22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Illuminator

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Tell me even one lie that I believe about the Catholic faith.
You already asserted 2 lies. The first was in post #8224, where you demonize the colors purple and scarlet. It wasn't funny. I quoted that with a reply in post #8251 that demolished your twisted version of Revelation, and you back-peddle by saying you were just being humorous.

you responded with "You're not getting it" and expanded with an evasive non-answer.
Your second lie was the "earn your own salvation" myth. That's the Pelegian heresy that you borrowed from anti-Catholics. Catholicism has never taught you can earn your salvation. Certain professional liars, who know better but lie anyway, produce books and videos that lie with this myth. Here's an example
No kidding. Anything else obvious you want to share that we all know?
What's obvious to me is not obvious to most readers. You are an anti-trinitarian, anti-Protestant troll who should be confined to the Unorthodox Doctrine forum.
What does that even mean?
It means the Bible is a fruit of the Church, not the other way around.
That's making me have to rethink my beliefs on that then.

I'm kidding. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.


Are you talking to those people or to me? Could you try talking to me? I don't believe good works and works of the law are the same. Scripture teaches both that we are not saved by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and we are not saved by doing works of the law. Good works are things we do AFTER becoming saved (Ephesians 2:10) as we are led by the Holy Spirit who indwells us when we become saved AFTER repenting and putting our faith and trust in Christ as our Lord and Savior. We don't do good works in order to become saved or else we could boast about saving ourselves. Do you understand this? I don't believe Catholic doctrine teaches this.
It doesn't. See Here's an exampl
My "private interpretations" that are shared by MANY other people? You must have a strange definition of private interpretations.
No, your "private interpretations" are shared by MANY anti-Catholics and they are so common it's boring.
 
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WPM

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How is that LESS insulting???

Yes, according to laughable morons like Alexander Hislop or fundie bigots like Dave Hunt. The same nonsense is propagated by the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses plus all their splinter groups, along with the Christadelphians and legions of other made-in-America Bible clubs, all trying to deceiving good Christians into demonizing an institution that focuses on helping people.

Then enlighten us as to where Jesus was crucified.

Yea, "near the city" is just as good as "part of Mystery Babylon". Polemics.

"outside the city gate" "near the city", so it's not Jerusalem??? What city anywhere in the world excludes it's surrounding areas as being part of the city? You are playing word games.

Yeah right! Everyone who stands for biblical truth and orthodox Christianity are "morons" and "fundie bigots" yet everyone who defends a pedophile riddled misrepresentation of Christ is wholesome and right. No, it is the opposite way around. Come ye out from among her lest ye be smitten with her plagues.
 
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BreadOfLife

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It is to laugh.

What came first?
Scripture, or the Church?
Illuminator is correct.

The New Testament came out of Church - NOT the other way around.
There was NO official Canon of Scripture for the first 300 years of the Church.

There were MANY Books that were considered to be “Scripture” during that time, including the Epistles of Barnabas, The Shepherd of Hermas, The Gospel of Peter. The Protoevangelium of James, The Letter of Clement, etc.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

These are the irrefutable historical FACTS.
 
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BreadOfLife

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No, I can do better when I feel like it. But, are you claiming to not be an overly dramatic drama queen? You think arguing over who is or is not a Protestant is really worth a ton of your time and effort? As if what label you put on someone is the most important thing in the world?
Uhhhh, this who “Protestant” issue was brought up by YOU.
All I did was set you straight on the definition.

Soooooo, if you’re pointing to “drama queens” – take a look in the
mirror . . .
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No, I'm overly dramatic just in forums when I am addressing self-righteous arrogant anti-Catholic bigots that end up in my ignore bin. They, like you, refuse to bend from false caricatures ignoring mountains of evidence to the contrary.
At least you admit to being overly dramatic. That's the first step in correcting bad behavior.

