22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Spiritual Israelite

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Prior to the advent of Christ and Satan being bound he was free to hold in fear of bondage to death all the Gentile nations of the earth. The only nation having heard the good news of the Messiah who would come to redeem them from death was Israel. By His shed blood and resurrection Christ defeated Satan. Now the Gospel, that was only according to Covenant promise, spoken through the prophets of old, would be sent unto Gentiles. And through the Gentiles of faith being added to Jews of faith the spiritual Kingdom of God would be built.

Before Christ came, Satan had the ability to take away the Word sown in the hearts of people so they would not believe. Satan also had the ability to hold people in bondage to fear of death, but this power was broken by Christ. But that does not mean after being bound Satan was altogether prevented from holding people in fear of death, but since the victory of Christ whoever hears the message of Christ and believes through the power of the Spirit know that Christ is ALIVE, and all who believe Him shall never die. Satan continues to hold all people remaining in unbelief in bondage to fear of death, this is what he continues to do through his minions, both spiritual and humans subdued by his power.

Yes, Satan was bound so the Kingdom of God could be complete, as you have well said, by his binding, but more importantly through Christ's cross and resurrection, Satan can no longer prevent the Gospel from penetrating the hearts of whoever hears and believes through the power of the Spirit.
I agree with all of this. Satan's binding does not completely incapacitate him as Premils imagine. It is a restraint of his previous activities in Old Testament times rather than a case of rendering him completely incapacitated. So, his loosing has to do with him once again not being restrained just like was the case in Old Testament times.

I believe his loosing is what results in the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2:1-12 and that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:10-13. What are your thoughts on that?

The reason Satan is freed after the Kingdom of God is complete, or time, symbolized a thousand years has ended, is to gather together all who are under his power, both spiritual & human beings, it will of no doubt be a very climatic little season, but when Satan has assailed the Church on earth and surrounded believers, the whole world will witness the Almighty power of God as He sends down fire, and hail stones, and a great earthquake to destroy them all. Before the enemies of Christ and His Church on earth are destroyed Christ will be seen in the clouds and the saints will be caught up to immortality and incorruption to live with Christ forever on the new earth.
I partially agree, but I believe there is more to it than this. When Satan is loosed he won't only gather those who are already under his power, but he will also add more that end up being under his power. That includes the many who fall away before Christ returns as Paul alluded to in 2 Thess 2:1-3 and Jesus Himself alluded to in Matthew 24:10-12.
 
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rwb

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I don't understand your question and why you are asking it. Can you clarify what you are asking and why?

Does not John write the martyred souls he sees in heaven are alive after death because in their lifetimes the lived and reigned with Christ during this time, symbolized a thousand years? As well as these living souls, does not John also write there shall be other saints, blessed and holy who also shall reign with Christ during this same time, symbolized a thousand years?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If saints live and reign with Christ during this time (a thousand years) and Satan is not set free until this time has expired, how can Satan be loosed before every saint has lived and reigned with Christ during this time? Do you not agree that Satan will not be set free before the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Here is the elephant in the room for your belief. You keep stating this as if it is a fact, when it is not. It is your private opinion. You impose that upon the sacred text. You then build your opinion upon your opinion. That is not smart. Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end.
I've tried to address this with him, but to no avail. If the thousand years figuratively represents time itself, as he seems to be saying, then how can it end and how can a little season of time follow it?
 

WPM

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Does not John write the martyred souls he sees in heaven are alive after death because in their lifetimes the lived and reigned with Christ during this time, symbolized a thousand years? As well as these living souls, does not John also write there shall be other saints, blessed and holy who also shall reign with Christ during this same time, symbolized a thousand years?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If saints live and reign with Christ during this time (a thousand years) and Satan is not set free until this time has expired, how can Satan be loosed before every saint has lived and reigned with Christ during this time? Do you not agree that Satan will not be set free before the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete?

