22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

It's a link to a book. Have you ever read it?

No. I have thee Book.

 

[covenantee]

It's a link to a book. Have you ever read it?

Does it agree with the historical true Church that Christ has fulfilled Daniel 9:24?

 

[The Light]

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Interesting. 70 years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. Then in Matthew 24 we see the future destruction of Jerusalem which we can verify in Revelation 12 when the woman is told to flee to a place of protection for a time, times and half a time.

 

[Christian Gedge]

My teachers weren't online. I guess you never read The Coming Prince? The Coming Prince: The Marvelous Prophecy of Daniel's Seventy Weeks Concerning the Antichrist https://a.co/d/3GxRkJf

Yes, The Coming Prince, by Sir Robert Anderson, published 1895. I have it and read it. Seriously flawed. For example his 360-day-year begins on Nisan 1st, BC 445. But Nehemiah does not mention the day. Also the year is wrong.

Also, Sir Robert's 'Prince' is Antichrist. I appeal to you to reject that. Our Prince is the Lord Jesus!

 

[jeffweeder]

I'm am not sure what you are expecting. Messiah is cut after 69 weeks just like it says. As for the arrival of the Messiah, He arrives a specified time after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

I was expecting you to acknowledge the fact that he arrives as recognized Messiah AFTER 69 weeks. You cannot seem to bring yourself to do this.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Once you acknowledge this your next step is to figure out how long it took for his death to occur for atonement to find the cut off point.

Heb 9
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[covenantee]

No. I have thee Book.

Here is an online version.

The Coming Prince text by Sir Robert Anderson (whatsaiththescripture.com)

It is a classic compendium of dispensational denials, delusions, fantasies and fallacies.

 

[The Light]

The last time I looked at it: 69 1/2 weeks was after 69. Hello! Think about it before you post. You have not addressed the multiple contradictions that accompany the new doctrine you are running with that was invented by the Jesuits.

Your illustration is ridiculous. Like Pretrib, it doesn't make sense.

The last time I looked the wrong decree was used to arrive at the date of the arrival of the Messiah by those you are following. Additionally, the last time I looked Luke 3 proves that it would be impossible for the Messiah to have arrived in 27 AD as your teacher declare, because the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar is 29 AD. The dates you are using are proven to be incorrect. You can deny the facts and roll on in blindness or you can do your homework and study to show thyself approved.
As for the illustration, I was working with what I was presented with.

 

[WPM]

1

Interesting. 70 years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. Then in Matthew 24 we see the future destruction of Jerusalem which we can verify in Revelation 12 when the woman is told to flee to a place of protection for a time, times and half a time.

Stop avoiding. Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[The Light]

I was expecting you to acknowledge the fact that he arrives as recognized Messiah AFTER 69 weeks. You cannot seem to bring yourself to do this.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Once you acknowledge this your next step is to figure out how long it took for his death to occur for atonement to find the cut off point.

Heb 9
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Messiah is cut after 69 weeks. I'm pretty sure that has been said as it is in the text.

The problem lies in the dates that are used to attempt to show that the 70th week is complete. I guess if you use the wrong decree to rebuild Jerusalem and disregard Luke 3 showing that John the Baptist started his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, and make a chart with fake Passover dates in 30 AD you might could fool a lot of people.
Isn't there any among that wants to know the truth? Do your homework. You are being fed a crock.

 

[WPM]

Interesting. 70 years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. Then in Matthew 24 we see the future destruction of Jerusalem which we can verify in Revelation 12 when the woman is told to flee to a place of protection for a time, times and half a time.

Daniel 9:24-26 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

This is telling us that Messiah would take the believers place and pay the penalty of sin which would result in sin offerings would come to an end 2000 years ago which would render the temple in Jerusalem obsolete.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must answer is: is there any division in time between the 7th and 8th weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7-year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

 

[jeffweeder]

Messiah is cut after 69 weeks. I'm pretty sure that has been said as it is in the text.

So is this....,
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

How long did it take before he gave his life after the 69th week.

You're not going to answer so I'll say goodbye now.

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 9:20-27
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Revelation 3:10

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, it's the make believe brain child of John N. Darby 1830's and made popular in the Scofield reference Bible of 1909

 

[The Light]

Instead of running your mouth off and continually ignoring simple questions: can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Here.
Matt 17
24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Your questions are beyond reason. First off, I already answered. But your questions sound like this.
Can you find another example in scripture where there was a coin found in the mouth of a fish that was used to pay a tribute? If not then we can't accept the written Word of God

Secondly you should spend your time doing your homework and check the dates that you are being fed as factual. They are a crock designed to hide the truth.

