The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

Produces physical life. It refers to the resurrection that will occur in the last day, I Cor 15:53. If you want the word "conversion" Ok, if it means from physical death to physical life What you need it to say is eternal life which is does not. It has no reference to believers whatsoever.

But it does not say that. It specifically refers to all men, meaning all mankind, actually including the world itself.
The way you are using the word "conversion" is what happens when a person believes. A believer seeks to be baptised and that baptism is a conversion of spiritual death to spiritual life, or what Paul calls "being in Christ. Christ did not do this on or from the Cross. He does this in present time with each individual believer.
Your view logically must follow that if ONLY those that believe did Christ die for, then we have most of humanity that did not eve need Christ because they were already godly, not sinners. Rom 5:6-8. In your view, only believers were ungodly and sinners, not the rest of humanity. That changes the meaning of Rom 5:12 as well. Sin entered ONLY believers rather than WORLD, and death only to believers, rather than all men.
Where are all these godly, non sinners who have never died?

Again those verses affirm that Christs death produce's Fruit, that fruit are His Seed Jn 12:24


Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. The word fruit means:

1. fruit
   1. the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields
   2. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

Jesus had a seed Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed
Transliteration
zeraʿ

1. offspring, descendants, posterity, children

This seed shall serve Him Ps 22:30


A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation

This is because of Christs Death, a people will serve Him, meaning be converted to Him

 

[Rightglory]

Again those verses affirm that Christs death produce's Fruit, that fruit are His Seed Jn 12:24


Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. The word fruit means:

1. fruit
   1. the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields
   2. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

Jesus had a seed Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed
Transliteration
zeraʿ

1. offspring, descendants, posterity, children

This seed shall serve Him Ps 22:30


A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation

This is because of Christs Death, a people will serve Him, meaning be converted to Him

Why did you change the whole context. Most of the chapter I Cor 15 does not even refer to believers but the work of Christ through His Incarnation which has nothing to do with believers, but Christ reconciling the world back to God. Stay on point.

 

[brightfame52]

Why did you change the whole context. Most of the chapter I Cor 15 does not even refer to believers but the work of Christ through His Incarnation which has nothing to do with believers, but Christ reconciling the world back to God. Stay on point.

Im using scripture to explain my point, a point which you deny, and that is, that conversion, salvation is the result , effect of the Death of Jesus Christ, and again you oppose that, thats not good !

 

[Rightglory]

Im using scripture to explain my point, a point which you deny, and that is, that conversion, salvation is the result , effect of the Death of Jesus Christ, and again you oppose that, thats not good !

I know you are very confused on the issue. Your theology denies the Incarnation by making it a conversion which happens at baptism, not as a result of the Incarnation.
Do you understand why God created man? Do you understand the effects of Adam's sin upon that creation?
Do you understand that the Incarnation was to restore this world back to what God wanted at the creation? Do you understand the comparison of Adam, who is called the First Adam, and Christ who is called the Second Adam?

At this point you have denied the scriptural explanations of these questions. Maybe theology is a difficult thing for you, but I have explained it to you,
So far, you have stated you believe in a limited atonement? You have never explained theologically how that is consistent with scripture and could even be possible. You also seem to imply that Christ made certain people, believers as a result of the Incarnation, yet scripture never makes this statement. As well as these certain people are saved finitely in their lives personally, another phenomenon that scripture never makes.
You cherry pick vs that you assign your personal opinion, that don't even make sense in their context, let alone being consistent with scripture. My guess is that you are trying to stuff Calvinism into scripture, as you hold to limited atonement, unconditional election, and irresistable grace and perseverance of a saint. I'm not sure if you ever implied the first. All of these categorically deny all the questions I posed to you at the top.

 

[brightfame52]

I know you are very confused on the issue. Your theology denies the Incarnation by making it a conversion which happens at baptism, not as a result of the Incarnation.
Do you understand why God created man? Do you understand the effects of Adam's sin upon that creation?
Do you understand that the Incarnation was to restore this world back to what God wanted at the creation? Do you understand the comparison of Adam, who is called the First Adam, and Christ who is called the Second Adam?

