22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

I don't have the names of the NIV translators or the names of the translators of other English translations, but a number of translations contain footnotes indicating the other possible meaning of the word. Which shows that the translators were not all in agreement on what the word means.

Revelation 13:18 (NIV): This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[a] That number is 666.

The footnote says "Or is humanity's number". Other translations have similar footnotes.

Here's one that translates it as "a human multitude" and has a footnote that says "Or is a multitude of a man; or is the number of a human being".

Revelation 13:18 (ISV): In this case wisdom is needed: Let the person who has understanding calculate the total of the beast, since it is a human multitude,[d] and the sum of the multitude is 600, 60, and six.

Since all the translators of our English Bible translations were Greek scholars, then this shows that some of them believed that the word should be translated as humanity or mankind instead of as a man. The fact of the matter is that humanity (mankind) is one of the definitions of the Greek word, so that means it comes down to each translator's personal beliefs to decide what the word should mean in any given verse. And Strong got this one wrong. He was not the infallible person that you make him out to be.

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 13:18NKJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [a]six hundred and sixty-six.

Revelation 13:18NASB
18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.[a]

Revelation 13:18ESV
18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.[a]

Revelation 13:18Douay-Rheims
18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six.

Revelation 13:18New Matthew Bible
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

Revelation 13:18Revised Geneva Translation
18 Here is wisdom: Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. And his number is 666.

 

[WPM]

Good grief. You act as if you haven't already said this 79 times. Okay, I'm done with you for good now. You don't listen. This is a waste of time.

Exactly. Why waste your time?

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactly. Why waste your time?

The Reformed Gang, In Denial Of Biblical Truth

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 13:18NKJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [a]six hundred and sixty-six.

Revelation 13:18NASB
18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.[a]

Revelation 13:18ESV
18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.[a]

Revelation 13:18Douay-Rheims
18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six.

Revelation 13:18New Matthew Bible
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.

Revelation 13:18Revised Geneva Translation
18 Here is wisdom: Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. And his number is 666.

 

[The Light]

Thankyou.
that cannot be right. Count the passovers he attended.
His early Judean ministry lasted around 8 months....his Galilean 2 years starting 4 mths before harvest( dec)...jn4:35-43.

35 Do you not say, ‘It is still four months until the harvest comes?’ Look, I say to you, raise your eyes and look at the fields and see, they are white for harvest. 36 Already the reaper is receiving his wages and he is gathering fruit for eternal life; so that he who plants and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this case the saying is true, ‘One [person] sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap [a crop] for which you have not worked. Others have worked and you have been privileged to reap the results of their work.”

39 Now many Samaritans from that city believed in Him and trusted Him [as Savior] because of what the woman said when she testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they asked Him to remain with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed in Him [with a deep, abiding trust] because of His word [His personal message to them]; 42 and they told the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for [now] we have heard Him for ourselves and know [with confident assurance] that this One is truly the Savior of [all] the world.”

43 After the two days He went on from there into Galilee.


closed just before the feast of dedication(dec)lk 9:51,


51 Now when the time was approaching for Him to be taken up [to heaven], He was determined to go to Jerusalem [to fulfill His purpose].
jn 7:2

7 After this, Jesus walked [from place to place] in Galilee, for He would not walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles (Booths) was approaching. 3 So His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that Your disciples [there] may also see the works that You do. 4 No one does anything in secret when he wants to be known publicly. If You [must] do these things, show Yourself openly to the world and make Yourself known!” 5 For not even His brothers believed in Him. 6 So Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come; but any time is right for you. 7 The world cannot hate you [since you are part of it], but it does hate Me because I denounce it and testify that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves. I am not going up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed behind in Galilee.

10 But [afterward], when His brothers had gone up to the feast, He went up too, not publicly [with a caravan], but quietly [because He did not want to be noticed]. 11 So the Jews kept looking for Him at the feast and asking, “Where is He?” 12 There was a lot of whispered discussion and murmuring among the crowds about Him. Some were saying, “He is a good man”; others said, “No, on the contrary, He misleads the people [giving them false ideas].” 13 Yet no one was speaking out openly and freely about Him for fear of [the leaders of] the Jews.

