22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Who says all the righteous are glorified?

There are righteous on earth. There are righteous in Paradise. Only one group of righteous left in creation.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is left. That is the whole point. There is not even two groups. There is only one group.

Only one group is left. Why do you still maintain two groups? Are you insisting no one is alive on the earth?

How can they be sinless if they are not glorified and taken to heaven? Who is this imaginary group? Where did they come from?

 

[WPM]

Your opinion is meaningless. I can deal with your opinion being wrong.

According to your opinion, Adam and Eve were Satanist, and they were the only two humans on earth. Also meaningless.

Creation was a bust according to you, the same as the Day of the Lord. I will continue to see these views as personal opinions, and nothing more.

If you cannot see the same thing happened in the Garden, then what else is there to say?

Satan was allow to deceive humanity the same way and the result was still the same. People listened to Satan and died because of the deception.

How would you describe billions of human beings following Satan after 1000 years of Jesus reigning and them not being deceived? These are the most deceived and sinful bunch creatures ever to live.

 

[rwb]

How would you describe billions of human beings following Satan after 1000 years of Jesus reigning and them not being deceived? These are the most deceived and sinful bunch creatures ever to live.

Boy this is a depiction of a really weak God!

 

[Timtofly]

No Amill sees it that way.
We see the NHNE as only without sin and sinners.

So you are pre-mill when it works for your argument and Amil when it does?

Pre-mill are wrong about sinners after the Second Coming. All are physically dead.

The whole point of a future millennium is that it is without sin. Why make the claim there is sin to make a point? Claiming no sin in the NHNE does not make Amil correct. Calling the Millennium the NHNE is wrong, and because most here claim Revelation 20 is the here and now, does not make it correct. This whole sin argument is a smear campaign, and disingenuous at the best. Amil know pre-mill claim the Millennium is after sin is finished the same as the timing of the NHNE. If Amil are honest in their argument, they place sin in the NHNE at the same time as they put it in the Millennium.

Amil cannot remove sin from their millennium. It is the here and now.

 

[rwb]

So you are pre-mill when it works for your argument and Amil when it does?

Pre-mill are wrong about sinners after the Second Coming. All are physically dead.

The whole point of a future millennium is that it is without sin. Why make the claim there is sin to make a point? Claiming no sin in the NHNE does not make Amil correct. Calling the Millennium the NHNE is wrong, and because most here claim Revelation 20 is the here and now, does not make it correct. This whole sin argument is a smear campaign, and disingenuous at the best. Amil know pre-mill claim the Millennium is after sin is finished the same as the timing of the NHNE. If Amil are honest in their argument, they place sin in the NHNE at the same time as they put it in the Millennium.

Amil cannot remove sin from their millennium. It is the here and now.

Of course Amill believes there is sin during this period of TIME, symbolized a thousand years. Sin is never removed from the here and now, it will not be done away with until Christ comes again.

 

[Timtofly]

This current FALLEN earth is not what God created in Genesis.
God created an unfallen earth (Eden) from the foundation of the world, and this is what the sheep inherit. Its a fully restored earth aka the NHNE.

Neither is the NHNE what was created in Genesis 1.

That is why this creation is restored, and the Millennium is after that restoration.

The NHNE is not a restoration. It is the next creation after this creation.

I agree the sheep inherit a restored creation to before Adam's disobedience changed creation. That is 1,000 years prior to the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

How can they be sinless if they are not glorified and taken to heaven? Who is this imaginary group? Where did they come from?

Matthew 13:34-44.

Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 20:4-6.

Revelation 7:1-8.

 

[jeffweeder]

Pre-mill are wrong about sinners after the Second Coming. All are physically dead.

Correct.

The whole point of a future millennium is that it is without sin.

Then why does premill have unglorified people populating your millennium who remain outside the camp of the righteous?

Calling the Millennium the NHNE is wrong,

I agree Tim

If Amil are honest in their argument, they place sin in the NHNE at the same time as they put it in the Millennium.