At this point you have denied the scriptural explanations of these questions. Maybe theology is a difficult thing for you, but I have explained it to you,
So far, you have stated you believe in a limited atonement? You have never explained theologically how that is consistent with scripture and could even be possible. You also seem to imply that Christ made certain people, believers as a result of the Incarnation, yet scripture never makes this statement. As well as these certain people are saved finitely in their lives personally, another phenomenon that scripture never makes.
You cherry pick vs that you assign your personal opinion, that don't even make sense in their context, let alone being consistent with scripture. My guess is that you are trying to stuff Calvinism into scripture, as you hold to limited atonement, unconditional election, and irresistable grace and perseverance of a saint. I'm not sure if you ever implied the first. All of these categorically deny all the questions I posed to you at the top.

In Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Who do you believe Christ means by the corn of wheat that fall into the ground and die ?

 

[Rightglory]

In Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Who do you believe Christ means by the corn of wheat that fall into the ground and die ?

Jesus is referring to Himself. But the fruit is life to the world. How great is that?
Your citation does not say however, that Christ converted people from the Cross. In fact the next vs 25 speaks directly against your view again. If Christ converted a person from the Cross, it would be done, finite work, but yet man gets to choose, We can either love our life and lose it, or we can hate our life in this world and will keep it for eternal life.`
John 6:33 says the same thing. The bread is from Heaven, Christ came done from Heaven and He is the bread from heaven and gives life to the world, not just believers.
Your kicking against the rocks. There is nothing is scripture that supports your idea of who Christ is and what He accomplished and for whom and why.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus is referring to Himself. But the fruit is life to the world. How great is that?
Your citation does not say however, that Christ converted people from the Cross. In fact the next vs 25 speaks directly against your view again. If Christ converted a person from the Cross, it would be done, finite work, but yet man gets to choose, We can either love our life and lose it, or we can hate our life in this world and will keep it for eternal life.`
John 6:33 says the same thing. The bread is from Heaven, Christ came done from Heaven and He is the bread from heaven and gives life to the world, not just believers.
Your kicking against the rocks. There is nothing is scripture that supports your idea of who Christ is and what He accomplished and for whom and why.

Okay good, referring to Himself. Now what does " if it die " refer to ?

 

[Rightglory]

Okay good, referring to Himself. Now what does " if it die " refer to ?

Christ, the whole text is about Christ. He will die, and the fruit of His resurrection is life to all mankind and a sacrifice for sin, for every man. How great is that? From all of mankind, He will call all to repentance and preserve a Church, the elect, to believe and have union with Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ, the whole text is about Christ. He will die, and the fruit of His resurrection is life to all mankind and a sacrifice for sin, for every man. How great is that? From all of mankind, He will call all to repentance and preserve a Church, the elect, to believe and have union with Him.

Okay and from Christs death comes fruit. What do you think the fruit is ?

 

[Rightglory]

Okay and from Christs death comes fruit. What do you think the fruit is ?

Funny, you don't read with much comprehension. I have already told you what the fruit is.

 

[brightfame52]

Funny, you don't read with much comprehension. I have already told you what the fruit is.

Fruit is the seed that serves Him, His Offspring Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. Thats conversion, obedience and worship. This is the fruit of His death.

 

[Rightglory]

Fruit is the seed that serves Him, His Offspring Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. Thats conversion, obedience and worship. This is the fruit of His death.

I don't follow your twist here. If Christ is the seed, and He dies and rises from the ground, resurrection, How do you get that Christ who is the seed, shall serve himself. The fruit was resurrection from the dead, and atonement for sin.
There is no mention of Christ raising believers in John 12:24
Ps 22:30. I think you cited a wrong text. It has nothing to do with seeds, nor fruit.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't follow your twist here. If Christ is the seed, and He dies and rises from the ground, resurrection, How do you get that Christ who is the seed, shall serve himself. The fruit was resurrection from the dead, and atonement for sin.
There is no mention of Christ raising believers in John 12:24
Ps 22:30. I think you cited a wrong text. It has nothing to do with seeds, nor fruit.

