22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

There won't be a future animal sacrificial system "Blessed By God" your living in a Zionist fairy tale land

Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrificial Lamb of God, abolishing animal sacrifice "Gone"!

I am not a Zionist. The Zionists are those who, like Abraham, falsely believed that cooperation with God was necessary to the fulfillment of God's promises. Misunderstanding God's intent, he had a son with Sarah's handmaiden rather than having a child from her own body. Likewise, the Zionist advocated for the return of the Jews to the land of Israel.

I am not a Zionist, believing that God needed man to help him achieve his goals. But neither am I a disbeliever, thinking that time is an obstacle to God.

 

[covenantee]

I don't gravitate toward interpretations. I do my own work.

When your work contradicts 17 centuries of historical orthodox consensus work, whose work should prevail?

 

[Truth7t7]

I could never argue that our conclusion is found in the text itself. It isn't a matter of what is written; its a matter of what the text seems to suggest. In your opinion, the account of the woman caught in adultery seems to suggest or imply that Jesus nullified the Mosaic Ordinances.

I don't it suggests that. I'm willing to be convinced though.

"Fact" the woman was guilty of "Adultery"

"Fact" the Mosaic law of Ordinance has the penalty of death by stoning for "Adultery"

"Fact" Jesus removed the law of Moses in the death penalty by stoning, and the woman walked away forgiven

Below 1 Timothy 4:4-5 abolished the Mosaic Law of clean and unclean, all creatures of God are good to eat, sanctified by the word of God and prayer

1 Timothy 4:4-5KJV
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I have no need to convince you, biblical truth has been presented, you have free will to reject or receive it, its that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[CadyandZoe]

When your work contradicts 17 centuries of historical orthodox consensus work, whose work should prevail?

Bear in mind that Israel was in exile for that length of time. Our views should change or be revised after we discover new information, yes?

 

[Truth7t7]

Bear in mind that Israel was in exile for that length of time. Our views should change or be revised after we discover new information, yes?

There is no new information, God's word hasn't changed, however evil man will try to change God's words

 

[WPM]

Where in the New Testament does it say that Jesus Christ fulfills the perpetuity of Levi? It doesn't. In fact, Paul argues that Jesus is a priest according to an entirely different order.

Jeremiah is talking about the perpetuity of the Levitical Priesthood. Paul is talking about another priesthood based on the order of
Melchizedek. Both are true. Jesus doesn't replace Levi. Why? Because while on earth, it is against the law for anyone other than a Levite to serve as a priest. During the Millennial Period, Jesus will serve as a king of Israel, sitting on the throne of Israel, and the sons of Levi will serve as priests.

Nonsense!

Hebrews 7:11-12 tells us, “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

The priesthood has been changed; and having been changed there was a change triggered in the law (“there is made of necessity a change also of the law”). Whilst the written law is still active, the whole old covenant ceremonial system was superseded by a new better covenant.

The Greek word for “changed” here is metatithemi which actually means transferred or exchanged. This shows that old temporal imperfect priesthood has been exchanged for the new perfect eternal priesthood in Christ. The deficient shadow and type has been replaced by Israel’s eternal high priest the Messiah and will never again be changed, undone or rivaled by a parallel priesthood. It is an eternal transfer of influence. Christ will not (or cannot) share this office with another, neither can He hand the baton over to others. He holds it firm and alone as of right and by way of an everlasting oath. Those that purport to steal this sacred title enter into the dangerous arena of heresy.

The problem with the Old Testament priestly administration was: it was inadequate. It involved men who by nature were prone to sin and who therefore fell short of what God required of them. Time after time, the high priest failed in God’s requirements through sin or compromise and consequently God judged the whole nation. Corruption eventually took a hold of the office and brought it into complete disrepute. This opened the door to idol worship and apostasy. What is more, with the blight of sin in man came death. This meant the office was continually passed from one to another.

