22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul M referred to the church at large as "Israel". Again, replacement.

Who is spiritual Israel replacing, keeping in mind that he's not saying that there is only one Israel which is the church. He (and Amils in general) is saying that there is spiritual Israel, which is the church, but then there is also the separate entity of national Israel.

 

[jeffweeder]

Who is spiritual Israel replacing, keeping in mind that he's not saying that there is only one Israel which is the church. He (and Amils in general) is saying that there is spiritual Israel, which is the church, but then there is also the separate entity of national Israel.

Yep.
Matt 8
11 I say to you that many [Gentiles] will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at the table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior], 12 while the sons and heirs of the kingdom [the descendants of Abraham who will not recognize Me as Messiah] will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place [which is farthest removed from the kingdom] there will be weeping [in sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [in distress and anger].” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it will be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was restored to health at that very hour.

 

[jeffweeder]

I don't believe what Amillennialism believes about the correlation between the NT and the OT. Amillennialism does NOT accept the OT as written. Amillennialism purposely misconstrues what the Old Testament teaches because the OT as written contradicts and throws down Amillennialism. You don't believe or affirm what the Old Testament teaches even if you refuse to admit it. Amillennialism first misinterprets the New Testament, then it superimposes that false interpretation over the Old Testament in order to "see" Amillennialism in the OT.

The disciples that Jesus personally chose clearly misunderstood the OT as written.
Jesus had to open their minds to understand it. Therefore You should allow the NT to open yours.

Lk 24
25 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to trust and believe in everything that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and [only then to] enter His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and [throughout] all the [writings of the] prophets, He explained and interpreted for them the things referring to Himself [found] in all the Scriptures.

 

[Taken]

LOL. Are you trying to convince me that the entire book of Revelation is all literal or what? Hey, if you want to believe that literal locusts have an angel as their king, I guess I can't stop you.

LOL, not trying to convince you of anything.

 

[Taken]

Annd who are his heirs?
Do you accept what Paul taught about this?
As far as "the promised land", is that really what Abraham was looking for?
With that in mind, how cna you say that "Gentiles are not Israel"? .

LOL...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL...

Typical immature response. This is all you have in response? I guess you don't care about what is written in the NT in regards to OT prophecies? I can't take you seriously and will not waste any more of my time on a child like you.

LOL, not trying to convince you of anything.

Regardless, you have convinced me that you have a low level of maturity and discernment.

 

[WPM]

You are the one who uses terms like "spiritual Israel" and "spiritual Zion" and etc. This language and vocabulary reflect your replacement theology. If you didn't teach replacement theology you wouldn't need to redefine the term Israel. You would simply say "the church", but instead you say, "spiritual Israel" equating the church with Israel.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then . . .

If you would take the time to actually read your Bible instead of running your mouth off you might actually see what I am pressing at. Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). This demonstrates that biology alone is insufficient to class one as a real Jew. Natural Jews must be followers of Jesus Christ to be legitimate and acceptable spiritual Jews in God’s eyes. It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

 

[Taken]

Typical immature response. This is all you have in response? I guess you don't care about what is written in the NT in regards to OT prophecies? I can't take you seriously and will not waste any more of my time on a child like you.

Regardless, you have convinced me that you have a low level of maturity and discernment.

LOL...
Truth is, you are rude, elementary and I’m not interest in your play school antics.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL...
Truth is, you are rude, elementary and I’m not interest in your play school antics.

If that was the case it should be easy for you to refute my claims, yet you are completely unable to do so. You are an immature child and everyone here can see that. And LOL at you calling anyone else rude and elementary. That's a good one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you would take the time to actually read your Bible instead of running your mouth off you might actually see what I am pressing at. Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). This demonstrates that biology alone is insufficient to class one as a real Jew. Natural Jews must be followers of Jesus Christ to be legitimate and acceptable spiritual Jews in God’s eyes. It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

Absolutely. And then there is this passage which shows that being a true Jew has nothing to do with anything physical, either.

Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

A true Jew or spiritual Jew is one who has been circumcised "of the heart, by the Spirit". Paul made it clear that outward, physical things like circumcision have nothing to do with it. Premils are ignorant of passages like this and the ones you shared. There is no excuse for that, though. These passages are in their Bibles, too, but they choose to either ignore them or twist them to fit their doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

False!

Revelation 20:7-8 Satan who is a spiritual being is loosed into the earthly realm, to gather the nations to the final battle

No place in Revelation 20:1-6 do you see a Kingdom or Mortal Humans on earth

Revelation 20:1-6 Angel, Heaven, Satan, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% spiritual realm, no literal earthly time, no kingdom, or mortal humans are seen "None"!

Explain why Jesus is on earth, but then you change the scenario for your own personal opinion? Satan is loosed to be on the earth. Unless you are in the pit with Satan, then you only see Jesus on earth, when Satan was bound, at the same time his two buddies, the FP and beast were tossed into the LOF. The rest of Adam's flesh was killed. You purposely reject the first resurrection which is physical on the earth. Jesus was on earth for his first physical resurrection, not in a grave in outer space.

 

[Timtofly]

That didn’t answer my question how do I have Babylon defeating Babylon? I have no idea what you are talking about.

You said:

How is Revelation 19 the battle of Armageddon when the term Armageddon isn't even mentioned?

