22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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Spiritual Israelite
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Yes, I'm sure. I know we all like to think that we're being clear when we explain our views, but that isn't always the case. Part of the issue is just that your way of looking at all of this is very different than mine. So, it's hard to understand each other's views because of that.wow, yeah, it’s getting frustrating!I keep thinking I’m clarifying but whatever confusion you have is still there.
I will try again. Are you sure you didn’t miss the post where (I think anyway
I think you said before that you see His second coming as occurring at a different time than the end of the age. Is that correct?
So, have you Jesus returning at #2 and you see that as the end of the age referenced in Matthew 24:3, which is called "the end" in Matthew 24:14. Is that correct?
What I'm trying to understand is why you would see "the end of the age" in the Olivet Discourse as being different from the end of the age in Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50. Jesus taught in Luke 20:34-36 that the age to come after the end of this age is eternal, not temporal.
Here is the first prophecy in Scripture:
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Is it literal, or spiritual?
It doesn't say that it was on the world its a great tribulation which was the tribulation of the siege on Jerusalem. In all 1.2 million perished and only 97000 survived. If it went on longer all would of perrished.
I showed you twice because you ignore it the 1st time. I mentioned what I did because you rubbished the current binding of Satan and refused to address the Scriptures that teach such. You rejected the linking of the great commission even though other Scripture reinforces that.
Jesus said, in Luke 24:46-47, “thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all [Gr. ethnos] nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
Contrary to what Premils argue, Christ’s resurrection was the first. Obviously, the believer’s physical resurrection can’t be the first resurrection – Christ’s has already preceded it. The resurrection of the just is still to occur. Moreover, the resurrection is here identified with the enlightenment of the Gentiles thus removing their long held deception. This agrees with a current fulfilment of Revelation 20.
For thousands of years before the cross Israel was the sole national custodian of the Gospel. However, the earthly ministry of Christ marked the turning point for this state of affairs. In fact, the resurrection was the pivotal event that opened the way for the global un-blinding of the Gentiles. This climactic event secured salvation for the “whosoever believeth” of all tribes, colours and nationalities – none excluded. Without Christ’s victory over sin, death and the grave the Gentiles would have remained in their darkened state. The Jewish rituals would have been restricted to a physical brick building in Jerusalem city, where Gentiles where kept on the outside.
It is a fact, the Gentile nations sat in darkness for 4,000 apart from one notable exception – the city of Ninevah. The veil of darkness covered every Gentile nation. Calvary saw the boundaries of the Gospel witness enlarged to embrace a global harvest field. The kingdom of God was preached in power and authority to the heathen “and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48). Luke identifies the sufferings of Christ followed by his “rise from the dead the third day” as the catalyse for the Gentiles receiving the Gospel. Luke confirms that this occurred for the purpose “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations” including Israel. The suffix attached to the end of this statement proves this, by saying, “beginning at Jerusalem.”
Acts 26:23 declares, “That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
We should note in this passage, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ. It is only through this powerful event that the deception that smothered the Gentiles was lifted. Moreover, the binding of Satan is expressly connected to the enlightenment of the Gentiles (or) ethnos. The Amil understanding of "the first resurrection" can only be understood “in Christ.” The spiritual resurrection that a sinner realises upon conversion is only realised in "the first resurrection" of Christ. Our second physical resurrection is also procured through the victory of "the first resurrection" of Christ. A Christian is raised from the grave of his sin in this life solely on the grounds of Christ’s first resurrection.
The general broad deception that engulfed the Gentiles in ignorance and darkness is lifted. They now can receive if they believe. That does not suggest the majority will.
Revelation 20:1-5: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection that we partake in when we are born again. Because we partake in Christ's resurrection (the first), we are spared the second death that comes with the bodily resurrection at the second coming. Contrary to what Premils argue, this is absolute unequivocal corroborative proof that Christ is indeed "the first resurrection" in time and in importance.
Amil believes Christ is the first resurrection, we that have are part in His first resurrection and are delivered from eternal punishment (the second death). They believe the cross defeated the devil, opened up the Gospel to the Gentiles, allowing the deception that once veiled them to be lifted. They believe Satan has been placed in spiritual chains since Calvary, curtailing his once global control of the nations. Wherever the Church advances he is unseated or dethroned. The Gentiles have received the glorious light of the Gospel of Christ for near 2,000 yrs. The deception is now lifted.
The earthly ministry of Christ instigated the binding of Satan and opened up the Gospel to the nations (ethnos) or Gentiles. Read the New Testament. Light dispels darkness. What is hard to grasp about that? If God decides not to restrain or shine like He did before just before the end then that is His prerogative. Why do you question that?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I am speaking about the kingdom which is not here yet.
post 545 does not speak of that kingdom
16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me i]">[i]to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
This was fulfilled literally as Jesus said. but what about the rest of the prophecy..
Is 61:
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the Lord,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery c]">[c]for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the Lord has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Has these things taken place yet?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
It says not since the begining of the world.