I already explained, cant help you cant follow. But fruit represents spiritual life, converts, Christs spiritual children. Again fruit is defined as

1. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

This fruit [posterity] serves Him Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

This was in view when He gave His Life/soul for them Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

In fact, Jesus no doubt is referring to this Prophecy when He made the statement in Jn 12:24

This is proof that Christs death produces spiritual converts, those who shall serve Him, worship Him

 

[Rightglory]

I already explained, cant help you cant follow. But fruit represents spiritual life, converts, Christs spiritual children. Again fruit is defined as

1. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

This fruit [posterity] serves Him Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

This was in view when He gave His Life/soul for them Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

In fact, Jesus no doubt is referring to this Prophecy when He made the statement in Jn 12:24

This is proof that Christs death produces spiritual converts, those who shall serve Him, worship Him

Christ's Cross work, the Incarnation, did NOT produce any believers, what you call converts. Converts cannot happen until man believes, is baptized, that is more accurately called regeneration, but conversion would suffice.
By Christ's death and resurrection He accomplished two things, tasted death for all men so that the same would be resurrected in the last day. He also performed a blood sacrifice for the sins of the world.
It's purpose was to correct the fall of Adam and to be able to offer union and communion with man in this life and for an eternity.
I don't think you even understand the Incarnation and why Christ took on our human nature.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's Cross work, the Incarnation, did NOT produce any believers, what you call converts. Converts cannot happen until man believes, is baptized, that is more accurately called regeneration, but conversion would suffice.
By Christ's death and resurrection He accomplished two things, tasted death for all men so that the same would be resurrected in the last day. He also performed a blood sacrifice for the sins of the world.
It's purpose was to correct the fall of Adam and to be able to offer union and communion with man in this life and for an eternity.
I don't think you even understand the Incarnation and why Christ took on our human nature.

Yes, Christs death produces believers. Its the basis on why those He died for come into a saving knowledge of God, which is Faith. Jn 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Its a Covenant Blessing because of His Covenantsl Death which He was and is the Surety/Mediator of Heb 8:6-12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The House of Israel here is the elect of God from all peoples

 

[Rightglory]

Yes, Christs death produces believers. Its the basis on why those He died for come into a saving knowledge of God, which is Faith. Jn 17:3

What contradictions you create. Right in the same paragraph. How can you say that Christ's death produces believers, earlier you called them converts, yet your conclusion says it is by faith.
John 17:3 first you must add vs 2 because that is the basis of vs 3. Now, Who was given to Christ? What does Col 1:15-20 say? My Bible says all things, all things were created through Him and for Him. vs 20 is the summary - He gave all thinks to Him that He Christ would reconcile all things to Himself. Things in heaven and on earth.
Now lets go back to Christ's prayer in John 17:3-3. It says so that He SHOULD give eternal life to as MANY AS YOU (GOD) HAS GIVEN HIM. It does not say He will, He should that is a whole different meaning. If man did not have a free will and could reject Christ, then we would have universal salvation since man could not reject Him, and since all men were given to Him.
However we also know that ONLY those that see and believe will gain eternal life He is praying to God that eternal life only comes by knowing God through believing/faith. A believer is not created, made a believer, converted by Christ on the Cross.
It provides for God to have a union with man, but does not force that union. It would be contrary to God's will in creating man to love Him freely. It would also negate the need for a judgement. Yet scriptures tell us that both the just and unjust will be judged for their deeds.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Its a Covenant Blessing because of His Covenantsl Death which He was and is the Surety/Mediator of Heb 8:6-12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The House of Israel here is the elect of God from all peoples

None of the above even speaks of Christ making believers. There was a whole nation of Israel that constantly rebelled against God. Only a few remained faithful. Such it is today. Christ established a Church in which believers can dwell, but many leave this Church.
As long as you remain in that Church, you are called elect. But you can leave. Your theology is not consistent with scripture, NO place does it ever say Christ created believers by His death. But it does clearly say that Christ's redemptive work was to enable God to call all men to repentance and those that believe/ have faith in God. That happens in the now, it is about God's relationship with man in time, in the present time of each individual, not as a result of Christ converting anyone from the Cross, or by His resurrection.

 

[brightfame52]

What contradictions you create. Right in the same paragraph. How can you say that Christ's death produces believers, earlier you called them converts, yet your conclusion says it is by faith.
John 17:3 first you must add vs 2 because that is the basis of vs 3. Now, Who was given to Christ? What does Col 1:15-20 say? My Bible says all things, all things were created through Him and for Him. vs 20 is the summary - He gave all thinks to Him that He Christ would reconcile all things to Himself. Things in heaven and on earth.
Now lets go back to Christ's prayer in John 17:3-3. It says so that He SHOULD give eternal life to as MANY AS YOU (GOD) HAS GIVEN HIM. It does not say He will, He should that is a whole different meaning. If man did not have a free will and could reject Christ, then we would have universal salvation since man could not reject Him, and since all men were given to Him.
However we also know that ONLY those that see and believe will gain eternal life He is praying to God that eternal life only comes by knowing God through believing/faith. A believer is not created, made a believer, converted by Christ on the Cross.
It provides for God to have a union with man, but does not force that union. It would be contrary to God's will in creating man to love Him freely. It would also negate the need for a judgement. Yet scriptures tell us that both the just and unjust will be judged for their deeds.