We think faith and reason are compatible. In fact, there is a whole encyclical on Faith and Reason.
What you think are ridiculous beliefs are ridiculous to you because you haven't a clue what they are or where they came from. So you post photos.
That's a lie. I know what your beliefs are.

Symbols don't give eternal life.
Who said they did? Symbols represent things that give eternal life. We receive eternal life because of having faith in Christ and what He accomplished by sacrificing Himself and shedding His blood for our sins. To think that we actually eat His body and drink His blood is the most ridiculous belief imaginable. If you believe that, you will believe anything.

I have no idea what false beliefs you are talking about. There are no false beliefs in Catholicism.
LOL! You guys are professional comedians. I mean that. You are hilarious. There are MANY false beliefs in Catholicism and I have mentioned some of them several times in this thread already.

Just the ones dreamed up by arrogant anti-Catholics who don't have a clue what they are talking about and are too proud to be corrected.
I know what I'm talking about because my understanding comes from scripture. Your understanding comes from things false teachers came up with in their very active imaginations long ago.

That's exactly what I am talking about. I've seen this "earn your own salvation" myth a thousand times. It's taught by liars who know better but lie about it anyway. here's a sample.
I don't ever click on external links from here, so just tell me what you're talking about. Explain to me your understanding of what is required to become saved.

Yup, and every heretic in the patristic period claimed the same thing.

Catholics are amillennialists too. Maybe we can find some common ground if you would stop trolling with stupid insults with every post.
Why do you and the other Catholic here say nothing pertaining to the topic of this thread then? You don't seem too interested in talking about amillennialism or refuting premillennnialism.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Uhhhh, this who “Protestant” issue was brought up by YOU.
All I did was set you straight on the definition.

Soooooo, if you’re pointing to “drama queens” – take a look in the
mirror . . .
You do not seem capable of setting anyone straight about anything. You are not the ultimate authority on what terms mean. Get over yourself already. Your arrogance level is off the charts. Humble yourself so that you can learn what is actually true.
 

BreadOfLife

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You do not seem capable of setting anyone straight about anything. You are not the ultimate authority on what terms mean. Get over yourself already. Your arrogance level is off the charts. Humble yourself so that you can learn what is actually true.
I know it’s difficult for a moral-relativist like yourself to understand but you’re either a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant Christian.

Anything else is somethingbut it ain’t Christian
.
 

PinSeeker

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I think you’re leaving out those who really DID follow Christ faithfully – THEN fell away into false teaching.
Well, yes, because Peter himself is doing that. As for those who did (and who do) "really did follow Christ faithfully," because salvific faith itself is the gift of God (as Paul is crystal clear in enunciating in Ephesians 2:8), then those who truly fall away from the faith ~ "go out" from the people of God because they are themselves "not of" the people of God, as, again, John puts it (John's actual wording in quotes here) ~ then yes, the group of folks you are talking about are purposely excluded by Peter in what he says in 2 Peter 2, and I am merely following suit.

He is presupposing that they are followers.
Well, rather than 'presupposing,' I would actually say singling out,. This is not a huge distinction, but it is what Peter is doing in this entire passage in 2 Peter 2 ~ singling out those who are with true followers for a time... and even suppose themselves to be fellow true followers, but then subsequently, again, go out from the true followers because they are not true followers, even proving themselves not to be of the true followers to the true followers themselves. So, not of them, not possessing the same God-given faith, which, as I'm sure you know, is the assurance from God the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, which is what we read in Hebrews 11: 1, that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

“You are salt and light” is aimed at His followers, not everyone in general.
I agree in principle, BOL, with the "not everyone in general" part... :) But again, in everything He says in His Olivet discourse, Jesus is proclaiming the Gospel open to everyone, and not just to ethnic Jews only ~ everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, is eligible to receive His Good News. Yes, not everyone will actually be His salt and light; not everyone is given to Him by the Father and thus are not His sheep and do not hear His voice (John 10), but that is not His point in the sermon on the Mount of Olives. Universal eligibility is His point... people of any tongue, tribe, and nation.