The battle at Armageddon is only mentioned in revelation 16 when the beast destroys Babylon the great. Revelation 19 is the defeat of the beast and false prophet by Jesus. Two completely different events with two completely different outcomes.

"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

This is God gathering all of these people to battle:

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

"That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

The 6th vial is bringing all of earth together. There are not 2 different "all the kings of the earth" battles. There is only one.

The 5th vial prepares the kings of the east to arrive.

The 7th vial causes all the cities on earth to collapse. They are all emptied and all are forced to Armageddon. The empire of Satan, Babylon has been destroyed. But no battles were fought in Revelation 16. The scene of the battle is described in Revelation 19. That is the great day of God Almighty, when He sends Jesus to the Valley of Megiddo, the place of the battle known as Armageddon.

Chapters 17 and 18 describe the rise and fall of Satan's empire during that 42 months. But all mankind including Satan (the dragon), the FP, and the beast all show up at Armageddon. Their defeat is described in Revelation 19. All humanity is killed. The FP and beast cast into the LOF. Satan is bound for 1,000 years. Revelation 20 points out the end of the symbolic usage of the dragon, and tells us it is Satan. Then 1,000 years later Satan is loosed, not as a dragon, but as a deceiver like in the Garden of Eden after the end of the first Day of The Lord. The first 1,000 years of life on earth, Genesis 2.

The beast does not destroy his own empire Babylon. This is the verse:

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

It was an earthquake that brought down every city, an empire known as Great Babylon. It was Jerusalem again that was divided up into 3 parts.

The cup of wine from the wine press is either the end of 42 months, or just the end without 42 months. No 42 months, means no Babylonian empire. But the beast does not destroy his own empire. An earthquake does. Even Revelation 17:13-14 declare it is Jesus that does the honors of war:

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Still only one battle where Jesus ends all of humanity in one place, Armageddon.

That last battle is not fought several times. Only one final last battle.

 

[Timtofly]

I have heard him say this before but he still doesn't grasp the basics of what Amils believe, so I take that with a pinch of salt. Because one was born in a stable doesn't make them a horse.

Obviously you were never pre-mill either. You only endured it until you found a way to make your false opinion palatable by arranging Scripture in such a way to make a plausible but wrong conclusion.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus will return at the last trumpet

No He won't. There is still the 7 Bowls to happen before the glorious Return.

At that point we will all have immortal bodies, as Paul taught.

Paul taught what is confirmed by Revelation 20:11-15; that immortality is only conferred onto those found worthy at the GWT Judgment.

This is nonsense of the highest order. NOWHERE does scripture teach that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future only to die again after that. That is completely ludicrous. What would be the point of that? This belief you have is utter nonsense and can't be backed up by scripture.

There are about 4 examples of a Resurrection from the dead, back to mortality. Lazarus is the prime example. The GT martyrs will have mortal bodies, I think that maybe most of them will actually live for the thousand years. But ONLY at the final Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened, will they receive immortality.
Your unpleasant comments reflect upon yourself.

ALL become sons of Abraham, Father of many nations. All become sons of God.

All Christians become the children of God. Romans 9:24-26
Therefore we are the inheritors of Promises of God to Abraham and to Jacob, who is the original Israel, thru Jesus who is the ultimate Israel.

 

[Keraz]

You could be right, but I am convinced that all of Jesus' followers are "caught up together" to meet the Lord. In any case, the resurrection takes place in this age, rather than the next age.

Pauls clear prophecy of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, proves a 'caught up'. The question is: Where to?
As Jesus has come down from heaven at that time, He does not just go back to heaven with the Christians, as the pre-tribbers like to believe. He is on His way to Jerusalem, the place He will rule from for the next thousand years.
It will be a horizontal transportation as demonstrated by Philip; Acts 8:39 and in Matthew 24:31

The Resurrection of everyone takes place at the end of the Millennium. Some will receive immortality, most will be annihilated.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But, you continue to use it even though you know it offends us. That says a lot about you.

RT is just an identifier--not a libel. It is offensive to you because it sounds unbiblical. And that is what it is. Sorry you feel that way, but you escape by avoiding its teachings, and not by re-interpreting it.

 

[Taken]

All Christians become the children of God. Romans 9:24-26
Therefore we are the inheritors of Promises of God to Abraham and to Jacob, who is the original Israel, thru Jesus who is the ultimate Israel.

Gal 3:
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Taken]

If that was the case it should be easy for you to refute my claims, yet you are completely unable to do so. You are an immature child and everyone here can see that. And LOL at you calling anyone else rude and elementary. That's a good one.

LOL

 

[WPM]

RT is just an identifier--not a libel. It is offensive to you because it sounds unbiblical. And that is what it is. Sorry you feel that way, but you escape by avoiding its teachings, and not by re-interpreting it.

Amils oppose Replacement Theology. They believe in Expansion Theology. It you that is the No. 1 promoter of it on these boards: You have previously admitted:

“The NT did supersede the OT, yes.”

"Yes, what Israel had, has now been passed on to many European and other nations.”

“So, the kingdom of priests given to Israel has been given to many nations."

"Many Christian nations have now entered into the promise God made to Israel that they would be a kingdom having a priesthood."

 

[WPM]

LOL

This sums up your eschatological position.