 

[covenantee]

Bear in mind that Israel was in exile for that length of time. Our views should change or be revised after we discover new information, yes?

All true information whether old or new should prevail.

Did Israel's exile change the definition of truth?

 

[WPM]

First of all, do I need to remind you that the sin offerings continued all through the NT period?
Second of all, I already explained to you that the practice of Moses is compatible with both the New Covenant and the Old Covenant. The practice of Moses is found in both covenants.

I don't accept your premise that the New Testament contains a complete record of God's will.

More opinions and more avoidance. I have showed you strong Scripture that proves the sin offerings were done away through the cross-work. It is the NT that damns your doctrine. Sorry that the cross is not enough for you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"Fact" the woman was guilty of "Adultery"

"Fact" the Mosaic law of Ordinance has the penalty of death by stoning for "Adultery"

"Fact" Jesus removed the law of Moses in the death penalty by stoning, and the woman walked away forgiven

I have no need to convince you, biblical truth has been presented, you have free will to reject or receive it, its that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

Fact, the event did not take place in a courtroom.
Fact, adultery isn't a solo act.
Fact, her accusers left the scene
Fact, it says the Pharisees were duplicitous.

Question: Why did Jesus say, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Surely one could not argue that Jesus commended the abandonment of Moses, seeing that Jesus invited the men to stone her as Moses commanded. On the contrary, Jesus invited these men to stone the woman and in this way he promoted obedience to the law.

Apparently there wasn't a man among them without sin, as demonstrated by the fact that each of the men left the scene. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that had these men stoned the woman, they would be required to stone each other also.

 

[Truth7t7]

Fact, the event did not take place in a courtroom.
Fact, adultery isn't a solo act.
Fact, her accusers left the scene
Fact, it says the Pharisees were duplicitous.

Question: Why did Jesus say, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Surely one could not argue that Jesus commended the abandonment of Moses, seeing that Jesus invited the men to stone her as Moses commanded. On the contrary, Jesus invited these men to stone the woman and in this way he promoted obedience to the law.

Apparently there wasn't a man among them without sin, as demonstrated by the fact that each of the men left the scene. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that had these men stoned the woman, they would be required to stone each other also.

Below 1 Timothy 4:4-5 abolished the Mosaic Law of clean and unclean, all creatures of God are good to eat, sanctified by the word of God and prayer

Will you continue your claims that the Mosaic Laws in Ordinances are relevant today

1 Timothy 4:4-5KJV
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[WPM]

But what you say is written isn't actually written. Consider the difference between what a text says (means) and the significance of what was written. You are relating to me your view of what makes the text significant. In your view, the significance of the text is that Jesus abandoned the law of Moses, but the text doesn't actually say, "Jesus abandoned the law of Moses." All it says is, "he who is without sin, may cast the first stone; where are your accusers?; and Go and sin no more." Right. What you relate to me is your conclusion, which may or may not be true. Even if I agreed with you, I could never argue that our conclusion is found in the text itself. It isn't a matter of what is written; its a matter of what the text seems to suggest. In your opinion, the account of the woman caught in adultery seems to suggest or imply that Jesus nullified the Mosaic Ordinances.

I don't it suggests that. I'm willing to be convinced though.

You do not seem to grasp the difference between the moral code and the ceremonial sacrificial system. That is where you are getting confused. The moral code stands to expose sin and point sinners to Christ. The ceremonial sacrificial system has been abolished. It has passed its sell-by date.

 

[WPM]

The question of Amillennialism, the one on the table at the moment, is whether a big whoosh at the end of history is enough for God. Not according to the Bible. According to the Bible, God intends to restore the kingdom to Israel, governed by Jesus Christ and the law of Moses, with a full compliment of Levitical priests, living in the land of promise, free from her enemies.

