22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't ignore the Hebrew. I simply understand it differently that you do. Whereas you think the rod breaks people, I think the rod breaks nations, which is what it says.

That is unfortunately what it says in English translations, but you should consider that the Greek word has more meanings than just "nations" and you should consider what the original prophecy says that is being referenced in Revelation.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Can you see here how the original prophecy indicates that it is "the heathen" that He will break with His rod of iron? It's not nations that He will destroy when He returns, it's individual unbelievers. Just like Paul indicates here:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This indicates that He will be taking vengeance on individuals who don't have a relationship with God and reject the gospel of Christ. Why would you not take passages like these into account when determining what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron?

In Revelation 20:7-8, it talks about "nations" going up against "the camp of the saints" that number "as the sand of the sea". Clearly, it's not talking about a number of nations "as the sand of the sea". It's just an unfortunately poor translation of the Greek word "ethnos" there. It's obviously referring to individuals that number "as the sand of the sea", not nations. It's important to have some understanding of the original Hebrew and Greek words when studying scripture and there are plenty of Hebrew and Greek resources out there that can help us. Why not use them? What excuse do you have for not using them when they are easily accessible for free, such as blueletterbible.org?

 

[dad]

I backed up my view with scripture that plainly indicates that He has been reigning for a long time already and that His followers have been in His kingdom a long time already. You backed up your view with...nothing.

False. No connection. That is delusional. That does not say He rules earth and has nothing whatsoever to do with when He return with His saints to rule this earth with a rod of iron.

 

[Philip James]

The nations will be ruled not the 'churches'. Believers will be ruling with Him

Hello dad,

You don't think Christendom ruled the nations? Spain? France? Russia? Holy Roman Empire? Uk?

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

That truly is foolishness.

The foolishness of God is more than the wisdom of men.

Pax et Bonum

 

[dad]

Hello dad,

You don't think Christendom ruled the nations? Spain? France? Russia? Holy Roman Empire? Uk?

Pax et Bonum

No.

 

[dad]

The foolishness of God is more than the wisdom of men.

Pax et Bonum

True. The foolishness of God is not claiming that He and His saints have been ruling planet earth for 1000 years already. That's on you.

 

[The Light]

I looked and I didn't see any thing in Revelation 14, which says that they are in heaven.

Mmmmm. I'll highlight for you.... Again. There. Now I'll explain it. "And they sang a new song before the throne." That is in heaven. "and no man could learn the song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." That means it's the 144,000 singing the song in heaven as no other man could learn the song.

Cut and dried. And yet............................................................................................................................................................

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

Isaiah 4:1-3

For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, “We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!”

In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.​

In that day:
What day? Isaiah is speaking about a generation in our future when women will outnumber men by 7 to 1. During that generation, judgment will come upon Israel and only those who come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord will be saved. Isaiah calls these folks "survivors" because they survived the locust armies and the fires. Those left in Zion will be called holy, everyone recorded for life in Jerusalem.

It's difficult to do this in two or three sentences, which is why I created a video on the subject.

Isaiah below is speaking of those that are in the (Eternal Kingdom) those that have been found written in the book of life that "was opened" the final judgement has passed

Isaiah 4:3KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

 

[Truth7t7]

Did you even read what I wrote about the consummation?

I am noticing a pattern with you: you ignore every Scripture that forbids your position and respond with a cut-and-paste that you have convinced yourself of that does not support what you are claiming. It is time to address other posters rebuttals. That is why we engage on forums like this.

I'm noticing a pattern with you, you continue to claim you have brought rebuttal, when none has been provided, because it doesn't exist

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[The Light]

I agree. It doesn't literally say that they were learning the gospel. It literally says they were learning a new song.
With regard to Revelation 7, I believe the seal represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think the 144K are Jesus believers at that point -- not yet. They don't become Jesus believers until he returns to meet them on Mount Zion.

The 144,000 are believers and are sealed.

Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What you are seeing in Revelation regarding the 144,000 is the harvesting of the first fruits from the earth, as they are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne singing.

I realize this does not make sense to you that Jesus comes to the earth and raptures the first fruits to heaven. If you understood the order of Revelation, it would make more sense.

 

[The Light]

You are adding 2+2 and getting 22. No view says the wrath of God is upon the righteouss apart from Pretribbers who equate their future 7-year-trib with the wrath of God and have countless believers functioning in this period. The wrath of God is upon the wicked now, that does not mean it is upon the righteous. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 shows that we are rescued from the wrath of God at the coming of Christ.

