22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Illuminator]

You know how many posts are in this thread at this point? I have posted about the purgatory nonsense, the pope nonsense, the sinless Mary nonsense, the literal drinking of Jesus's blood and literal eating of His body nonsense and other doctrinal nonsense that Catholics believe. You are being lazy. You expect me to go back and give you post numbers? Go find them and stop being lazy.

Let's put your "false Catholic doctrines" in a phrase, topic or question form as per my signature. It's one click away. That way you can critique what we really believe instead of conjuring up more phantoms. But you refuse to do that, because you are afraid of the truth. You find comfort in phantoms of your own creation.

If Catholic doctrines are as false as you say, then the Nicene Creed is false, which makes you anti-Protestant.

 

[Illuminator]

You know how many posts are in this thread at this point? I have posted about the purgatory nonsense,

Purgatory began in kernel form with the Jews, not the Catholic Church.

Protestants falsely argue that purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then original sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if original sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must purgatory be accepted. [“Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?”: published in The Catholic Answer, Sep. / Oct. 1995]

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it. The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural; Protestants deny that it is). [A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, May 1996]
Further reading:
Purgatory in the Bible (vs. Calvin #60) Purgatory in the Bible (vs. Calvin #60)

25 Bible Passages Indicating or Suggesting Purgatory

A surprising amount of scriptural data exists in favor of purgatory. The Church fathers massively recognized this; modern Protestants mostly ignore it.

www.patheos.com

11 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine and St. Jerome all saw descriptions of purgatory in the Bible.

www.ncregister.com

 

[Illuminator]

You know how many posts are in this thread at this point? I have posted about the purgatory nonsense, the pope nonsense,

Everything you have read or heard about the pope is false, so I don't know where to begin.

 

[Illuminator]

You know how many posts are in this thread at this point? I have posted about the purgatory nonsense, the pope nonsense, the sinless Mary nonsense,

Let's talk about what the reformers taught about Mary, and compare it with todays cover-ups by radical Protestants.

 

[covenantee]

I repeatedly-challenged you afterward to explain why you adhere too the 39-Book OT Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Bar Kokhba), in the 2nd century.

Jesus quoted copiously from books in the Canon which you claim to be false.

Jesus never quoted from your aprocryphal "canon".

 

[Illuminator]

Ask someone today where Western Civilization originated, and he or she might say Greece or Rome. But what is the ultimate source of Western Civilization? Bestselling author and professor Thomas E. Woods, Jr. (not a Catholic) provides the long neglected answer: the Catholic Church. In the new paperback edition of his critically-acclaimed book, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Woods goes far beyond the familiar tale of monks copying manuscripts and preserving the wisdom of classical antiquity. Gifts such as modern science, free-market economics, art, music, and the idea of human rights come from the Catholic Church, explains Woods. In How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, you’ll learn:

• Why modern science was born in the Catholic Church
• How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
• How the Catholic Church invented the university
• Why what you know about the Galileo affair is wrong
• How Western law grew out of Church canon law
• How the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
  
  No institution has done more to shape Western civilization than the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church—and in ways that many of us have forgotten or never known. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is essential reading for recovering this lost truth.

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization: Woods Jr., Thomas E., Cañizares, Cardinal Antonio: 9781596983281: Books - Amazon.ca

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization: Woods Jr., Thomas E., Cañizares, Cardinal Antonio: 9781596983281: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

 

[Illuminator]

Jesus quoted copiously from books in the Canon which you claim to be false.

BofL has not claimed canonized books are false, you are.

Jesus never quoted from your aprocryphal "canon".

First, the 7 books Luther threw out are called Deuterocanonicals, "apocryphal" books include uninspired books.
Second, there is no evidence of a 66 book canon used anywhere in any church until the 14th century. It's another man made tradition.
Third;
Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 – Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 27:43 – if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 – description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 13:29 – the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 – Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 – Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 – Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 – the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Scripture Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents. Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure. Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto...

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[covenantee]

BofL has not claimed canonized books are false, you are.

First, the 7 books Luther threw out are called Deuterocanonicals, "apocryphal" books include uninspired books.
Second, there is no evidence of a 66 book canon used anywhere in any church until the 14th century. It's another man made tradition.
Third;
Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 – Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 27:43 – if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 – description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 13:29 – the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 – Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 – Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 – Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 – the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Scripture Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents. Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure. Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Classic papist presumption and prevarication.

"Follows" turns them into Holy Spirit Inspired Scripture.

Thanks for the guffaws.

Unlike Jesus' OT references, never did He describe anything apocryphal in what you claim as "follows" in a manner confirming inspiration e.g. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.”

 

[Illuminator]

Classic papist presumption and prevarication.