Amill does not place sin on the NHNE. Sin exists in the Amill millennium because the 1000 years are about the partaking of Christs resurrection as the Gospel is preached to the whole world before the end when Jesus comes a second time to execute the sheep and goat judgment.

Amil cannot remove sin from their millennium. It is the here and now.

Correct Tim. Amill has never claimed otherwise.

 

[Timtofly]

How would you describe billions of human beings following Satan after 1000 years of Jesus reigning and them not being deceived? These are the most deceived and sinful bunch creatures ever to live.

Not any more than what is stated in Revelation 20:7-9.

You seem fairly comfortable making stuff up and adding to the Word of God.

They certainly are deceived, as they were without sin, in the whole process. If they were rebellious sinners as you claim, no need for deception at all.

Still waiting for you to point out any disobedience that causes sin to enter the world and declare these humans as being sinners.

Fire from heaven does not prove they disobeyed God. That is circular reasoning. Fire from heaven does prevent them from any disobedience, because they can no longer carry out any physical acts of disobedience.

 

[Timtofly]

Boy this is a depiction of a really weak God!

Are you accusing John of depicting a weak God? Should John complain you are misrepresenting God's written word?

 

[jeffweeder]

Neither is the NHNE what was created in Genesis 1.

A pristine earth is what God originally created in Genesis before sin and death and the curse entered.
The NHNE comes when God restores it removing sin, death etc.

Acts 3
19 So repent [change your inner self—your old way of thinking, regret past sins] and return [to God—seek His purpose for your life], so that your sins may be wiped away [blotted out, completely erased], so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord [restoring you like a cool wind on a hot day]; 20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

[Timtofly]

Then why does premill have unglorified people populating your millennium who remain outside the camp of the righteous?

This is mentioned someplace in the whole Bible?

I don't think any one's opinion is helping resolve this argument.

Do you not notice that Satan was loosed after the Millennium? The deception happened to humans having no sin, nor any rebellious intention. That is what the deception was. Satan gave them a reason to rebel. God sent His consuming fire before any act of disobedience occurred.

Eve was not a sinner because she thought the fruit was able to give her wisdom. Eve became a sinner after Adam disobeyed God. Having thoughts in one's head does not make one a sinner. It means they have been deceived.

You are born a sinner. You don't seem to understand that those in the Millennium were not sinners, nor born into sin. Sin would be as foreign to them, as this point there is no sin in the Millennium is to you. Except they were never told about sin. You have God's Word that there was a time on earth before Adam disobeyed where there was no sin at all. At the Second Coming sin is once more removed along with all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There is no sin at all during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

A pristine earth is what God originally created in Genesis before sin and death and the curse entered.
The NHNE comes when God restores it removing sin, death etc.

Acts 3
19 So repent [change your inner self—your old way of thinking, regret past sins] and return [to God—seek His purpose for your life], so that your sins may be wiped away [blotted out, completely erased], so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord [restoring you like a cool wind on a hot day]; 20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

After Satan deceives these humans, he is cast into the LOF.

Only then does Christ hand back creation to God. That is when creation passes away.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

John writes it down as heaven and earth fled away, but the result is still the same. Jesus hands back creation, and it no longer exist. This is after the 1,000 years ,after Satan is placed in the LOF.

Humans do not stop existing. They will appear in the NHNE at the same location they were in the OHOE. Those on earth will be on earth, as they watch the New Jerusalem descend out of heaven. Those in Paradise will remain in the New Jerusalem as it descends from heaven. Those on earth and those in Paradise are not the dead. They do not take a detour with the dead to the GWT judgment event.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is mentioned someplace in the whole Bible?

I don't think any one's opinion is helping resolve this argument.

Rev 20 Tim.
Premill has those of the first resurrection reigning in glorified bodies for 1000 years. After this satan gathers millions/billions outside the glorified camp.
Can you tell me why these people were not glorified along with faithful camp of forgiven saints.

At the Second Coming sin is once more removed along with all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There is no sin at all during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

SAME question as above.
The Lord Jesus took away the sins of those who repented, and they were glorified.
Those who were not glorified and remained outside the camp CLEARLY did not have their sins forgiven and taken away.
These people cannot possibly survive for another 1000 years after the glorification of those found worthy.