14 When the feast was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple [court] and began to teach.

This period at least 1 year ...(passover Jn 6. jn 5?)

You never did clarify your position. As to counting the Passovers, there was four Passovers during Christs ministry.

We can look at Luke 3 and find when John the Baptist started his preaching. It was the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar which is 29 AD.

Luke 3
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

So if we count backwards from the date of Jesus death, four Passovers, that would make the first Passover 30 AD. So since the 15th year of Tiberius is 29 AD that fits perfectly as usual.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church age is over BEFORE any seals are opened. Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here is the Church as promised kings and priests in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here. AGAIN, look. Matthew 24:29-31 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. How can you miss this?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



You are not understanding what you are reading. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:1-31 what will happen to the JEWS. The church age is over BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is determined upon the people of Daniel.





You are trying to move the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 to sometime at the end of the trumpets. This event happens at the 6th seal. THEN THE TRUMPETS BEGIN after the 6th seal with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpets are the wrath of God. When the 7th trumpet sounds the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned with the armies of heaven, which means that Armageddon has already happened BEFORE the 7th trumpet. You can stop right there. That's the end of the story. IT'S DONE. The wrath of God is over. You don't need to read anymore. You have the story.

Do you want to get a different view of the story with more details? What you see in Revelation 13 and 14 occurs in seals. You are getting another view of what happens. Here is the great tribulation that you see in Matthew 24 and you see at the 5th seal. Here it is again.

The Great Tribulation - Shown in scripture AGAIN.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest that you see in Matthew 24:29-31, That occurs at the 6th seal. Shown in scripture AGAIN

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God that you see coming on the earth at the end of the 6th seal, and comes on the earth with the opening of the 7th seal. Shown in scripture coming on the earth AGAIN.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The vials of Gods wrath are just a different view of the trumpet of wrath.

Stop rearranging the events. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is the last battle after the 42 months of AoD.

The Second Coming and rapture are the 5th and 6th Seal. The church ends at the 6th Seal, not the first Seal.

I am not changing any order. I am not holding to the theology of man. I am just pointing out the order John gave and not changing anything.

You are adding a rigid 7 year time frame, that I cannot even figure out when you think it should end, other than it has to start with the 1st Seal. It may, but the time already started and gets shorter every day. It is no longer 7 years as you put it.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

More Gentiles are being added daily during the first 4 Seals. The longer God withholds the Second Coming, the shorter the time of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. But it was never 7 years. It was 3.5 years, and now it is not even that.

Even if you deny the 3.5 years and call it 7, it does not include the 42 months of the AoD. That 42 months will never be shortened. It will either not happen at all, or be the full 42 months. The time that changes is the first 4 Seals get longer, and the Trumpets and Thunders get shorter.

The Second Coming and rapture is not before the Seals. The Second Coming and rapture "is" the 5th and 6th Seals. Not "are". It is one event, not 2.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The Church is already in heaven. Why are you dragging the whole church through the trouble of Jacob? Jesus was giving a warning to His people Israel. Jesus was not warning the church. The church was redeemed on the Cross. Israel is still looking for their redemption. Are you not paying attention to the fact Israel goes through the tribulation to meet their redeemer. The Church is already in Christ.

 

[The Light]

Stop rearranging the events.

Nothing is being rearranged whatsoever. You need to understand what you are reading.

The Second Coming and rapture are the 5th and 6th Seal.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation. There is a harvest at the 6th seal, BEFORE the wrath of God shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The church ends at the 6th Seal, not the first Seal.

The Church is already in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. Why do you think that there are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns. You do not get reward crowns until Jesus has returned. He will return in a secret rapture

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is the Church in heaven, BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Do you just forget about these things and pretend that they are not there?