There is a difference between the voice of the seventh angel (which i believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing). I think you are wrongly equating them both. The word for "sound" is salpizō meaning to trumpet, that is, sound a blast (literally or figuratively): - (which are yet to) sound (a trumpet).
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Does not John write the martyred souls he sees in heaven are alive after death because in their lifetimes the lived and reigned with Christ during this time, symbolized a thousand years?
They live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes and while they are in heaven after they physically die. Do you agree?

As well as these living souls, does not John also write there shall be other saints, blessed and holy who also shall reign with Christ during this same time, symbolized a thousand years?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Yes. He's not just talking about people who reign with Him during the entire thousand years as Premils believe. During the thousand years more and more people are added who reign with Him.

If saints live and reign with Christ during this time (a thousand years) and Satan is not set free until this time has expired, how can Satan be loosed before every saint has lived and reigned with Christ during this time?
Who said that he would be loosed before that? Not me. It very clearly says that he will be loosed when the thousand years comes to an end.

Do you not agree that Satan will not be set free before the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete?
I don't know about that. You're basically saying that no one can be saved during Satan's little season. Where are you getting this idea? We know that Jesus will never stop reigning, right (Isaiah 9:6-7)? And, yet, it talks about Him reigning during the thousand years and it talks about the thousand years coming to an end, followed by Satan's little season. Does this mean He stops reigning when the thousand years ends? No, of course not. So, why would we conclude that no one can be saved once the thousand years ends when we know that Christ will not stop reigning when the thousand years ends? What ends when the thousand years ends is Satan's binding, not Christ's reign and not people reigning with Christ.
 

BreadOfLife

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It's anything but irrelevant when one of your putative "canonized" "doctors of the church" deifies someone, not as just any god, but as no less than the Lord God Himself. It is the consummate blasphemy.

Did the popes reject Bellarmine's deification of them?

Provide a name, date, and verbatim quote of just one pope publicly rejecting Bellarmine's deification of them.

Just one.

Thank God for the Reformation.
Tell you what - I'll respond to this irrelevant topic when YOU addess how the Protestant OT Canon came about - which is what we were talking about.
 

rwb

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I've tried to address this with him, but to no avail. If the thousand years figuratively represents time itself, as he seems to be saying, then how can it end and how can a little season of time follow it?

Perhaps if I paraphrase my thoughts on this passage of Scripture, who knows it may help???

There shall be no more time allotted for the saints to proclaim the Gospel unto the world during the time (days) the angel blows the seventh trumpet indicating the Kingdom of God is finished/complete. (Rev 10:6-7 according to my understanding of the verses)

It is very specifically this particular time that John writes "a thousand years", not ALL time, because there is still a little season of time for Satan after this particular time expires. How do I know this with certainty? Because it is during this specific time "a thousand years" the spiritual Kingdom of God is built as the Gospel is sent unto all the Gentile nations of the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. Once the seventh trumpet sounds the time for building the Kingdom shall be no longer, because the time for Satan to be loosed for a little season has arrived. At that time all the inhabitants of the earth will belong either to Gog and Magog, or they will be the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Before the wrath of God is poured out upon the whole world, the saints will be caught up and changed to meet the Lord in the air.
 

rwb

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There is a difference between the voice of the seventh angel (which i believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing). I think you are wrongly equating them both. The word for "sound" is salpizō meaning to trumpet, that is, sound a blast (literally or figuratively): - (which are yet to) sound (a trumpet).

How does this address the reply you appear to be responding to?
 

WPM

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How does this address the reply you appear to be responding to?
I was referring to previous points. You are ignoring multiple strong points here that challenge your opinion. It is pointless going on further until you address these.
 

WPM

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Perhaps if I paraphrase my thoughts on this passage of Scripture, who knows it may help???

