all the way back to the beginning to cover Abel (Adam and Eve included), and all the way forward to today to cover us. Though the ONE ACT of Christ making us all Holy, though it took place once over 2000 years and for all, the efficacy of it is through faith. Faith that Abel had, faith that David had, and faith that you have.

Hebrews 11:13

• "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

They were saved and righteous through faith. None of these had to live to see the promise fulfilled at the Cross in order to have the faith of Christ in salvation, they saw it afar off, through their literal temple, lamb, candlesticks, priests, etc. The same with sanctification, the prophets of old were all Holy men of God who were sanctified by looking forward to the death and resurrection of Christ, while we look backward at it. The faith of Christ reaches back to every saint that ever lived, though Christ had not yet been crucified. For he is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, in its efficacy. Not only for the New Testament period...in its efficacy.

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

Indeed, if any man has a spiritual ear, let him hear. By our sanctification having been ordained from before the foundation of the world, there is absolutely no chance that any elect has not been made Holy. From Moses to Peter To those today. All were sanctified the same way, by the same act of Christ, whose salvation efficacy was a foregone conclusion from God's perspective.



Okay...your point is?



They DID! As it is written, if you have an ear, let him hear. Consider wisely:
Zec 14:8-9
(8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Christ is that LIVING WATER that went out from Jerusalem (Cross). This is talking about Him going forth to the Jew and Gentile. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to salvation first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of verse that follows.

Zechariah 14:9

• "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

I believe this illustrates that there is no longer the division of Jew and Gentile, but we are all Israel, ONE body of Christ and ONE Lord, the Saviour of all the earth. Those who were before not His people, will NOW be His people.

Ephesians 4:4-6

• "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
• One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

So I believe that Zechariah 14:8 is primarily addressing "that" mystery that is revealed here, namely, that salvation is going forth to all the world, and is not primarily just for the Jews. And the kingdom of Israel is extended to the whole world so that both the former and latter sea is nourished by these living waters that go out from Jerusalem.



Of course. The Old Testament Saints received the Holy Spirit the same way we in the New Testament do, for the Holy Spirit went forth to the former sea (Jews first in Old Testmaent) and then the hinder sea (Gentiles in the New Testmaent).



The "souls of them" are all chosen believers who have physically died before the Second Coming, regardless of when they have died. They are not strictly the Old Covenant Jews, but also the New Covenant Saints.

John 7
[36] What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
[37] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The same applied to all the OC saints, who had died in faith believing of "the Promise to come". They also had NOT YET received the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy. The best that God could do for them was to write their names in a "Book of Remembrance", until the day Jesus was glorified through His resurrection and ascension. Malachi 3:16.

Therefore, in Rev. 6:9-11, we see those OC saints, who had lived centuries past, receiving the permanency of the Holy Spirit (white robes) on Pentecost, thus having their names translated into the Book of Life.
They all are now resting and waiting for Jesus visible return from Heaven, of whom shall all come with Him.

 

[covenantee]

And how does this mean God took back His promises? I don't understand that. I realize that generation was to be punished, the Bible speaks about that. But taking back His promises? I don't see that.

Much love!

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But it is clear and plain:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[marks]

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

I don't dispute that.

But neither do I dispute this:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Of course this will be fulfilled through Christ, to those redeemed by Christ. And in this instance, it will be towards His elect nation Israel. He will save them, and fulfill His promises to them.

Maybe you think God cannot save His chosen nation? Is that the issue?

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

And how does this mean God took back His promises? I don't understand that. I realize that generation was to be punished, the Bible speaks about that. But taking back His promises? I don't see that.

Much love!

For those of Israel today, who are of faith in Jesus, they receive the same promise that God has made to all people, since Pentecost, which is to receive the inheritance of Jesus, which is eternal life in His immortal earthen vessel.
For now, we all who born again, are sealed by His Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption. We then shall be changed into His likeness, to be where He is.

 

[covenantee]

I don't dispute that.

But neither do I dispute this:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Of course this will be fulfilled through Christ, to those redeemed by Christ. And in this instance, it will be towards His elect nation Israel. He will save them, and fulfill His promises to them.

Maybe you think God cannot save His chosen nation? Is that the issue?

Much love!

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

In Christ and His New Covenant, there is only one Elect Chosen Nation.

His Church.

 

[marks]

For those of Israel today, who are of faith in Jesus, they receive the same promise that God has made to all people, which is to receive the inheritance of Jesus, which is eternal life in His immortal earthen vessel.
For now, we all who born again, are sealed by His Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption. We then shall be changed into His likeness, to be where He is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "immortal earthen vessel". But yes, I agree with all of this.