I am not changing any order. I am not holding to the theology of man. I am just pointing out the order John gave and not changing anything.

You are not paying attention to what you are reading. You are putting the great tribulation inside the wrath of God. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.

1 Thessalonians 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You are adding a rigid 7 year time frame, that I cannot even figure out when you think it should end, other than it has to start with the 1st Seal. It may, but the time already started and gets shorter every day. It is no longer 7 years as you put it.

I am adding nothing. You are misunderstanding. There is only one week that will remain after the Church has been raptured. 70 weeks are determined upon the people of Daniel. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

More Gentiles are being added daily during the first 4 Seals.

The fullness of the Gentiles comes in BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

The longer God withholds the Second Coming, the shorter the time of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

This is talking about the coming of the Messiah for the harvest at the 6th seal. The trumpets and thunders are part of the wrath of God. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. The Church will not be here for the seals, let alone the wrath of God.

But it was never 7 years. It was 3.5 years, and now it is not even that.

No it's 7 years.

Even if you deny the 3.5 years and call it 7, it does not include the 42 months of the AoD. That 42 months will never be shortened. It will either not happen at all, or be the full 42 months. The time that changes is the first 4 Seals get longer, and the Trumpets and Thunders get shorter.

It's 7 years, the word is clear about that.

The Second Coming and rapture is not before the Seals. The Second Coming and rapture "is" the 5th and 6th Seals. Not "are". It is one event, not 2.

The rapture of the Church will be before the seals are opened as evidenced by the 24 elders in heaven with crowns and the kings and priests around the throne.

There will be a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal BUT HE WILL REMAIN IN THE CLOUDS and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

When Jesus comes at the end of the trumpets He will set his feet on the mount of Olives.

 

[The Light]

The Church is already in heaven. Why are you dragging the whole church through the trouble of Jacob? Jesus was giving a warning to His people Israel. Jesus was not warning the church. The church was redeemed on the Cross. Israel is still looking for their redemption. Are you not paying attention to the fact Israel goes through the tribulation to meet their redeemer. The Church is already in Christ.

How do you understand this and yet post what you did earlier??????????????????????????????????

 

[Truth7t7]

Stop rearranging the events. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is the last battle after the 42 months of AoD.

The Second Coming and rapture are the 5th and 6th Seal. The church ends at the 6th Seal, not the first Seal.

I am not changing any order. I am not holding to the theology of man. I am just pointing out the order John gave and not changing anything.

You are adding a rigid 7 year time frame, that I cannot even figure out when you think it should end, other than it has to start with the 1st Seal. It may, but the time already started and gets shorter every day. It is no longer 7 years as you put it.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

More Gentiles are being added daily during the first 4 Seals. The longer God withholds the Second Coming, the shorter the time of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. But it was never 7 years. It was 3.5 years, and now it is not even that.

Even if you deny the 3.5 years and call it 7, it does not include the 42 months of the AoD. That 42 months will never be shortened. It will either not happen at all, or be the full 42 months. The time that changes is the first 4 Seals get longer, and the Trumpets and Thunders get shorter.

The Second Coming and rapture is not before the Seals. The Second Coming and rapture "is" the 5th and 6th Seals. Not "are". It is one event, not 2.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church is already in heaven. Why are you dragging the whole church through the trouble of Jacob? Jesus was giving a warning to His people Israel. Jesus was not warning the church. The church was redeemed on the Cross. Israel is still looking for their redemption. Are you not paying attention to the fact Israel goes through the tribulation to meet their redeemer. The Church is already in Christ.

Those seen in Luke 21:17 are "Christians" being persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ "The Church"

Luke 21:17KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

Your claim the Church is in heaven prior to the second coming is "False"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Where does this say that all dead OT saints were resurrected at that time? And where does it indicate that they had incorruptible/immortal bodies? If that was all the dead OT saints it would have been a logistical nightmare. Imagine THAT many suddenly showing up in Jerusalem. How would that have even been possible? No, it's not talking there about the resurrection of all OT saints. You are mistaken.