"Follows" turns them into Holy Spirit Inspired Scripture.

Thanks for the guffaws.

Unlike Jesus' OT references, never did He describe anything apocryphal in what you claim as "follows" in a manner confirming inspiration e.g. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.”

Now you dismiss the couplets given because they are all not word-for-word OT/NT proof texts. That's no way to read the Bible. Changing the goal posts doesn't help your arrogant denials.

Acts 1:15 – Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 – leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 – Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 – description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 – Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 – specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 – the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 – this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 5:12 – description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 – usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 – Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 – warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 – Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 – Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 – what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 – if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 – Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 – Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 – in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 – Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 – Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 – Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 – Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb. 12:12 – the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 – let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 – it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 – it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 – James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 – describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 – condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 – Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 – God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 – God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 – God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 – power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 – reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 – God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 – prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 – raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 – raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 – the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 – description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 – the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 – the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 – description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 – the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 – do not slay the innocent and righteous – Dan. 13:53 – do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 – the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Classic papist presumption and prevarication.??? What a weak and impotent reply.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

 

[covenantee]

Now you dismiss the couplets given because they are all not word-for-word OT/NT proof texts. That's no way to read the Bible. Changing the goal posts doesn't help your arrogant denials.

Acts 1:15 – Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 – leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 – Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 – description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 – Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 – specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 – the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 – this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 5:12 – description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 – usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 – Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 – warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 – Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 – Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 – what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 – if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 – Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 – Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 – in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 – Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 – Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 – Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 – Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb. 12:12 – the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 – let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 – it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 – it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 – James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 – describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 – condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 – Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 – God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 – God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 – God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 – power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 – reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 – God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 – prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 – raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 – raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 – the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 – description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 – the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 – the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 – description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 – the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 – do not slay the innocent and righteous – Dan. 13:53 – do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 – the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Classic papist presumption and prevarication.??? What a weak and impotent reply.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Debunked bilge and bunkum.

The writers of Scripture were not inspired by the apocrypha.

They were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You ignored:
Unlike Jesus' OT references, never did He describe anything apocryphal in what you claim as "follows" in a manner confirming inspiration e.g. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.”

 

[Illuminator]

Debunked bilge and bunkum.

The writers of Scripture were not inspired by the apocrypha.

They were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You ignored:
Unlike Jesus' OT references, never did He describe anything apocryphal in what you claim as "follows" in a manner confirming inspiration e.g. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.”

I didn't ignore it, your criteria for finding the Deuterocanonicals in the New Testament is based on a false premise. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.” is a circular argument. “as it is written” or “as the Scripture says.” never gives a list of what books belong in the Bible in the first place. That's your problem, not ours.

The canon of Scripture went unchallenged for several centuries until a mentally ill Augustinian monk got angry with the pope. Luther wanted to throw out 5 NT books but his peers stopped him. That's the premise of your authority of the canon of the OT. The Church got the 27 NT books right, but it took 1200 years for one persons opinions to notice the OT list was wrong? That makes no sense.

"apocrypha" is Protestant terminology that incorrectly blankets all apocrypha writings with the Deuterocanonicals. They are not one and the same. i.e. the Gospel of Thomas is classified as apocryphal, but rejected by the Church as uninspired.
The Church knows what belongs in the NT, but doesn't know what belongs in the OT?

 

[Illuminator]

In the sixteenth century, the Protestant Reformers removed a large section of the Old Testament that was not compatible with their theology. They charged that these writings were not inspired Scripture and branded them with the pejorative title “Apocrypha.”

Catholics refer to them as the “deuterocanonical” books (since they were disputed by a few early authors and their canonicity was established later than the rest), while the rest are known as the “protocanonical” books (since their canonicity was established first).

Following the Protestant attack on the integrity of the Bible, the Catholic Church infallibly reaffirmed the divine inspiration of the deuterocanonical books at the Council of Trent in 1546. In doing this, it reaffirmed what had been believed since the time of Christ.

Who Compiled the Old Testament?

The Church does not deny that there are ancient writings which are “apocryphal.” During the early Christian era, there were scores of manuscripts which purported to be Holy Scripture but were not. Many have survived to the present day, like the Apocalypse of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, which all Christian churches regard as spurious writings that don’t belong in Scripture.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God. They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church — the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life — the Septuagint.

The Apostles & the Deuteros

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands — especially without warning them against them.
read more here

 

[PinSeeker]

No – unless YOU mean something very different by “Church”.

Yes, I mean something quite different than you by Christ Jesus's Church. I think that was established from the outset.

Scripture does NOT support the idea of an “invisible” church.