I would add that at the end of the age when Jesus returns, all of surviving Israel - the people, descended from Jacob - will come to faith in Christ and will enter the new covenant, and at that time He will restore His redeemed chosen nation to their promised homeland.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

In Christ and His New Covenant, there is only one Elect Chosen Nation.

His Church.

You remember that God chose a people group, and made promises to them, right?

I know I keep posting this same passage, and it's just one of many,

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

This is a promise made to a people group, to the descendants of the man Jacob, and his 12 sons. Either God will or He won't keep the promises made to Jacob's descendants. I believe He will.

And in fact when you look at it, Peter actually addresses those things to the Jews, the diaspora. Jacob's descendants. Just as that was the covenant offered to Israel at Mt. Sinai. Interesting, isn't it?

It all harmonizes together.

God selected 1 nation from among the rest, made promises to them, and will keep those promises. That He's also made a covenant with others doesn't mean He's not going to honor that one, when Jesus fulfilled it's requirements on their behalf. It's unthinkable to me that God would say what is not true, with such strong assurance!

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

You remember that God chose a people group, and made promises to them, right?

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[TribulationSigns]

John 7
[36] What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
[37] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The same applied to all the OC saints, who had died in faith believing of "the Promise to come". They also had NOT YET received the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy. The best that God could do for them was to write their names in a "Book of Remembrance", until the day Jesus was glorified through His resurrection and ascension. Malachi 3:16.

Therefore, in Rev. 6:9-11, we see those OC saints, who had lived centuries past, receiving the permanency of the Holy Spirit (white robes) on Pentecost, thus having their names translated into the Book of Life.
They all are now resting and waiting for Jesus visible return from Heaven, of whom shall all come with Him.

I think you misunderstood here.

God's Word clearly states that:

1.) The Spirit of Salvation WAS with the Old Testament Saints.
2.) With the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a New Dispensation unto the Gentiles.

Yet these spirits are the same Holy Spirit. Not two.

Eph 3:2-6
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Joh 7:35-39
(35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
(36) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
(37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, any idea WHY the Jews said that? ...not a clue huh? Selah!

Joh 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Taking a Scripture out of context in an attempt to FORCE it to mean (not say) that The Holy Spirit had ever before been given. That is complete nonsense! The Holy SPirit of God has been given MANY TIMES throughout Scripture. But it had not been given in this new dispensation of Revelation and salvation to the whole world. For example, what is the Mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, and HOW it that mystery now REVEALED! By the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. The seals are loosed and the books opened that the Spirit of Truth REVEALS these things to the Apostles.

Joh 16:12-15
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Again, I don't make this stuff up, it is written. But you seem to read the Bible is a discursive manner where you just go from one passage to another passage to another attempting to make the Holy Spirit being given in the Old Testament a contradiction. But it is NOT, and never will be. God has given the Spirit of Revelation, and it is plainly written. John 7 does not prove your point, it reveals the gospel will be "made known" to them and they shall preach it to the ends of the Earth. Something which they had never done BEFORE, and which was in fact abhorrent to them before this time...as the Gentiles were looked upon as dogs:

Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Once Jesus was glorified and sent the Holy Spirit of Revelation, only then did they now realize that salvation (that was in old testament period) is REVEALED to go to the Gentile nations. Only then was the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost to this end revealed in them speaking in tongues (the languages of all the other nations, not babbling or gibberish tongues as most taught in charmastic churches). Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it is not true. The fact is, I have no satisfactory to acceptable answer for you...to others, perhaps.

So are you telling me that the Old Testament Saints NEVER received the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not poured yet until Pentecost? Wrong! Consider wisely what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 63:11
(11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Are you going to listen to God's Word or your own ideas of things? As we've seen, it does not really matter to you how many Scirptures I post that show the Holy Spirit of God within His Old Testament prophets, you continue to scoff at it, and deny it, and in essence make God a Liar claiming that the Holy Spirit was not really given in the Old Testament? So what we have here is a miscommunication. We have God's unadulterated Word unambiguously saying it was, and then we have your denials of that? Who should we believe?

1Pe 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Indeed, who are we to believe? You, who thinks that your passage can contradict another passage, or do we take ALL scripture in harmony with itself and not force it to mean things it does not say? You do understand that God "NEVER" said that the Holy Spirit never indwelled man BEFORE the cross, don't you? You do recognize that is your interpretation, not what was actually said...by contrast, I quoted what God actually said. See the difference?...probably not!