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) "

Your argument is that Jesus left some OT redeemed behind?

 

[Truth7t7]

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) "

Your argument is that Jesus left some OT redeemed behind?

Those seen coming out of the grave when Jesus died on Calvary, they were "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus and Tabitha were, no resurrection to immortality took place as claimed

 

[Timtofly]

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential.

The same goes for the 1,000 years in Revelation 20. In fact even more so.

 

[Truth7t7]

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states.

Fact is, you don't accept what it states, scripture states "Seventy Weeks" not "Four Hundred Ninety Years"

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown.

You don't accept the literal written scripture in Daniel 9:27, it clearly states the bad guy is present on earth to the "Consummation" or "The Ultimate End" you act as if the truth presented is non-existant, as you cling to preterist reformed eschatology in fulfillment

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Timtofly]

So if we count backwards from the date of Jesus death, four Passovers, that would make the first Passover 30 AD. So since the 15th year of Tiberius is 29 AD that fits perfectly as usual.

Count backwards? Your firm date is 29AD. You cannot count backwards. Where do you get your false 3.5 years? You are using a wrong day of the week as well.

You have to count forward or point out from Scripture how many to get a time frame.

Besides, John was put in prison in 29AD. That was what happened in the 15th year of Tiberius.

 

[WPM]

The same goes for the 1,000 years in Revelation 20. In fact even more so.

Let us take the phrase “a thousand years.” There is a big difference between “a thousand years” (which Scriptures states) and "one thousand years" (as you keep stating). The number 'one' is not included in the narrative, you must insert it in. Rather it is the more general thousand.

The figure a “thousand years” is employed ten times in Scripture – twice in the Old Testament and eight times in the New Testament. Significantly, of the eight mentions in the New, six are found in the same book of the Bible – Revelation. And of even greater note, all are disproportionately found together within the same chapter – the one currently under examination – Revelation 20. The two other New Testament references are found in the book of 2 Peter 3. In all the references, they indicate a large unspecific indefinite time period.

The two Old Testament passages are found in Psalm 90 and Ecclesiastes 6. And in both references the figure ‘a thousand years’ is used in a symbolic or figurative sense to denote an indefinite time-span. The first mention is in Psalm 90:3-5, where we read, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.”

This passage is often advanced by Premillennialists as proof of a literal physical future earthly millennium. Such people confidently advance it in such a way, as if it states, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’. However, a careful reading of this inspired narrative reveals that it rather in stark contrast declares, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.” This passage therefore does not in the slightest allude to the future, never mind to some supposed impending earthly post Second Advent temporal period, but clearly to the past. This passage simply reveals profound truth about God and His infinite view of time rather than any misconceived earthly idea about a future millennium.

The thousand years are notably "as yesterday" rather than 'as tomorrow' or 'as a future period after Christ's Coming'.

A ‘thousand years’ is here used to describe God’s eternal view of time, which is in stark contrast to man’s limited understanding. This text teaches us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. This reading goes on then to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9).

No wonder the Psalmist humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (Psalm 90:12).

In Ecclesiastes 6:3,6-7 we find the second Old Testament reference to a thousand years. Here the term is simply used to represent an idea rather than outlining a specific measurable period of time. It reads, “If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he…Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.”

This text is not remotely suggesting that a person could actually live to be a thousand years multiplied by two (or 2,000 years), such is, and has always been since the fall, a naturally impossibility. Rather, the text expresses a deep spiritual truth that even if someone lives to an incomprehensible age outside of Christ and hope, this life is completely meaningless. The term a 1000 multiplied by 2 therefore represents a hypothetically number, which spiritually impresses the important reality of the brevity and futility of carnal life. No man in Scripture, or since, has ever lived to the age of 2,000 years old.

 

[WPM]

The same goes for the 1,000 years in Revelation 20. In fact even more so.

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbour the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (vv 5-9).