Jesus Christ's Church consists of God's elect, those who have been called by the Lord and born again of the Spirit and are therefore in Christ. We cannot know exactly who this is, who make up His Church. In that sense, it is invisible... to us.

"For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)​

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:8-11)​

Over and over we are told how it is a visible entity (Matt. 5:15) with members that NEED each other (1 Cor. 12:1-31).
There are first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:28). Nothing "invisible" about that . . .

Well the Lord gives spiritual gifts to His people, gifts of the Spirit, and these are for the common good, yes. Romans 12 is clear on this also, I agree. You're either missing or avoiding the point, BreadOfLife. Some of both, I think, but I can't really know... (see what I did there? :))

I didn’t say thwarted – I said, diminished.

Yes, and you were talking about something different than I was. Specifically, I was responding to your alarmist statement (you actually used the word 'alarming' in reference to people leaving the church).

And you can't have "MOST" people headed for desctruction if the numbers are increasing . . .

God calling people unto Himself and thereby building His kingdom is a very different thing than mere numbers of people leaving the church. Why are they leaving churches? Lots of reasons, but basically, as I have said at least three times now, as John says, they are going out from us because they are not of us and even proving to us that they are not of us. I would assert that the number of folks God had/has actually called was always much, much less than the number of folks merely professing belief in Jesus... or, in the case of others, merely going through the motions for one reason or another. Ergo, my reasoned assertion that the number of true believers is actually increasing ~ God is building His kingdom; it is becoming ever larger, just as He promised ~ even while the number of people remaining in churches is decreasing.

Well, no, it’s not.

Okay, well, again, regarding denominations in general and whether the Catholic Church is one of them, again, we can agree to disagree.

Denominations are re-named offshoots of the Original.

I... honestly can't even make sense of this... :) Denominations are recognized autonomous branches of the visible Christian Church, religious organizations whose congregations are united (at least somewhat) in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church qualifies intensely as such.

Jesus compares His very SELF to His Church (Acts 9:4=5).

Are you sure about this Scripture reference? This is right in the middle of Paul's conversion: "And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting." Seems you may be referring to some other passage...?

Paul refers to the Church as the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23)

Well, in the sense that, as he writes in Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...", and earlier in this passage, specifically in Ephesians 1:3, that "God the Father... has blessed us in Christ..." We will agree that Paul is indeed talking about Christ's universal church. But we will disagree, obviously, that Christ's universal Church is limited to Catholics. :)

In much the same sense, BreadOfLife, God's Israel is not just a parcel of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea ~ God's Israel is a people that God calls to Himself out of every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ and Jews are not merely ethnic Jews ~ the true Jew, the one truly of God's Israel, is one inwardly, and circumcised of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter, and his/her praise is not from man but from God, as Paul writes in Romans 2:29.

You CANNOT know Jesus without knowing His Church...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, so I'm not going to disagree with it outright. But if you mean by this statement what it seems, on its face, to mean, I would very much disagree with this, too. Aside from any possible disagreement here, though, I would just say, one will never know Jesus without... His knowing that person, in the sense of the discussion we were having a bit ago with regard to this knowledge and what it really is. :) As John says, "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

It's "Catholic dogma" that Protestant factions teach different doctrines based on the SAME Scriptures??
HUH??

LOL! Wow. No, it's Catholic dogma that, as you said, "the Catholic Church... is the Original Tree... from which the Protestant denominations were born." Maybe 'dogma' was not the most accurate label to put on that, but that assertion is quite ridiculous, and wrong Scripturally, as I said. I actually kind of wonder (but just kind of... :)... if the Pope himself would make such a statement, or if that's just a BreadOfLife original... :) But that matters not, either, I guess.

There are faithful Catholics within the Catholic Church – and there are dissidents. They’re called, “Protestants” . . .

Well, in a worldly sense ~ and dogmatic sense ~ ...whatever. As I said to Illuminator (quoting myself), "The whole impetus of the Reformation was to return Christianity back to Scripture and its Scriptural roots ~ and to thereby to promote unity rather than somehow detracting from it... The purpose of the Reformation was most assuredly not "endless division." To suppose it was or even to try to paint it that way is ridiculous, really; it was quite the opposite of "endless division."

Grace and peace to you!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Non of these things are in a worship setting.

H E L L O ? ? ?

PRECISELY.

And neither are the paintings and statues in a Catholic Church. They are REMINDERS – just like the Golden Cherubim on top of the Ark that Moses made of the Giant statues of Angels that Solomon placed in the Temple.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh, so you think your doctrines regarding purgatory, the pope, Supposedly Sinless Mary, etc. are sound doctrines with no holes in them, do ya? LOL! Thanks for yet another laugh, Einstein Junior. And for the continuous clown show.