If you want to know what really happens to them read 2Thess chapter 1 and 2.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of [c]everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].



9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 20 Tim.
Premill has those of the first resurrection reigning in glorified bodies for 1000 years. After this satan gathers millions/billions outside the glorified camp.
Can you tell me why these people were not glorified along with faithful camp of forgiven saints.

Scripture does not declare that glorified believers live on earth. That is the mistake of not understanding the first resurrection.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh inherit eternal life. Why do you place them in the Millennium?

Can you tell me where glorified people inherit the earth?

SAME question as above.
The Lord Jesus took away the sins of those who repented, and they were glorified.
Those who were not glorified and remained outside the camp CLEARLY did not have their sins forgiven and taken away.
These people cannot possibly survive for another 1000 years after the glorification of those found worthy.

If you want to know what really happens to them read 2Thess chapter 1 and 2.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of [c]everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Those glorified are in Paradise. Every one else is outside of Paradise. It is not the camp of the saints against the world. The camp of the saints is the first generation. Their offspring populate the earth.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is final harvest with Jesus and the angels on earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

Scripture does not declare that glorified believers live on earth.

They live on the NHNE.
It is Premill that has glorified believers living and reigning over mortals ON THIS EARTH.

Those glorified are in Paradise. Every one else is outside of Paradise. It is not the camp of the saints against the world. The camp of the saints is the first generation. Their offspring populate the earth.

Nobody is glorified yet. This occurs at the second coming when all the dead and living in Christ are raised and changed

 

[WPM]

Scripture does not declare that glorified believers live on earth. That is the mistake of not understanding the first resurrection.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh inherit eternal life. Why do you place them in the Millennium?

Can you tell me where glorified people inherit the earth?



Those glorified are in Paradise. Every one else is outside of Paradise. It is not the camp of the saints against the world. The camp of the saints is the first generation. Their offspring populate the earth.




This is final harvest with Jesus and the angels on earth.

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

 

[Timtofly]

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

And Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19 just as Revelation 21 comes after Revelation 20.

There is no Second Coming at the end of chapter 20. Chapter 19 is not even the Second Coming.

The Day of the Lord comes with your fiery end to Adam's corruptible creation, but the Day of the Lord is a thousand year period of time. Yes, the NHNE is after the Day of the Lord. You all are the ones who deny Jesus is on the earth for the Day of the Lord.

Revelation 11 and the 7th Trumpet declares all kingdoms are now given to Jesus. Of course He is on earth to rule over them. That is the whole point. 1 Corinthians 15:25.

 

[WPM]

And Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19 just as Revelation 21 comes after Revelation 20.

And? Revelation is full of recaps. This is the last of seven.

There is no Second Coming at the end of chapter 20. Chapter 19 is not even the Second Coming.

Yes it is. It is the end of he 6th recap.

The Day of the Lord comes with your fiery end to Adam's corruptible creation, but the Day of the Lord is a thousand year period of time. Yes, the NHNE is after the Day of the Lord. You all are the ones who deny Jesus is on the earth for the Day of the Lord.

Where does it teach that? Nowhere. It is a Premil invention.

Revelation 11 and the 7th Trumpet declares all kingdoms are now given to Jesus. Of course He is on earth to rule over them. That is the whole point. 1 Corinthians 15:25.

This is the end of the 3rd recap.

 

[jeffweeder]

The Day of the Lord comes with your fiery end to Adam's corruptible creation, but the Day of the Lord is a thousand year period of time.

Yes, the day of the Lord comes in fire and that is the second coming lol.
The day of the Lord comes suddenly like a thief to wipe out the wicked.


1thess 5

The Day of the Lord​

1 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night.

3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord].



You should know this perfectly well having no need for me to write it to you.

 

[Timtofly]

And? Revelation is full of recaps. This is the last of seven.



Yes it is. It is the end of he 6th recap.



Where does it teach that? Nowhere. It is a Premil invention.



This is the end of the 3rd recap.

Recap is a human invention. No such thing is found in Revelation.