This familiar passage closely parallels the reading that we have just analysed in Psalm 90, indicating the same spiritual truth – that God is not limited to time. Again, notably, the contrast between the number one and a thousand is employed to simply represent an important divine truth.

Some theologians mistakenly attempt to use this passage to argue that one of God’s eternal days represents a literal thousand earthly years and that the commencement occurs at the time of Second Advent. However, they do err in their assumption, in that, this text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in anyway indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. Peter is simply reminding such people that time is absolutely nothing to the King of glory. He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state.

Christ speaks of the unprepared state of many professing believers, who are exposed for their unpreparedness in Luke 12:45-46, saying, “if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters. Peter says in response, “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Peter thus outlines two distinct yet contrasting time equations in this passage for the sole purpose of expressing a deep spiritual truth. Notwithstanding, and not surprisingly, the Premillennialist are swift to selectively advance the first aspect of this calculation as supposed evidence that one of God’s heavenly days represents a thousand literal temporal earthly years. However, whilst they unquestionably address, and happily literalise, the first part of this calculation they are understandably careful to side step the second part of the sum. Evidently, such is for the reason that it doesn’t fit their flawed hyper-literalist mode of interpretation.

Significantly, this reading in no place suggests the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years. The Premillennialist forces that into the reading. In the above passage it simply indicates “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Those who take the aforementioned verses to support a future 1,000-year millennium of peace are faced with an insurmountable inconsistency when they examine the detail of the remainder of the chapter, and try and get it to fit their paradigm. 2 Peter 3:10-13 continues, “the day of the Lord will come (or arrive) as thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall ‘go or pass away, or perish’ with a great noise, and the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be ‘burned up utterly or consumed wholly’. Seeing then that all these things shall be ‘dissolved, loosened or broke up’ … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be ‘dissolved, melted or loosed’, and the elements shall ‘melt by being set on fire’?” Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This passage is so clear, final and all-consummating that one wonders how anyone could remotely imagine that creation could survive such an all-consummating fiery event. One also wonders how the Holy Spirit could have possibly advanced more explicit language to indicate the idea of total devastation. Whatever way you look at this chapter there is absolutely no allowance made or possibility for a future post-Second Coming millennial kingdom on this earth. Peter knows of no other coming of Christ other than that which eradicate the heavens, elements and the earth in one stupendous conflagration.

Anyone who contends that this passage supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of these last verses. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

 

[Truth7t7]

This passage is so clear, final and all-consummating that one wonders how anyone could remotely imagine that creation could survive such an all-consummating fiery event. One also wonders how the Holy Spirit could have possibly advanced more explicit language to indicate the idea of total devastation. Whatever way you look at this chapter there is absolutely no allowance made or possibility for a future post-Second Coming millennial kingdom on this earth. Peter knows of no other coming of Christ other than that which eradicate the heavens, elements and the earth in one stupendous conflagration.

Anyone who contends that this passage supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of these last verses. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

You writing is eloquent, and the word consummation is used

You fail to recognize the bad guy seen in Daniel 9:27 will be present on earth making desolation up to the "Consummation" that is seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 that you reference, as you teach Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled, I really don't understand your logic?

You disregard post #6175 above like the plague that addresses this very subject why?

 

[Timtofly]

Nothing is being rearranged whatsoever. You need to understand what you are reading.



The 5th seal is the great tribulation. There is a harvest at the 6th seal, BEFORE the wrath of God shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The 5th and 6th Seal is not described in Revelation 14. Revelation 14 is the 7th Trumpet.

You are rearranging Revelation to fit your personal interpretation.

Thr 5th Seal is putting on the robes of white. That is the only event that happens. It is written here by Paul:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

The dead in Christ are the souls under the alter. They put on white robes.

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Putting on white robes, the 5th Seal.

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Seal 5 is not about the last 1992 years of tribulation. It is about the waiting to put on the white robes until the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

"Were slain", not "were just slain" or "are being slain". These are the redeemed since Abel was slain by Cain. Abel was obedient, and Cain was jealous. The same reason why some have been killed since Abel and Cain. If you call this about tribulation, then you have to include the whole 6,000 years since Abel was slain for the Word of God.