You posted Phil. 1:6 as “proof” that God will sustain us no matter what – but you left OUT the preceding verse that has the CONDITION:

Phil. 1:5-6

because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In EVERY case of a promise – there is a condition.
Okay, no offense, BOL, but you are misreading that. :) Paul, in Philippians 1:5-6, says he is sure... confident... that God has begun a good work in them and that He will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus ~ because of their partnership in the gospel with him ('him' being Paul himself). This is in no way a condition of God's promise, but merely the reason for Paul's confidence that they have the same God-given faith that he does, and as such are as much in Christ as he himself, and as such are as secure in Christ as he is. What he's saying here is very much parallel to what he says at the end of Romans 8, that "we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us..." and that he is "sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

How anyone, Catholic, Protestant (because many Protestants, primarily western Protestants, believe this), or otherwise Christian can somehow suppose that we who are truly born again of the Spirit are not secure in our salvation is... Well, again, not to offend anyone or in any way pronounce them unintelligent, but that is a terrible misunderstanding of what God has said. It doesn't make them somehow "less Christian" ~ those who are in Christ are in Christ ~ or to be "looked down on" in any way, but it is... well, it is a heartbreaking misunderstanding, to be quite honest. God gives us this assurance, and the Holy Spirit convicts us, among other things so that we will be assured of our security, that we will no longer wonder if God loves us or not.

Once again, cooperation with God’s grace is the key.
No, but it's an inevitability, if God's particular salvific grace has been bestowed on the individual, because of the Spirit's initial work of faith and subsequent ongoing work of sanctification in us. The key is God's grace itself. :) It depends on Him and His mercy and compassion, which is given to some and not to others, and not on man's willing or working, as Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, where, again, Paul writes:

"Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharoah, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

Finally – our good works were planned ahead for us. HE created them,. We’re just the instruments that finish them.
I agree! But BOL, you're actually contradicting yourself in a way... you're saying He created them, which I wholeheartedly agree with (especially because that's what Paul says in Ephesians 2... :)), but really in saying that our works are a condition of God's promise, that "our works are created" by ourselves and not God, which is directly opposite of what Paul says in that Ephesians 2 passage.

Again, though, I agree with this statement of yours here as it stands, but it is because of His ongoing work in us, which, again, is precisely what Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13. To flesh that out with explanatory interjections:

We are to "work out your (our) own salvation with fear and trembling..." ~ this is our responsibility and the outward evidence of our God-given faith and resulting love for the triune Jehovah​

"..., for it is God who works in you (us)..." ~ 'for' emphasized (also 'because'), so what follows is the impetus, the direct cause, of the preceding working out of our own salvation​

"...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." ~ the modifier of those two infinitives, 'to will' and 'to work' is 'you/us'... we do the willing and working, but again, it is because of God's work in us.​

Grace and peace to you, BreadOfLife.
 
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covenantee

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Illuminator is correct.

The New Testament came out of Church - NOT the other way around.
There was NO official Canon of Scripture for the first 300 years of the Church.

There were MANY Books that were considered to be “Scripture” during that time, including the Epistles of Barnabas, The Shepherd of Hermas, The Gospel of Peter. The Protoevangelium of James, The Letter of Clement, etc.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.
- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

These are the irrefutable historical FACTS.
Thanks for the guffaws.

The Christian Church (not the Catholic church) was prophesied in OT Scripture and fulfilled in NT Scripture, many centuries before the emergence of catholicism.

The Scripture came first, then the Church.

Nothing whatever to do with your synods, councils, letters, or any other of your bureaucratic contrivances.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 66
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Fulfillment:
Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Fulfillment:
1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

Prophecy:
Joel 2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Fulfillment:
Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Prophecy:
Amos 9
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Fulfillment:
Acts 15
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
 
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PinSeeker

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Just an aside, here, not directed at anyone in particular... Everyone here (I think) at least professes to be Christian, and as such, I would merely exhort us all not to... snipe :)... at each other. :)

Grace and peace to you all.
 

