22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Randy Kluth]

False "Sea" represents multitudes of people, not oceans of water as you claim

Revelation 13:1KJV
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The connection between "waters" of the sea and "peoples" is obvious. People could travel throughout the world from Israel to visit other lands and other peoples. So "seas" does represent "other peoples."

 

[quietthinker]

Oh how capable we are of twisting logic or creating our own reasons and for that matter, logic. Oh how willing we are to blame another for any reason that we find a difference. Oh how enthusiastically we close our eyes to context, flattering ourselves how right we are......yeah, .....no wonder the prayers of the saints are offered with much incense in the typical......it's needed to cover the stench of attitude and self righteousness of prayer and relationship.

 

[Timtofly]

He didn't that is my point. What he was saying to John in Rev 20 is what he was saying to John in John 5......unless he changed his mind....something God would never do of course.

John saw 1,000 years. He did not hear Jesus say there was going to be a 1,000 year period. So how is Jesus changing His mind here?

The 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth does not change John 5 any more than the last 1992 years has not changed John 5.

Have you not heard Jesus calling you out of death, into life? Did you respond, or are you still in the grave? Do you plan on forsaking Jesus and hop back into the grave?

 

[Timtofly]

The breaks simply outline key markers on the journey.

Yes the part they stopped working by decree of Artaxerxes. And later the King reversed his decision to take some time off, and allowed the work to go forward again.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it shows the divisions are not gaps but simply markers along the harmonious journey.

This is your definition of harmonious:

"the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

"Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me."

 

[Timtofly]

It is the only chapter you have, and, it does say what you say.

Well, it was written to pre-mill, not to Amil.

You do have 22 reasons Revelation 20 should not be for Amil.

 

[Timtofly]

The thing I've had a hard time grappling with is the fact the Roman Empire was obviously driven by Satan in its early pagan stages, and then became the vanguard of the emerging Christian empire. How on earth can a satanic empire be Christian and satanic at the same time?

And yet the endtime Roman Empire is portrayed as led by Antichrist, and therefore also by Satan. So there's that.

Satan started with the Greeks. How do you know Rome won't be buried under lava at the 6th Seal world changing event? Italy has 3 active volcanoes. If those mountains are moved where does that lava go? Why do you think it will be a Roman Empire? What about Africa, Australia, South America, India, China, and Indonesia along with Japan?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Satan started with the Greeks. How do you know Rome won't be buried under lava at the 6th Seal world changing event? Italy has 3 active volcanoes. If those mountains are moved where does that lava go? Why do you think it will be a Roman Empire? What about Africa, Australia, South America, India, China, and Indonesia along with Japan?

I've been stating my belief about this a little while--you may not yet know. For me, Dan 2 and 7 speaks of a 4th kingdom that will end the age. But it appears that there are early and later stages of the same kingdom. That would be the ancient Roman Empire, and a latter-day restoration of a European Empire.

When God passed His earthly, temporal Kingdom from Israel to the Gentiles, it went to the Roman Empire, which became Christian by the time of Theodosius. England and Ireland became Christian outposts of Roman Catholicism, as did the kingdom of the Franks. Later, this kingdom expanded to include the Germans, the Scandinavians, and in the Eastern Roman tradition new territories were added, including the Eastern European countries and Russia. In modern times, this Roman Christianity has now expanded into the Americas, as well.

So European Christianity is the outgrowth of Israel's original theocracy. And as Israel ultimately lost their theocracy due to their apostasy, we expect to see the same in European Christianity, and are seeing it.

Before Europe is judged, though, the pagan empire will be reestablished in place of the dominance of Christianity. This is what Christ will come back to judge and to destroy.

 

[Truth7t7]

The connection between "waters" of the sea and "peoples" is obvious. People could travel throughout the world from Israel to visit other lands and other peoples. So "seas" does represent "other peoples."