The Church is already in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. Why do you think that there are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns. You do not get reward crowns until Jesus has returned. He will return in a secret rapture

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is the Church in heaven, BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Do you just forget about these things and pretend that they are not there?

Those 24 elders have been there since the first century. I guess the first century rapture was secret, because it was never recorded by those on earth. I guarantee you and I were not involved in that rapture.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal and this is not secret:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne."

When all on earth can see the face of God sitting on the GWT, it is not secret.

You are not paying attention to what you are reading. You are putting the great tribulation inside the wrath of God. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.

1 Thessalonians 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


I am adding nothing. You are misunderstanding. There is only one week that will remain after the Church has been raptured. 70 weeks are determined upon the people of Daniel. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


The fullness of the Gentiles comes in BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.


This is talking about the coming of the Messiah for the harvest at the 6th seal. The trumpets and thunders are part of the wrath of God. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. The Church will not be here for the seals, let alone the wrath of God.

Obviously the Second Coming is before the Trumpets and Thunders. Why put those, in the final harvest itself, into the wrath of God? You are placing the final harvest of the wheat, Matthew 13, and the sheep, Matthew 25, into what you call "God's wrath". You seem to just make up what is God's wrath, when it is not. If the Trumpets and Thunders are God's wrath, what are the 7 vials in Revelation 16?

Jesus is the 70th week. Gabriel declared 69 weeks and then Messiah the Prince, Christ the King. We know as Messiah, Jesus was roughly half the 70th week. As stated after the halfway point Messiah was cut off, and Jesus ascended. This 70th week was cut off for the fulness of the Gentiles.

The Church and Gentile bride has nothing to do with the Trumpets and Thunders. Of course the church is gone at the 6th Seal, and Jesus is presented as Jacob's King on earth physically, just as He was their Messiah on earth physically. But to call that God's wrath is a stretch. It is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, of course there is pain and suffering.

The Church is already going through the Seals. The church is what makes up those souls under the alter you claim is the time of great tribulation. Being redeemed out of Adam's dead flesh is not tribulation. Being persecuted for one's faith is not tribulation, yet the last 1992 year has been one long great period of tribulation. But not the tribulation of Matthew 24:21-28. That is after the Second Coming. The tribulation of those slain is Matthew 24:4-14, the last 1992 years of the fulness of the Gentiles.

No it's 7 years.

It's 7 years, the word is clear about that.

The rapture of the Church will be before the seals are opened as evidenced by the 24 elders in heaven with crowns and the kings and priests around the throne.

There will be a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal BUT HE WILL REMAIN IN THE CLOUDS and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

When Jesus comes at the end of the trumpets He will set his feet on the mount of Olives.

If the Word is clear about 7 years, you would have posted a clear verse.

Once again you say 6th Seal, but then jump to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet sounding is to confirm the Atonement after the final harvest. It is the celebration of the declared victory. Jesus and the angels have been on the earth since the 6th Seal. The final harvest was the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. Revelation 14 is the last of Adam's flesh if there is no 42 month extension. It would go from Revelation 11 to Revelation 14. Chapters 12 and 13 is the alternate scenario if there are still souls to accept the Atonement. Those 42 months are not for Satan. Those 42 months are not even for the 2 witnesses. Those 42 months are for those who choose to be beheaded instead of taking the mark. The 42 months is allowed to give them time to make that decision.

And you are still wrong. Jesus sets his feet on the mount of Olives at the 6th Seal. He sets up His throne and the angels gather the sheep and goats for judgment to Jerusalem from out of all the nations. This is what the Trumpets are for. Then the wheat and tares are gathered during the 7 Thunders. This is the final harvest. Any one left will all be killed in Revelation 14. No one survives. This is the time of the 7th Trumpet, and Adam's 6,000 years of punishment is over. That is already declared in Revelation 10.