WPM

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Just an aside, here, not directed at anyone in particular... Everyone here (I think) at least professes to be Christian, and as such, I would merely exhort us all not to... snipe :)... at each other. :)

Grace and peace to you all.

How do you define a Christian biblically? You seem to have a very loose liberal definition.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well, yes, because Peter himself is doing that. As for those who did (and who do) "really did follow Christ faithfully," because salvific faith itself is the gift of God (as Paul is crystal clear in enunciating in Ephesians 2:8), then those who truly fall away from the faith ~ "go out" from the people of God because they are themselves "not of" the people of God, as, again, John puts it (John's actual wording in quotes here) ~ then yes, the group of folks you are talking about are purposely excluded by Peter in what he says in 2 Peter 2, and I am merely following suit.
When did Peter EVER fall away and become a FALSE teacher??
Well, rather than 'presupposing,' I would actually say singling out,. This is not a huge distinction, but it is what Peter is doing in this entire passage in 2 Peter 2 ~ singling out those who are with true followers for a time... and even suppose themselves to be fellow true followers, but then subsequently, again, go out from the true followers because they are not true followers, even proving themselves not to be of the true followers to the true followers themselves. So, not of them, not possessing the same God-given faith, which, as I'm sure you know, is the assurance from God the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, which is what we read in Hebrews 11: 1, that "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
Sorry – but “Epignosis” makes them born-again believers. The warning is for those with Epoignosis of Christ – NOT for those who don’t realty believe but are “hanging around” with believers.
I agree in principle, BOL, with the "not everyone in general" part... :) But again, in everything He says in His Olivet discourse, Jesus is proclaiming the Gospel open to everyone, and not just to ethnic Jews only ~ everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, is eligible to receive His Good News. Yes, not everyone will actually be His salt and light; not everyone is given to Him be the Father and thus are not His sheep and do not hear His voice (John 10), but that is not His point in the sermon on the Mount of Olives. Universal eligibility is His point... people of any tongue, tribe, and nation.


Okay, no offense, BOL, but you are misreading that. :) Paul, in Philippians 1:5-6, says he is sure ~ confident... that God has begun a good work in them and that He will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus ~ because of their partnership in the gospel with him ('him' being Paul himself). This is in no way a condition of God's promise, but merely the reason for Paul's confidence that they have the same God-given faith that he does and as such are as much in Christ as he himself... and as such as secure in Christ as he is. What he's saying here is very much parallel to what he says at the end of Romans 8, that "we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us..." and that he is "sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

How anyone, Catholic, Protestant (because many Protestants, primarily western Protestants, believe this), or otherwise Christian can somehow suppose that we who are truly born again of the Spirit are not secure in our salvation is... Well, again, not to offend anyone our in any way pronounce them unintelligence, but that is a terrible misunderstanding of what God has said. It doesn't make them somehow "less Christian" ~ those who are in Christ are in Christ ~ or to be "looked down on" in any way, but it is... well, it is a heartbreaking misunderstanding, to be quite honest.
Read the passage in CONTEXT:

Phil. 1:4-6

In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Paul is saying the because he trusts that they have a true partnership in the Gospel – Jesus will carry on the work He began in them to completion - IF THEY REMAIN true partners in the Gospel.

This is a
CONDITON
No, but it's an inevitability, if God's particular salvific grace has been bestowed on the individual, because of the Spirit's initial work of faith and subsequent ongoing work of sanctification in us. The key is God's grace itself. :) It depends on Him and His mercy and compassion, which is given to some and not to others, and not on man's willing or working, as Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, where, again, Paul writes:

"Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharoah, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
Cooperation is not an inevitability because Go does NOT coerce us. How gives us a FREE WILL.
The ONLY way it can be an inevitability is IF we endure in faith by cooperating with His grace.