There shall be no more time allotted for the saints to proclaim the Gospel unto the world during the time (days) the angel blows the seventh trumpet indicating the Kingdom of God is finished/complete. (Rev 10:6-7 according to my understanding of the verses)

It is very specifically this particular time that John writes "a thousand years", not ALL time, because there is still a little season of time for Satan after this particular time expires. How do I know this with certainty? Because it is during this specific time "a thousand years" the spiritual Kingdom of God is built as the Gospel is sent unto all the Gentile nations of the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. Once the seventh trumpet sounds the time for building the Kingdom shall be no longer, because the time for Satan to be loosed for a little season has arrived. At that time all the inhabitants of the earth will belong either to Gog and Magog, or they will be the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Before the wrath of God is poured out upon the whole world, the saints will be caught up and changed to meet the Lord in the air.

The seventh angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years. Your linkage is wrong. It does not add up.
 

rwb

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They live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes and while they are in heaven after they physically die. Do you agree?

Yes, of course I agree. If we have lived and reigned or shall live and reign with Christ in time, then we have everlasting life through Him.
During the thousand years more and more people are added who reign with Him.

Yes, that's because "a thousand years" symbolizes time (not all time) given the Chruch on earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as they take the Gospel to the Gentile nations in the power of the Spirit.

It very clearly says that he will be loosed when the thousand years comes to an end.

That is the crux of my argument! The thousand years for building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel ends, and Satan's little season begins.

I don't know about that. You're basically saying that no one can be saved during Satan's little season. Where are you getting this idea? We know that Jesus will never stop reigning, right (Isaiah 9:6-7)? And, yet, it talks about Him reigning during the thousand years and it talks about the thousand years coming to an end, followed by Satan's little season. Does this mean He stops reigning when the thousand years ends? No, of course not. So, why would we conclude that no one can be saved once the thousand years ends when we know that Christ will not stop reigning when the thousand years ends? What ends when the thousand years ends is Satan's binding, not Christ's reign and not people reigning with Christ

I don't believe there will be anyone else saved during Satan's little season. I am not dogmatic about this point, but I don't believe Satan will be released until the time for building the Kingdom of God is no more. If the Kingdom is complete as I believe Jo 10 tells us it is, then all who have been ordained to eternal life are already in the Kingdom. Jesus never stops reigning, nor His people with Him, His reign is forever. Why would the reign of Christ come to an end when His Kingdom is complete?
 

rwb

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I was referring to previous points. You are ignoring multiple strong points here that challenge your opinion. It is pointless going on further until you address these.

Maybe I'm a little slow or perhaps dense? But I've yet to read a biblical refutation of what I have said.
 

rwb

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The seventh angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years. Your linkage is wrong. It does not add up.

I know this and have said as much. But why not address what the passage does say? What is the "mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Do you deny this is connected to "there should be time no longer:"?

If the time spoken of here is time allotted by God that His Kingdom might be complete, there can be no doubt a thousand years is the time that should be no longer. Time for building the Kingdom is complete, and the time for Satan's little season and the return of Christ has come.
 

rwb

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I believe his loosing is what results in the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2:1-12 and that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:10-13. What are your thoughts on that?

That could well be? During Satan's little season the lines in the sand will be drawn. One shall either be for Christ or for Satan when Christ appears the second time.
 

rwb

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I think that translation of the verse is unfortunate because it can be misleading. It's talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but it doesn't come across that way in that translation.

Here are a couple translations of the verse that give a better indication of what it's actually saying:

Revelation 10:7 (NIV): But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 10:7 (NASB): but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He announced to His servants the prophets.

In these translations it makes it clear that it's talking about the days before the seventh angel sounds because it's talking in terms of days that are occurring as the seventh angel is getting ready to (is about to) sound his trumpet rather than days that occur after he starts sounding his trumpet.

I really don't see any differences that would affect doctrine within these versions and the KJV. They all say in the days the seventh angel sounds. Saying this begins days before the actual sounding does not change the fact that the mystery of God as He announced to His servants the prophets is finished. What is the mystery finished? If it is the building of the Kingdom of God as I believe, when saints live and reign with Christ, then to get full understanding we cannot ignore the Kingdom being built is symbolized a thousand years.
 