I agree, however that's not what you claimed in the post, sea represented the Mediterranean "Wrong"

Randy I give you the big A+ for submission to presented truth

"SEA" Represents multitudes of people, as scripture cleary teaches

 

[Truther]

Few Christians have any difficulty grasping the metaphorical nature of chains and imprisonment when attributed to the wicked. What is more they freely accept that they can freely move and function on planet earth. They see no desire to attribute this merely to convicts that have behind bars or to a literal penitentiary. They can see the spiritual thrust. They can see the symbolism. They easily grasp the metaphorical picture depicting the restrictive nature sin has on sinners. Scripture uses the exactly same symbolism and metaphors when speaking of Satan and his minions since the First Advent. It shows Christ as binding the strongman. The word used in the New Testament whether it is in Matthew 12:28-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27 or Revelation 20 is deo – meaning to be in chains. This ability to restrain the kingdom of darkness is also delegated to the Church of Jesus Christ through the preaching of God's Word.

The defeat of Satan and the enlightenment of the Gentiles is carefully connected to the preaching of the Word.

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

Are you saying wars have ceased and folks have beaten their swords into plowshares already?

 

[Truther]

Please read and respond to post #4281, I have clearly explained your question there

No you haven't, you are talking to others. You should give me your opinion in our exclusive conversation.

When someone asks me a question, I don't refer them to some other conversation.

 

[Truther]

It has many metaphors.

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
Do you believe Satan has 7 literal heads and 7 literal necks (Revelation 12:3)?
Do you believe Satan has 10 literal horns poking out of his 7 literal heads (Revelation 12:3)?

No metaphors.

Only signs of description of something.

You should give up driving if you think signs of description are the equivalent to metaphors.

You teach satan is NOT roaming to and fro, seeking whom he may devour?

Do you live in a newsless monastery?

 

[Truther]

That might explain why you are confused on this matter. No lie is off the truth!

Do you know the difference between a sign and a metaphor?

Which is correct?...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Or...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and METAPHORIZED it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Truther]

Your claim is out in left field

It gives a metaphorical example, God isn't a literal fortress on a hill made of stone, but it's symbolic speech of God's power and strength

Below Is God a literal bird with feathers and wings "No" he is like a female fowl caring for her young, "A Metaphor"

Psalm 91:4KJV
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

The Spirit world has no signs?

What does the feather represent?

What does the wing represent?

What does the yield sign represent when driving?

Metaphors are not signs, so you better quit driving while you are ahead.

 

[Truther]

Or just a symbol.

metaphor
mĕt′ə-fôr″, -fər
noun

1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or
2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.

Metaphor is not a good description of scripture.

We should use this BIBLE word to describe these things in our Bible....

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[WPM]

Do you know the difference between a sign and a metaphor?

Which is correct?...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Or...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and METAPHORIZED it by his angel unto his servant John:

You seem to be struggling with what a metaphor is. Let me help you:

· A word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar
· An object, activity, or idea that is used as a symbol of something else.

 

[WPM]

Are you saying wars have ceased and folks have beaten their swords into plowshares already?

Those of all nations that enter into salvation exchange the weapons of war for the tools of peace. This is what the kingdom of God is.

 

[Truther]

You seem to be struggling with what a metaphor is. Let me help you:

· A word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar
· An object, activity, or idea that is used as a symbol of something else.

...something else or UNRELATED.

Your DMV test NEVER calls signs, metaphors.

There is a difference.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Not...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and METAPHORIZED it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Truther]

Those of all nations that enter into salvation exchange the weapons of war for the tools of peace. This is what the kingdom of God is.

Are we warring over doctrinal differences or are all Christians in agreement?

You see what preterism rubbish sounds like?

 

[David Boyer]

...something else or UNRELATED.

Your DMV test NEVER calls signs, metaphors.

There is a difference.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Not...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and METAPHORIZED it by his angel unto his servant John:

You are using a different meaning of the word sign.
Rev 1:1 use of signified would be like a signed contract. Put your SIGNature on the page.

Please stop being silly and recognise that a "sign" and a "metaphor" are essentially the same thing. One thing saying it is another... ie a lie.