Rom 3:4
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Therefore, I am justified in bearing witness to God's Word. The question is, are you justified in denying it?

 

[TribulationSigns]

When did the OC saints receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit permanently?

What are you talking about? Please show the Scripture that says otherwise.

You do know, but the teachings of church-ianity are running rampant in your mind.

Nothing to do with "church-ianity." I quoted verses exactly what God says.

Clue: "ye MUST BE born again".

So you deny that the Old Testament Saints never born again? Well, its not an easy issue to understand to be sure, but what is clear is that we cannot have salvation without having been born of the Spirit from above. That's an impossibility. Because that is precisely what salvation is. Having our sins paid for by the blood of Christ. That's the definition of salvation. You mustn't lose sight of that. Thus, if we want to cling to the idea that no one was born of God "before" the Cross, then of necessity we must also hold that no one was saved before the cross. But then that is contradictory and how was Christ the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world? How then were men of the Old Testament saved by faith? Whose faith, their own? Or the faith of Christ in them? Indeed, even as David spoke under the inspiration of God concerning this renewal that would blot out his sins. And we both know, there is only one renewal that can do that and that is the HOLY SPIRIT! As it is written:

Psalms 51:9-13

• "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
• Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
• Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
• Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
• Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee[/i]."

How would God create in David a new heart except by the Spirit of Christ? The only Spirit of the new man, the only right Spirit of renewal, the only spirit of the joy of salvation. If He didn't have it, then He wasn't saved. But he did have it, and he was saved, and thus the joy of salvation came with the Spirit of Christ without cost. So David and all the Old Testament Saints were indeed born again like we do today!

Selah!

 

[Davy]

But....what about Israel who were under the OC.? Year to year, they had their sins forgiven through the sacrificing of animals, of which that blood could not remove their sins, until the shedding of Christ's blood.
What happened to them, who had been slaughtered, martyred and did also die by natural death?
Did they not by faith look for the "Promised one to come"?
Do we not know of Simeon, who was promised in a vision by God, that he would see the Savior?
Did they not also have to meet the requirement to be "born again" by God's Holy Spirit"?
The permanency of God's Holy Spirit dwelling in anyone, WAS NOT Given to them, UNTIL after the sacrificial death of Christ. He died for the OC saints also!!
We see them in Rev. 6:9-11. The symbolic 144,000 (12 tribes × 12,000) ARE they who are shown "under the altar" of the OC., of which God DID NOT forget them, but purposely "remembered" them. Malachi 3:16.

Per 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4, that is what Jesus did after being resurrected when He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to the dead. He led those out of the heavenly prison house that believed on Him.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 is not about the dead. The subject there is God's SEALING, which is in prep for the "great tribulation", hinted at in Rev.9. Those 144,000 LITERALLY represent 12,000 out of each those 12 tribes written there. They are part of Christ's Church, since they are all shown 'sealed' (by The Holy Spirit).

The "great multitude" at Rev.7:9 is about Gentile believers on Christ, and sealed also for the trib.

Too many WILD concoctions are taught about the 144,000. And that's all those false ideas are, just fantasies created by men who preach they know not what. The Rev.7 scripture means what it says, literally.

 

[Earburner]

Per 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4, that is what Jesus did after being resurrected when He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to the dead. He led those out of the heavenly prison house that believed on Him.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 is not about the dead. The subject there is God's SEALING, which is in prep for the "great tribulation", hinted at in Rev.9. Those 144,000 LITERALLY represent 12,000 out of each those 12 tribes written there. They are part of Christ's Church, since they are all shown 'sealed' (by The Holy Spirit).

The "great multitude" at Rev.7:9 is about Gentile believers on Christ, and sealed also for the trib.

Too many WILD concoctions are taught about the 144,000. And that's all those false ideas are, just fantasies created by men who preach they know not what. The Rev.7 scripture means what it says, literally.

You keep forgetting that under the NC through Jesus, God no longer makes any distinction between Jew and Gentile.
There is no separation of anyone at anytime between the two, during God's Age of Grace through faith in Jesus.

Therefore, the symbolic 144k are the Israel of faith, "under the altar" of the OC, who had waited for the Promise to come, but died in faith believing, and had not yet received the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit, of which COULD NOT be given to anyone until AFTER the shedding of Christ's blood AND His glorification, which was His resurrection and ascension.