None of the above even speaks of Christ making believers. There was a whole nation of Israel that constantly rebelled against God. Only a few remained faithful. Such it is today. Christ established a Church in which believers can dwell, but many leave this Church.
As long as you remain in that Church, you are called elect. But you can leave. Your theology is not consistent with scripture, NO place does it ever say Christ created believers by His death. But it does clearly say that Christ's redemptive work was to enable God to call all men to repentance and those that believe/ have faith in God. That happens in the now, it is about God's relationship with man in time, in the present time of each individual, not as a result of Christ converting anyone from the Cross, or by His resurrection.

Again, Fruit converts are the result of Christs death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 12:32


32 And I, if I be lifted up[In death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ death, here draws men unto Him, to believe on Him.

 

[Rightglory]

Again, Fruit converts are the result of Christs death Jn 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 12:32


32 And I, if I be lifted up[In death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ death, here draws men unto Him, to believe on Him.

Nice, you quote a text, but then when you try to paraphrase it, you leave out the word that destroys your view.
Christ was lifted up....Will draw ALL MEN unto myself.
He drew all men and saved all men from death and sin. so that He could call all men to repentance. Those that see/believe/have faith in Him, will become believers.
There are no converts as a result of His death and resurrection. His death provides for the opportunity, given to all men, to have union with God.
You keep saying this mantra, but by any scriptural explanation of the Incarnation this is an impossiblity. So, I can only draw the conclusion you don't understand the Incarnation. Why God became man in the first place.

 

[brightfame52]

Nice, you quote a text, but then when you try to paraphrase it, you leave out the word that destroys your view.
Christ was lifted up....Will draw ALL MEN unto myself.
He drew all men and saved all men from death and sin. so that He could call all men to repentance. Those that see/believe/have faith in Him, will become believers.
There are no converts as a result of His death and resurrection. His death provides for the opportunity, given to all men, to have union with God.
You keep saying this mantra, but by any scriptural explanation of the Incarnation this is an impossiblity. So, I can only draw the conclusion you don't understand the Incarnation. Why God became man in the first place.

All the men He drew by His death are saved, converted. The all men were all the seed, Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

All the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

This seed shall serve Him, worship Him Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Thats conversion

 

[Rightglory]

All the men He drew by His death are saved, converted. The all men were all the seed, Isa 53:10. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The seed mention refers to Christ, who God will see as his seed. I don't even see believers in the picture. I see no mention of converts or any conversion. You have to twist a lot to make this verse fit your theory. Which is why it is so easily seen as a theory because none of the text you use corroborates your view. I think you assume that the word "seed" which is a metaphor, has the same meaning in every context. This context has no believers even being referenced.

All the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

once again You are confused. Seed here does not mean believers. You bypass the whole context by dwelling on the word "seed" not even knowing to whom it is representing.
First, start with vs 13. God's promise that Abraham would be heir to the world was not to Abraham through the law but through faith.
Then it says if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise of no effect.
vs 16 Paul is stating it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those of the law, but to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. Meaning, Abraham offspring are spiritual, he is the father of all who believe, Jew and Gentile vs16-17.
The word "seed" refers to Christ. When the word descendants is used in vs 18 he is speaking of the descendants of Abraham's faith.
Check Gal 3:16 for the descendant of Abraham - it is not believers
These texts do not support your view. Why do you choose them? Is it because you don't understand them or you need the word "seed" and twist the meaning out of context?

This seed shall serve Him, worship Him Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Thats conversion

There is that word again, "seed". Two translations use seed, others use the word posterity. Either fits because it refers to believers who will tell others for generations.
Isn't it the norm for believers to serve God and to spread His Gospel. Believers worship Him, supposed to anyway. Nothing here again to support your view that Christ made converts/believers from the Cross. Nothing in the whole chapter explains or mentions how one becomes a believer. They are just assumed to exist.