WPM

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Maybe I'm a little slow or perhaps dense? But I've yet to read a biblical refutation of what I have said.

Bro! Seriously? That is simply not true, and you know it.

(1) All the detail around the sounding of the 7th trumpet is final and climactic. You must ignore all that.
(2) Check out all the other end-time trumpet passages and the final blast ushers in the sudden and climactic appearing of Christ. None of them usher in Satan's little season. That is nonsensical.
(3) The operation of the 7th angel in the text is not one day, but days preceding the coming of the Lord. This sees the customary preceding natural signs in the sky and upon earth (Revelation 16:18), the judgment and downfall of Babylon (Revelation 16:19) and then the glorious return of Christ (Revelation 16:20).
(4) There is a difference between the voice of the 7th angel (which I believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing).
(5) The 7th angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years. Your linkage is wrong. It does not add up.
(6) Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end. You much change that.
(7) As Eric so ably outlined, Satan's little season at the end kicks in with the fifth trumpet. That is when the abyss/bottomless pit is opened for the final and widespread deception of man.

You have not addressed/refuted any of this. This is not how you normally function.
 
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WPM

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I really don't see any differences that would affect doctrine within these versions and the KJV. They all say in the days the seventh angel sounds. Saying this begins days before the actual sounding does not change the fact that the mystery of God as He announced to His servants the prophets is finished. What is the mystery finished? If it is the building of the Kingdom of God as I believe, when saints live and reign with Christ, then to get full understanding we cannot ignore the Kingdom being built is symbolized a thousand years.
The end is only introduced when he blasts the trumpet. That does not mean his voice is not heard before that.
 

rwb

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I'm not upset about our disagreement at all, just to be clear. I'm just confused by your particular Amil view as it relates to the timing of the thousand years in relation to Satan's little season. I have never seen anyone who interprets these things the way you do. Have you? If not, does that not concern you? We have a number of people on this forum who have beliefs that no one else has. Does God reveal things to only one person? Of course not, right? So, why does no one else agree with you on this particular thing that we're discussing?

I'm glad to hear you aren't upset, neither am I. I'm not promoting unbiblical doctrine. I'm not arguing anything that Amil Christians have not agreed is truth since the advent of Christ. The only real disagreement in this discussion that I can tell, is saying the Kingdom of God is complete in the days of the seventh angel sounding, and that since the Kingdom is complete there are no more saints to be saved during Satan's little season. I've shown using Scripture why I believe this to be truth. I am open to being taught by those holding to Amil doctrine, but so far I've not heard biblical refutation of the conclusions I've drawn.
That's where we disagree. The sounding of the seventh trumpet does not cover multiple days. Look at 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15-18. Here are the things that are said to occur once the seventh and last trumpet sounds:

* The dead in Christ are resurrected
* The bodies of all of the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are still alive are changed to be immortal
* "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah
* God's wrath has come which will result in destroying those who destroy the earth
* The time has come for judging the dead
* The time has come for rewarding God's servants

That's it. Where does Satan's little season fit in here? Nowhere that I can see. How long will each of these things take? If the amount of time it will take for our bodies to be changed (a moment in time) is any indication, then these things will all happen quickly. So, again, where does Satan's little season fit in here?

All that you've written falls within the sounding of the seventh trumpet. You are focused only on the last day of the days the last trumpet sounds. Which is fine, but you cannot claim that prior to the very last day, there shall be given to Satan a little season.
 

WPM

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I know this and have said as much. But why not address what the passage does say? What is the "mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Do you deny this is connected to "there should be time no longer:"?

If the time spoken of here is time allotted by God that His Kingdom might be complete, there can be no doubt a thousand years is the time that should be no longer. Time for building the Kingdom is complete, and the time for Satan's little season and the return of Christ has come.
Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.
  • “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
  • “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
  • The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
  • We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
  • “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
  • “time” shall be “no longer.”
It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.
 