 

[Earburner]

What are you talking about? Please show the Scripture that says otherwise.



Nothing to do with "church-ianity." I quoted verses exactly what God says.



So you deny that the Old Testament Saints never born again? Well, its not an easy issue to understand to be sure, but what is clear is that we cannot have salvation without having been born of the Spirit from above. That's an impossibility. Because that is precisely what salvation is. Having our sins paid for by the blood of Christ. That's the definition of salvation. You mustn't lose sight of that. Thus, if we want to cling to the idea that no one was born of God "before" the Cross, then of necessity we must also hold that no one was saved before the cross. But then that is contradictory and how was Christ the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world? How then were men of the Old Testament saved by faith? Whose faith, their own? Or the faith of Christ in them? Indeed, even as David spoke under the inspiration of God concerning this renewal that would blot out his sins. And we both know, there is only one renewal that can do that and that is the HOLY SPIRIT! As it is written:

Psalms 51:9-13

• "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
• Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
• Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
• Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
• Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee[/i]."

How would God create in David a new heart except by the Spirit of Christ? The only Spirit of the new man, the only right Spirit of renewal, the only spirit of the joy of salvation. If He didn't have it, then He wasn't saved. But he did have it, and he was saved, and thus the joy of salvation came with the Spirit of Christ without cost. So David and all the Old Testament Saints were indeed born again like we do today!

Selah!

Correct! David wasn't yet saved. David was speaking in hope of "the Promise that was to come". Many of the patriarchs and prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit of God speaking through them. But, without the shed blood of Christ, NEVER could the Spirit of God stay with them permanently, because "Christ was not yet glorified", which was AFTER His resurrection and Ascension.

However, David and all who were of like faith, had their names written in the book of Remembrance before God. Malachi 3:16.
Rev. 6:9-11 reveals that God did not forget them. Their names are now in the Book of Life, who is Jesus Himself.
We know of them today, as being the symbolic 144,000, who were of Israel, but died under the OC.

 

[Earburner]

I think you misunderstood here.

God's Word clearly states that:

1.) The Spirit of Salvation WAS with the Old Testament Saints.
2.) With the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a New Dispensation unto the Gentiles.

Yet these spirits are the same Holy Spirit. Not two.

Eph 3:2-6
(2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
(4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Joh 7:35-39
(35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
(36) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
(37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, any idea WHY the Jews said that? ...not a clue huh? Selah!

Joh 14:16-17
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Taking a Scripture out of context in an attempt to FORCE it to mean (not say) that The Holy Spirit had ever before been given. That is complete nonsense! The Holy SPirit of God has been given MANY TIMES throughout Scripture. But it had not been given in this new dispensation of Revelation and salvation to the whole world. For example, what is the Mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, and HOW it that mystery now REVEALED! By the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. The seals are loosed and the books opened that the Spirit of Truth REVEALS these things to the Apostles.

Joh 16:12-15
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Again, I don't make this stuff up, it is written. But you seem to read the Bible is a discursive manner where you just go from one passage to another passage to another attempting to make the Holy Spirit being given in the Old Testament a contradiction. But it is NOT, and never will be. God has given the Spirit of Revelation, and it is plainly written. John 7 does not prove your point, it reveals the gospel will be "made known" to them and they shall preach it to the ends of the Earth. Something which they had never done BEFORE, and which was in fact abhorrent to them before this time...as the Gentiles were looked upon as dogs:

Joh 7:38-39
(38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Once Jesus was glorified and sent the Holy Spirit of Revelation, only then did they now realize that salvation (that was in old testament period) is REVEALED to go to the Gentile nations. Only then was the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost to this end revealed in them speaking in tongues (the languages of all the other nations, not babbling or gibberish tongues as most taught in charmastic churches). Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it is not true. The fact is, I have no satisfactory to acceptable answer for you...to others, perhaps.

So are you telling me that the Old Testament Saints NEVER received the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not poured yet until Pentecost? Wrong! Consider wisely what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 63:11
(11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Are you going to listen to God's Word or your own ideas of things? As we've seen, it does not really matter to you how many Scirptures I post that show the Holy Spirit of God within His Old Testament prophets, you continue to scoff at it, and deny it, and in essence make God a Liar claiming that the Holy Spirit was not really given in the Old Testament? So what we have here is a miscommunication. We have God's unadulterated Word unambiguously saying it was, and then we have your denials of that? Who should we believe?