Jerusalem was not around since the begining of the world. So it can not be jerusalem.
The prophets also tell us this great tribulation shall be worldwide. As the time of Gods wrath. or the time of Jacobs trouble
That’s a thought…it’s like saying…it will be even worse than the flood…? Doesn’t seem possible, does it…
Post 545 shows, contrary to dispensational futurist denial, that the Kingdom which its verses describe is here.
Its just saying that there hasn't been a tribulation like that since the beginning of the world.
There are many great tribulations but only one "The great tribulation" which is on the church world wide. It started on the day Stephen was killed and is still happing today
Revelation 7:9-14
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THEN I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
I will give you one more opportunity
Chapter 20 starts with the word THEN. When you see this word. It means that somthing happened before (the end of chapter 19) and THEn after those things, this happens.
shoe mw when the things in CHapter 9 has already happened.
then Show me in the words above where the term GOSPEL is used as to the means of binding satan, after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.
If you can not do it. then that is fine, we can move on
But please do not insult me by saying you have done something you have not done..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
post 545 represents the church age. not the future kingdom
Why do you refuse to look at the post and passage I offered and refuse to answer my question?
My wondering is simple. If we saw the future in detail then we could change it so therefore we cannot see but that which is unclear, suggestions to help our attitudes as we go forwards to it. Jesus says He will return, and it will be unknown to those at that time until it happens. So the message is be ready. Or another way do not think I can do what I like and at the last moment clean my act up and enter the Kingdom. In one sense this is possible like the foolish virgins waiting for the bride groom and running out of oil. Grace can be taken for granted.
I am also encouraged the Lord is wanting to encourage His people by saying there will be hard times, but we will triumph in the end. When Nero sent whole families to the lions, it puts into perspective the sacrifice and also the promise. This is emotionally hard for the survivors, why not me, why were the others were taken? And thats the point, in love whether we are taken to be with Him or to continue to serve here, Amen.
God bless you
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
@Marty fox I corrected my quoting error. please forgive me
It says more than this my friend.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
ww1 and ww2 made what happened in ad 70 look like a walk in the park. but not even during those two wars was the ability to kill all life possible.
remember, Jesus said no flesh would survive. flesh is not just people. it is any living breathing thing that has flesh
The great tribulation is to be limited in time. after the Abomination of desolation occures. the time is limited in years. Daniel mentioned 3.5 years. not 2000 years.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Thats not the purpose of prophecy.
the purpose of prophesy is there so those who DO see it. will know that the god of the boble spoke it. and because of it turn to him
We can't change Gods word my friend
Yes he did
so the AOD happens
then 3.5 years later christ returns.
everyone will know when jesus will return and ends evil on this earth
He will not come as a thief
My purpose was to affirm the Scriptural reality of the Kingdom which is here.
If you wish to opine about the Kingdom which is not here, feel free.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except now you place those "1,000 years" between the Second Coming and the GWT.
Jesus is not the fire from God. Jesus is ruling in Jerusalem, that symbolic camp of the saints. That Satanic uprising is against the iron rod rule of Jesus on His glorious throne. What other reason to rebel? Satan was sitting on that throne for 42 months. Then he was bound for a thousand years. Now, after being released, he wants that authority back. Satan has known since John wrote Revelation in the first century they will be consumed by fire. Do you think Satan reads these verses to that uprising as motivation for their uprising? Join me and you all will be consumed by fire? Do you think those people even have access to the Bible? You claim they are consumed by fire. If there is a current uprising of billions against Jerusalem this month, would that make sense as a sign the Second Coming is about to happen? Perhaps they don't have access to Revelation 20, and don't know their fate. But consumed by fire will only destroy them, not the rest of what is declared in 2 Peter 3. Where does it declare the camp of the saints is consumed by fire?
Creation itself dissolves, because Jesus hands back all of creation and it is all become God. Minus sheol and Death which is judged outside of reality at the GWT. Then they are cast into the LOF, which is also separate from created reality. Only then do we see the New reality. But those alive in heaven and earth went directly into the NHNE. They were not judged at the GWT. They were not the wicked, but the righteous, who were already judged prior to the 1,000 years. They were all declared righteous at the Second Coming. The glorified church were in Paradise. The righteous declared so after the Second Coming, the sheep and wheat, lived on earth with Christ for those 1,000 years. Righteous people on earth had offspring.
Their offspring each made the personal decision not to rebel. Birth does not remove one's free will ability to reject God. No humans ever born were forced to be wicked without a few points of decision making of their own free will, not even Pharaoh, whose heart and will were hardened by God. God allows sociopaths, but even they are allowed a choice. Perhaps not in this life, but at the GWT. Only God knows a person's thoughts and mind.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
the discussion we are having is about the future kingdom.
That is why I am discussing it.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You made a remark to me and said my question was answered in that post
I was not discussing the present kingdom.
I pray now you see why I said your post did not answer the comment I made.
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