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WPM

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Maybe I'm a little slow or perhaps dense? But I've yet to read a biblical refutation of what I have said.
The mystery of God comes to an end when Jesus returns

I’m sure you would agree that in these mortal bodies we just see a small part of the picture. All of us will have to admit, there are a lot of things that we do not know. There are things that we do not fully understand. But it seems like God shows us enough to get us through.
  • Life is full of twists and turns.
  • It is unpredictable. You never know what is coming around the next corner.
  • Life contains seasons – summer, winter, autumn and springtime.
  • Life involves pain and suffering joy and peace.
  • Life produces enemies and friends.
God never said anywhere in this Book that you will understand the reason why you have to experience everything you go through in life. He never said that it would be easy. He never said that it would make sense.

It is easy when you have come out the other side to look back and see a plan and purpose. But often we make major decisions in the midst of are difficult times that end up plaguing us for the rest of life.

Deuteronomy 29:29: The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

As long as we abide in these mortal bodies our vision of truth will be limited and our insight into the future will be veiled. We just see a very small part of the picture in this life. More than often, we cannot see further than the end of our nose.

Psalm 25:14: “The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.”

Even though we get little glimpses into the supernatural realm it is nothing compared to the reality and the fulness of its fulfilment. God simply gives us a little epiphanies along the way of His truth and of His plans for the future. But, what we see, is small compared to what is coming.

1 Corinthians 2:9 says, “as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

It is difficult for us who are stuck in these decaying mortal bodies, who are limited by our feeble minds, who live on a fallen earth and are located in time, to fully grasp the blessing, beauty and splendor of the eternal state. But God puts enough in this Book in order to show us that it will be way beyond our expectation. But we serve one who knows everything, sees everything and is everywhere. That is why we need Him, and that is why we depend upon Him.

Revelation 5:1-5: “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

This passage is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. It is showing that He alone is worthy to open the seven seals, which most good theologians agree is the revelation of the mystery of the unfolding of the blueprint of human history.

Has the mystery of God finished yet? When does it finish?

Get to the end of the seven vials, like the seven trumpets, and each of the recaps in Revelation, and (surprise, surprise) you get to the second coming and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

The seven veils relate to the unfolding of human history right up until the return of Jesus. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating second coming.

I’m sure you would agree, only God knows the future. From time to time, He will reveal impending events. But, we are totally reliant upon Him for insight into the future.

Albert Barnes experience: “it would require an ability beyond that of any created being to penetrate the future, and disclose the meaning of the symbols which were employed.”

He continues: “Nowhere does man find himself more fettered and limited in his powers than here; nowhere does he feel that there is such an intense disproportion between his desires and his attainments. In nothing do we feel that we are more absolutely in need of divine help than in our attempts to unveil the future; and were it not for revelation man might weep in despair.”

There is a passage that helped me through a period in life when death hit my family unexpectedly, I hope it will be of help to you today. Jesus said in John 13:7 “What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.”

What He was saying was: You might not understand what is happening now but there is a day coming that you will.

The limitations and shortcomings that we possess down here will one day be lifted when He comes. That is because that we will have perfect knowledge and a perfect understanding of God’s truth and God’s ways.

Ephesians 4:11-13 reinforces this, saying, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity (or oneness) of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto a perfect man [Gr. andra teleion’or a man perfect], unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

The Church will never arrive at a unity in the faith or full knowledge of Christ this side of eternity. They will never attain onto perfection either whilst they continue in this corruptible body of clay. That is exactly why Jesus came. Man could never evolve into a perfect being, even if he lived to be a thousand. One day there will be perfect oneness. This will only happen when man is eternally changed upon glorification. At this stage there will no longer be any need for preachers and exhorters. Christ will indeed be all in all. The last Gospel sermon will be over. The last appeal will be made. The day of salvation will be gone. This is indeed talking about the catching away. We can see in this reading, this five-fold-ministry terminates at the final future all-consummating coming of Christ.
 
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