Thirdly, I do not avoid questions. You just won't acknowledge that they were answered. Also, I am being overrun with so many questions I can't keep up with them all. If you have a legitimate question and I miss it, I will be happy to answer. Just let me know what it is without the baloney that I am avoiding you. I wish just one of you would take the time and study to show thyself approved and check the dates you are being fed as truth. I'm done for the night.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is 100% true. It is your interpretation that is messed up. This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Mystery Babylon is described as a harlot and as "she" and "her", so I guess he must believe that Mystery Babylon is a literal woman then? If he used his flawed logic consistently, that is what he would have to believe.

Are you claiming the Greek scholar Strong below is wrong and your right?

Read Strongs Again and Again, "A Human Being" "Individual Male"

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Strongs (Of A Man) Revelation 13:18

Strong’s Definitions
ἀνήρ anḗr, an'-ayr; a primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male):—fellow, husband, man, sir.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄνθρωπος ánthrōpos, anth'-ro-pos; from G435 and ὤψ ṓps (the countenance; from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:—certain, man.

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[The Light]

So is this....,
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

How long did it take before he gave his life after the 69th week.

You're not going to answer so I'll say goodbye now.

Less than a week

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL. You are incapable of refuting his belief (which I share). That is obvious to me. I find most of your arguments to be very incoherent.

You, WPM, Jeff, and Covenantee,run around as the reformed preterist tag team, yes you guys correctly believe there is no future Millennium, but your out in left field denying a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and a future literal human man as Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin), John's (The Beast)

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[jeffweeder]

You, WPM, Jeff, and Covenantee,run around as the reformed preterist tag team, yes you guys correctly believe there is no future Millennium, but your out in left field denying a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and a future literal human man as Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin, John's (The Beast)

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

https://www.techwalla.com › articles › how-to-repair-deep-scratches-on-vinyl-records

 

[Truth7t7]

https://www.techwalla.com › articles › how-to-repair-deep-scratches-on-vinyl-records

I bet the Pharisee's thought Jesus was a broken record, they hated his presented truth

Daniel's AOD, the Great Tribulation, Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

 

[jeffweeder]

Less than a week

Thankyou.
that cannot be right. Count the passovers he attended.
His early Judean ministry lasted around 8 months....his Galilean 2 years starting 4 mths before harvest( dec)...jn4:35-43.

35 Do you not say, ‘It is still four months until the harvest comes?’ Look, I say to you, raise your eyes and look at the fields and see, they are white for harvest. 36 Already the reaper is receiving his wages and he is gathering fruit for eternal life; so that he who plants and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this case the saying is true, ‘One [person] sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap [a crop] for which you have not worked. Others have worked and you have been privileged to reap the results of their work.”

39 Now many Samaritans from that city believed in Him and trusted Him [as Savior] because of what the woman said when she testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they asked Him to remain with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed in Him [with a deep, abiding trust] because of His word [His personal message to them]; 42 and they told the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for [now] we have heard Him for ourselves and know [with confident assurance] that this One is truly the Savior of [all] the world.”

43 After the two days He went on from there into Galilee.


closed just before the feast of dedication(dec)lk 9:51,


51 Now when the time was approaching for Him to be taken up [to heaven], He was determined to go to Jerusalem [to fulfill His purpose].
jn 7:2

7 After this, Jesus walked [from place to place] in Galilee, for He would not walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. 2 Now the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles (Booths) was approaching. 3 So His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that Your disciples [there] may also see the works that You do. 4 No one does anything in secret when he wants to be known publicly. If You [must] do these things, show Yourself openly to the world and make Yourself known!” 5 For not even His brothers believed in Him. 6 So Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come; but any time is right for you. 7 The world cannot hate you [since you are part of it], but it does hate Me because I denounce it and testify that its deeds are evil. 8 Go up to the feast yourselves. I am not going up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9 Having said these things to them, He stayed behind in Galilee.

10 But [afterward], when His brothers had gone up to the feast, He went up too, not publicly [with a caravan], but quietly [because He did not want to be noticed]. 11 So the Jews kept looking for Him at the feast and asking, “Where is He?” 12 There was a lot of whispered discussion and murmuring among the crowds about Him. Some were saying, “He is a good man”; others said, “No, on the contrary, He misleads the people [giving them false ideas].” 13 Yet no one was speaking out openly and freely about Him for fear of [the leaders of] the Jews.

14 When the feast was already half over, Jesus went up into the temple [court] and began to teach.

This period at least 1 year ...(passover Jn 6. jn 5?)