I agree! But BOL, you're actually contradicting yourself in a way... you're saying He created them, which I wholeheartedly agree with (especially because that's what Paul says in Ephesians 2... :)), but really in saying that our works are a condition of God's promise, that our works are created" by ourselves and not God.

Again, though, I agree with this statement of yours here as it stands, but it is because of His ongoing work in us, which, again, is precisely what Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13. To flesh that out with explanatory interjections:

We are to "work out your (our) own salvation with fear and trembling..." ~ this is our responsibility and the outward evidence of our God-given faith and resulting love for the triune Jehovah​

"..., for it is God who works in you (us)..." ~ 'for' emphasized (also 'because'), so what follows is the impetus, the direct cause, of the preceding working out of our own salvation​

"...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." ~ the modifier of those two infinitives, 'to will' and 'to work' is 'you/us'... we do the willing and working, but again, it is because of God's work in us.​

Grace and peace to you, BreadOfLife.
No – I said that our works are created by HIM. We are simply the tools that complete those works.

We are HIS instruments – but for those works to be done requires our cooperation as the instrument. If you are working on a project that needs a power drill – and the drill doesn’t work – then your project won’t get don’t.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thanks for the guffaws.
The Christian Church (not the Catholic church) was prophesied in OT Scripture and fulfilled in NT Scripture, many centuries before the emergence of catholicism.
The Scripture came first, then the Church.

Nothing whatever to do with your synods, councils, letters, or any other of your bureaucratic contrivances.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 66
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Fulfillment:
Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Fulfillment:
1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

Prophecy:
Joel 2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Fulfillment:
Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Prophecy:
Amos 9
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Fulfillment:
Acts 15
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
WOW.
That you can open a Bible and NOT see that the New Testament Canon of Scripture came out of the Church is just mind-blowing . . .

Once again – YOU, as an anti-Catholic would NOT even have a Bible had it not been for the Catholic Church whose members wrote it, compiled it and declared the Canon fo Scripture in the 4th century.
 

covenantee

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WOW.
That you can open a Bible and NOT see that the New Testament Canon of Scripture came out of the Church is just mind-blowing . . .

Once again – YOU, as an anti-Catholic would NOT even have a Bible had it not been for the Catholic Church whose members wrote it, compiled it and declared the Canon fo Scripture in the 4th century.
If not for the Protestant Reformation, nobody would have a Bible.

Thankfully, the council of Trent was a failure.

Thank God for the Reformation.
 
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covenantee

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WOW.
That you can open a Bible and NOT see that the New Testament Canon of Scripture came out of the Church is just mind-blowing . . .

Once again – YOU, as an anti-Catholic would NOT even have a Bible had it not been for the Catholic Church whose members wrote it, compiled it and declared the Canon fo Scripture in the 4th century.
Still awaiting your defense of blasphemer Bellarmine. Remember him?

In English: “All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” [Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, S.J. (Jesuit); Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos; Tom. 2, “Controversia Prima, De Conciliorum Auctoritate), Caput. 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated] - https://www.documentacatholicaomnia...s_Robertus,_Opera_Omnia_(Vol_01_1856),_LT.pdf

In Latin: “Secundo probatur ratione, in Scripturis fundata; nam omnia nomina, quae in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat eum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuuntur Pontifici.” - http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080015572_C/1080015573_T2/1080015573_21.pdf

'Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae" also mentioned in this book - https://www.documentacatholicaomnia...Sedes,_Acta_Apostolicae_Sedis_Vol_023,_LT.pdf

The link is directly provided.

The page is given as an image here:

Roman Catholicism - All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ.jpg
 

BreadOfLife

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If you hijack the word “church” and apply it to your organization…

:hmhehm
That's a historically-bankrupt claim.

It was indeed the Catholic Church that declared the Canon Scripture in
383AD.

Do YOU have another version of history?
 
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