The core issue is because you reject so much Old and New Testament climactic Scripture, and because you misinterpret so much Old and New Testament Scripture, it forces you to misapply so much fulfilled Scripture to the future that clearly and contextually relates to an abolished religious system. But you repudiate the interpreting of Scripture with Scripture. This is why you promote so much error. The basis of your approach is:

Interpreting scripture with scripture is a faulty, unreliable, hermeneutic, leading to all sorts of erroneous doctrines. I would never recommend such a worthless pursuit.

Is Revelation 20 the entire Bible? No.

I will take this as an admission that there is nowhere in the passage that supports your erroneous claims.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nonsense!

Hebrews 7:11-12 tells us, “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

The priesthood has been changed; and having been changed there was a change triggered in the law (“there is made of necessity a change also of the law”). Whilst the written law is still active, the whole old covenant ceremonial system was superseded by a new better covenant.

That's what I said. I agree with that. But you have yet to account for two concepts that are both true at the same time. Jesus is a priest according to the order of Melchizedek, and God swore to have a Levite serving as a priest. The one does not negate the other.

The problem with the Old Testament priestly administration was: it was inadequate. It involved men who by nature were prone to sin and who therefore fell short of what God required of them. Time after time, the high priest failed in God’s requirements through sin or compromise and consequently God judged the whole nation. Corruption eventually took a hold of the office and brought it into complete disrepute. This opened the door to idol worship and apostasy. What is more, with the blight of sin in man came death. This meant the office was continually passed from one to another.

Nonetheless, God has always worked through men who sin. But you don't seem to understand Paul's point in Hebrews chapter 7. The reason why the high priest was "inadequate" was not his sinfulness; he was imperfect because of his finitude. The contrast is between a priest who dies and a priest who lives forever.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All true information whether old or new should prevail.

Did Israel's exile change the definition of truth?

No, Israel's exile caused Christian theologians to search for an eschatology that accounted for the absence of Israel. Now that Israel is no longer absent, their eschatology is no longer valid.

 

[CadyandZoe]

More opinions and more avoidance. I have showed you strong Scripture that proves the sin offerings were done away through the cross-work. It is the NT that damns your doctrine. Sorry that the cross is not enough for you.

You have communicated what you suspect is the significance of particular passages. But the passages you quoted don't support your conclusions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good point. I don't believe mortals born or living during the Millennial Period are actually "inheriting" that Kingdom either. Those who are glorified and who reign in that Kingdom have inherited it--that's the resurrected and glorified Church.

Those people who live during the Millennium do benefit from the peace of that Kingdom and from the opportunities it presents. But "inheriting" it is a matter of being glorified and made able to own it forever.

I consider that a legitimate non-snarky question. Thank you.

Is the "kingdom of God" that Paul referenced in 1 Cor 15:50 a different kingdom than the one you call the Millennial kingdom? If so, where does scripture teach that two different kingdoms will be inherited by different people when Christ returns?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Below 1 Timothy 4:4-5 abolished the Mosaic Law of clean and unclean, all creatures of God are good to eat, sanctified by the word of God and prayer

Will you continue your claims that the Mosaic Laws in Ordinances are relevant today

1 Timothy 4:4-5KJV
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Well, we seemed to have changed the question a bit here. The Locus of our discussion so far was the question of whether or not the ordinances of Moses are still in effect. All I can say at this point is that the Jewish people think so. And so they practice Moses to the best of their ability. But as to the question of relevance, well, we can certainly agree that the ordinances of Moses have never had much if any relevance to us Gentiles.

So what does Paul have in mind as he writes his epistle to Timothy? Paul is concerned with pressures Timothy has experienced coming from judgmental leaders of Judaism who make a big deal about what they eat. In his epistle to the Romans, Paul's concern is centered on judgmentalism, and with regard to eating he says, "each person should be convinced in his [or her] own mind." What is important is whether or not an individual is serving the Lord and whether or not he [or she] gives thanks to God. By all means, we must not give in to temptation to judge our brother or hold him in contempt. But, at the same time, we allow Jewish people who fear and love the Lord to practice the religion handed down to them by God through Moses.