You are correct that most people that believe in the pre 70th week rapture think that the tribulation and the wrath of God happen in the same time frame. Of course this is incorrect. However, you believing that the wrath of God is on the upon the wicked now is total error. There is abslolutely no way that the wrath of God is on the unbelievers now. When the wrath comes, you will not want to be on earth. The tribulation period will be bad as well, as it will be the hour of testing. None of these things have happened yet as no seals have been opened.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you deny that the city of Jerusalem and its temple buildings were made desolate in 70 AD? I see no reason to think that didn't happen. Clearly, the temple buildings are no longer there. What happened to them and when? I see no reason to doubt the accounts that they were destroyed in 70 AD. Jesus said they would be destroyed, so we should be celebrating the fact that it happened just as He said it would.

If you acknowledge that Jerusalem and its temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD, then do you not think there would be any Bible prophecies about that event?

As stated "Several Times" Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation these are "Future Events Unfulfilled"

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are correct that most people that believe in the pre 70th week rapture think that the tribulation and the wrath of God happen in the same time frame. Of course this is incorrect. However, you believing that the wrath of God is on the upon the wicked now is total error. There is abslolutely no way that the wrath of God is on the unbelievers now. When the wrath comes, you will not want to be on earth. The tribulation period will be bad as well, as it will be the hour of testing. None of these things have happened yet as no seals have been opened.

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Truth7t7]

If his claim is laughable, then why did you not address it specifically? He pointed out that John said the beast "was" in Revelation 17:8. If the beast is a man, then how could he have existed before John wrote the book of Revelation? Instead of laughing, why don't you actually address this?

It's a claim (The Beast) existed "Before" John wrote the revelation, and this claim is wrong

Revelation chapter 17 is future, and yes (The Beast) will be a literal future human man as Revelation chapter 13 clearly describes

 

[covenantee]

As stated "Several Times" Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation these are "Future Events Unfulfilled"

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

All of which is standard Darby/Scofield dispensationalism.

 

[Truth7t7]

All of which is standard Darby/Scofield dispensationalism.

All of which is "Biblical Truth" before your eyes, your claim of 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD is Pinocchio's nose is growing again

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Philip James]

No.

 

[WPM]

You are correct that most people that believe in the pre 70th week rapture think that the tribulation and the wrath of God happen in the same time frame. Of course this is incorrect. However, you believing that the wrath of God is on the upon the wicked now is total error. There is abslolutely no way that the wrath of God is on the unbelievers now. When the wrath comes, you will not want to be on earth. The tribulation period will be bad as well, as it will be the hour of testing. None of these things have happened yet as no seals have been opened.

I agree that there is going to be a period of intensified tribulation before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. I also believe that there is coming the day of wrath before which all the righteous are rescued and on which all the wicked are destroyed. But, you are wrong to say: "There is absolutely no way that the wrath of God is on the unbelievers now."

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness). It is never upon the righteous. If there is a post-second coming seven-year great tribulation, as commonly described by Pretribbers, then the wrath of God is undoubtedly upon the righteous tribulation saints.

Pretribulationists get confused in that they relate the wrath of God, which will be poured out on the day of His wrath (the second coming), to a supposed end-time seven-year tribulation period. Posttribulationists, on the other hand, believe that the wrath of God is continually upon the wicked but that the Church will escape the final “day of his wrath” at the appearing of Christ at the Second coming (after the Church has been rescued).

That is not a reality that is restricted to a supposed end-time period prior to the second coming of the Lord but has been an ongoing reality from the beginning. Nahum 1:2 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.”

Colossians 3:6 says, “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Ephesians 5:5-6 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Romans 5:9-10 says, “being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 says, “For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

As Paul says in Romans 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

God will therefore recompense the deeds of the wicked on that final day when true, just and holy justice will be finally realized.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Q. How can the wrath of God be upon the righteous tribulation Jews or tribulation saints when Scripture clearly says it isn’t?

 

[WPM]

I'm noticing a pattern with you, you continue to claim you have brought rebuttal, when none has been provided, because it doesn't exist

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You avoid the issues like a Premiller. That is because you have embraced major faulty elements of Dispensationalism. It would be smart to abandon them. They mar your thesis and contradict Amil.

The consummation is future like I have repeatedly demonstrated. The Abomination and Desolation and Daniel's 70th week are long-fulfilled.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I knew it. You constantly avoid what exposes your theories. That is your pattern. I will take this as another admission you have no variable rebuttal to the facts. The text forbids your theology.

You can do whatever you want. I am not falling for this tactic though. And my objection stands. You do NOT address my posts. Period.