I’ve given Biblical answers for ALL of those doctrine.

YOU said that you "poked plenty of holes" in them.
Care to show me WHICJ doctrine you did that to??

 

[PinSeeker]

The Apocrypha is not called the Apocrypha for disparaging reasons; lots of things are called “apocryphal.” but that merely means of dubious authenticity ~ without the historical evidence to back up its claim to be genuine. With regard to the Apocrypha itself, none of the books of the Apocrypha were in the original Hebrew canon received by the ancient Jews, the Scriptures that Jesus Himself quotes from extensively as carrying God’s authority. That’s why Protestants have reasoned that while the books of the Apocrypha have some value...

NOTE: Martin Luther himself, the man who started the Reformation by nailing his 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany, in 1517, in his 1534 translation of the Bible, refers to the Apocrypha as “books which are not held equal to the sacred Scriptures, and nevertheless are useful and good to read”​

...they should not be recognized as canonical. That is, they should not be recognized as being divinely inspired and suitable for establishing Christian doctrine and practice. Their value lies in the fact that they help us better understand the history, politics, and culture of the four-hundred-year period between the time when the Old Testament was completed and the time when the New Testament era began. So they give us some valuable context as we read the New Testament.

Another reason Protestants don’t recognize the Apocrypha as Scripture is that the New Testament writers themselves didn’t recognize the Apocrypha as Scripture. The New Testament writers quote the Old Testament as Scripture roughly three hundred times, but they never quote the Apocrypha in that way. It’s true that there are occasional allusions to the Apocrypha, but they’re never spoken of as Scripture or as divinely inspired.

And in fact, it wasn’t until the Council of Trent in April 1546 that the Roman Catholic Church decreed that the canon of the Old Testament should ~ with the exception of the Prayer of Manasseh and 1 and 2 Esdras ~ contain the Apocrypha. Some of the church fathers do quote regularly from the Apocrypha in the second and third centuries. But many of them didn’t read Hebrew, which meant that they were reading the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which included the Apocrypha. However, again, those books were most certainly not included in the original Hebrew Old Testament. And actually, church fathers who did know Hebrew, such as the great biblical scholar Jerome, tended to reject the Apocrypha as not canonical, and even many Roman Catholics at the Council of Trent didn’t want these books to be formally recognized as Scripture.

So while these Apocryphal books are worth reading for the background they can give us to the New Testament, we shouldn’t mistake them for the real deal, those sixty-six books of Scripture that carry with them the weight of God’s inspiration and authority.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Blasphemy isn't a doctrinal matter?!

Thanks for the guffaw.

You haven’t showed me a SINGLE example of “blasphemy”.

If you spent less time on the “guffaws” and mor time actually READING the entire quotes you post instead of cherry-picking them – you might actually have a semi-intelligent post.

EPIC FAIL . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus quoted copiously from books in the Canon which you claim to be false.

Another LIE . . .

I never said that your 39-Book OT Canon was “False”., I said it is INCOMPLETE.
It is missing 7 other Books as well as portions of Daniel and Esther.

Jesus never quoted from your aprocryphal "canon".

That’s NOT what I asked you.

I asked you to explain WHY you adhere to the 39-Book OT Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Bar Kokhba), in the 2nd century.

Can you explain?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's put your "false Catholic doctrines" in a phrase, topic or question form as per my signature. It's one click away. That way you can critique what we really believe instead of conjuring up more phantoms. But you refuse to do that, because you are afraid of the truth. You find comfort in phantoms of your own creation.

Afraid of the truth? That is a lie. No matter what I say about Catholic doctrine (and I've said things about some of those doctrines already, which you ignore), you will disagree. So, what is the point? This is not a Catholic doctrines forum, it's an eschatology forum. So, that's primarily what I'm here to discuss. You should try staying on topic some time. It's not too hard.

If Catholic doctrines are as false as you say, then the Nicene Creed is false, which makes you anti-Protestant.

View attachment 32862

So, you just say something like this with no explanation of what you're talking about. This is meaningless. I couldn't care less about some creed. I care about scripture. I disagree with a lot of Catholic doctrine and I also disagree with some things that Protestants believe. So, I couldn't care less if I'm considered both anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant.

 

[covenantee]

Another LIE . . .

I never said that your 39-Book OT Canon was “False”., I said it is INCOMPLETE.
It is missing 7 other Books as well as portions of Daniel and Esther.

That’s NOT what I asked you.

I asked you to explain WHY you adhere to the 39-Book OT Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Bar Kokhba), in the 2nd century.

Can you explain?

Jesus never quoted from your aprocryphal "canon".

Irrespective of what you asked me, is that a true statement?