Paul never gives Timothy the basis for his advice. He surely doesn't say, "you can eat anything you want because God has rescinded or abolished Moses." Rather, Paul is dealing with the ordinances that man added to the law of Moses, what Paul calls "fables." Jewish leaders have added new ordinances to the Law, which sometimes contradict the inspired word of God. Neither Timothy nor anyone else need pay attention to man's addition to the word of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is no new information, God's word hasn't changed, however evil man will try to change God's words

I agree. God's word hasn't changed, but man's interpretation of God's word needs to be revised if it is erroneous. The emergence of the nation of Israel is certainly a watershed moment that deserves our consideration. We can't just ignore the obvious. Right?

 

[WPM]

That's what I said. I agree with that. But you have yet to account for two concepts that are both true at the same time. Jesus is a priest according to the order of Melchizedek, and God swore to have a Levite serving as a priest. The one does not negate the other.

Nonetheless, God has always worked through men who sin. But you don't seem to understand Paul's point in Hebrews chapter 7. The reason why the high priest was "inadequate" was not his sinfulness; he was imperfect because of his finitude. The contrast is between a priest who dies and a priest who lives forever.

Not true! You don't get it do you? You are so married to ethnic Israel and the old covenant ceremonial system that you cannot enter into the new covenant reality and accept Christ and His eternal covenant as enough for you.

Your so-called future millennial period is a debacle. You wrongly portray a millennium of unparalleled peace and submission to Jesus where the lion and the lamb finally rest together in unity and love and where the glorified saints enjoy final bliss and then bam the slaughter trucks pull up to take these same sheep to Jerusalem for slaughter. How cruel and pointless! Then after a thousand literal years of supposed perfect peace and harmony where Jesus rules with a rod of iron, the millennial inheritors turn en-masse to Satan in their billions as the sand of the sea. It is this false picture and misplacement of Revelation 20 that Premil portrays that doesn't add up.

Hebrews 7:26-28 confirms this, telling us that Christ “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

The Levitical priesthood had to be replaced because it was inadequate and temporal. The priests themselves were blighted with sin, therefore they died. The old covenant priesthood was simply a weak figure of the eternal priesthood that was to come. Hebrews 7 confirms: those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s” (v 27) and “they were not suffered to continue by reason of death” (v 23).

Christ’s “perfect” priesthood cannot be compared to the faulty old covenant priesthood with all its obvious limitations. It is final, eternal and unchanging. There is no end to the Lord’s hold on this office. When Christ ascended to the right hand of majesty on high He did so as man’s final perfect high priest. He was the substance and fulfilment of the Old Testament high priestly order who served as the temporal shadow of the coming Messiah. He met every requirement demanded of God to reconcile the sinner unto God.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).

 

[WPM]

You have communicated what you suspect is the significance of particular passages. But the passages you quoted don't support your conclusions.

The ceremonial law was simply a signpost to Christ. No more. The cross removed this imperfect system. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? After Christ comes there is no need for the typical sacrifices on the new earth? The fulfilment, the reality, the substance, will be in the midst of God's people. The shadow has been long discarded.

Hebrews 10:5-6 tells us, “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.”

There is no room in the plan of God for the return of the imperfect Old Testament sacrifices. Once Christ (the final sacrifice) came and fulfilled His destiny by dying for man’s sin the former was done away. The old has been eternally abolished. God took upon human form. The Son of God being perfect could testify: “a body hast thou prepared me.” That body was perfect and His sacrifice was the sacrifice of sacrifices – the one that ended all the old covenant sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:8-10 confirms: “Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

When Jesus died on the cross He instituted the new covenant which allowed the believer to access God directly. No longer would the bulk of God’s people be excluded from the presence of the Lord by a veil. No longer did they need an earthly priest to represent them before God. They were now free to approach Him personally by simple faith. Christ removed the partition between God and His people when He laid down His life for our sins. He became man’s final high priest.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).