1Pe 1:10-11
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Indeed, who are we to believe? You, who thinks that your passage can contradict another passage, or do we take ALL scripture in harmony with itself and not force it to mean things it does not say? You do understand that God "NEVER" said that the Holy Spirit never indwelled man BEFORE the cross, don't you? You do recognize that is your interpretation, not what was actually said...by contrast, I quoted what God actually said. See the difference?...probably not!

Rom 3:4
(4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Therefore, I am justified in bearing witness to God's Word. The question is, are you justified in denying it?

What many Christians do not understand is that the 1st manifestation of Jesus was to come in the flesh. His 2nd manifestation was on Pentecost by His Spirit, of which we are still in, being under God's Age of Grace.
The 3rd manifestation is Jesus's return from Heaven in all His Immortal Glory, in flaming fire.

WHEN the OT prophets prophesied God's words about the three manifestations of Jesus, they had NO idea IN WHICH of the three manifestations of Jesus, that God's thoughts/words would be fulfilled in. Nor were they knowledgeable of His two other manifestations, as to which words applied, or when.

Why?
Before His 1st manifestation, of him coming in the flesh, it was KEPT SECRET from the foundation of the world.
The prophets, and even the angels, were not allowed to know when Jesus' 1st manifestation would be.

But now that Jesus has come, through "the mind of Christ within US", we can discern the OT prophecies, and know what words there, HAVE BEEN FULFILLED, and which words are not!!

 

[Davy]

What many Christians do not understand is that the 1st manifestation of Jesus was to come in the flesh. His 2nd manifestation was on Pentecost by His Spirit, of which we are still in, being under God's Age of Grace.

That above underlined statement is a FALSE DOCTRINE.

It is called 'Full Preterism' which does NOT believe in a future bodily return of Jesus Christ. Those essentially DENY The New Testament Bible Witness of Christ's future coming.

Earburner's terms "1st manifestation" and "2nd manifestation" he is using to replace the idea of Christ's 1st coming and Christ's 2nd coming. Christ's 2nd coming has NEVER happened yet. But those on men's false FULL PRETERISM doctrine treat Christ's appearance to His Apostles after His resurrection as a 2nd coming.

 

[Earburner]

That above underlined statement is a FALSE DOCTRINE.

It is called 'Full Preterism' which does NOT believe in a future bodily return of Jesus Christ. Those essentially DENY The New Testament Bible Witness of Christ's future coming.

That was very subtil of you, of neglecting to paste my complete understanding (post #176), whereby I explicitly state and reveal the Lord's visible and Glorious return from Heaven, in His Immortality.
It was the only way for you to deny the truth, so that you could defend your own way of going. That's sad.

 

[Earburner]

I don't dispute that.

But neither do I dispute this:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Of course this will be fulfilled through Christ, to those redeemed by Christ. And in this instance, it will be towards His elect nation Israel. He will save them, and fulfill His promises to them.

Maybe you think God cannot save His chosen nation? Is that the issue?

Much love!

Actually no. No one has been bodily redeemed by Christ yet.
Jer. 31:31-34 has been happening ever since Pentecost, and is the description of it. It's called the Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.

Verses 36 and 37 is the understanding, that all of the "ordinances", that is being done by God now, since Pentecost, WILL have departed from before God on the Day of Jesus' Glorious return. 2 Peter 3:10-12. The end of His Age of Grace will be then, and Israel will cease to be a nation before God forever.

Verse 37- With today's technology, the heaven above, (the atmosphere/planets) has been measured, and so also the depths of the earth have been searched by the same.

 

[Timtofly]

John 7
[36] What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
[37] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The same applied to all the OC saints, who had died in faith believing of "the Promise to come". They also had NOT YET received the permanency of the Gift of God's Holy. The best that God could do for them was to write their names in a "Book of Remembrance", until the day Jesus was glorified through His resurrection and ascension. Malachi 3:16.

Therefore, in Rev. 6:9-11, we see those OC saints, who had lived centuries past, receiving the permanency of the Holy Spirit (white robes) on Pentecost, thus having their names translated into the Book of Life.
They all are now resting and waiting for Jesus visible return from Heaven, of whom shall all come with Him.

Are you saying that those created on the 6th day were literal "gods" on earth, all Father, Son, and Holy Spirit living on the earth?

Otherwise you saying that the robe of white is the permanency of the Holy Spirit does not make sense. Either we are gods or we are the image of God: soul, body, and spirit. That white robe is just God giving us back our spirit we should be in, instead of in Adam's dead corruptible image, just a soul and dead flesh.