22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Ronald David Bruno]

The salvation of the Gentiles hasn't happened yet? I can't imagine that's what you're saying, so I just have no idea what you're saying. Again, Paul related Isaiah 11:10 to the salvation of the Gentiles. Should we not accept that understanding of Isaiah 11 as Paul taught it?

You see what you want to see and ignore the rest don't you? Take a look at Verses 6-9 >> Harmony throughout the animal kingdom, the entire earth is filled with the knowledge of the LORD. In other words, there is no other knowledge, no other religion, Christianity only, ruled by Christ.
Im done.

 

[Timtofly]

The plain reading? LOL. So, do you disagree with Paul that scripture must be spiritually discerned, as he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? It's just all "plain reading"? In the highly symbolic book of Revelation? No.

Do you agree with the plain reading of this passage:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus plainly said that there is a singular time coming when all of the dead will be raised. So, there will be one time or one event when all of the dead are raised and not two times when the dead are raised, as you believe. Why do you not believe in the plain reading of this passage?

How do you know it is singular and not symbolically indefinite like a thousand years? Are you consistent in your "single" application? A "thousand" years is also coming. A thousand is singular.

There was a physical bodily resurrection of many at the Cross per Matthew 27. What if that was the only singular hour in that verse? After the Cross, we need a new resurrection, as that single hour was fulfilled. Obviously the OT economy ended at the Cross and the temple veil rent from top to bottom by God. That was the end of all bodily physical resurrections per that one verse. It is the one and only physical resurrection ending the OT economy.

Revelation 20:4 is a stop gap resurrection. It is only necessary if any human was beheaded in the previous 42 months. Until that happens no one can use Revelation 20:4 for any other resurrection mentioned in Scripture. It is not to a glorified body. It is not the Resurrection of the Cross mentioned in Matthew 27. It is certainly not Jesus' resurrection. Jesus was not beheaded. It is not a spiritual resurrection, they were beheaded. Unless you have Scripture that beheading is a symbolic term for a spiritual sacrificial death that needs a spiritual resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

Because they are in heaven now. Hello!

You are not addressing the contradiction. You are avoiding it.

Who are these so-called mortals that overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea? Who are they? You agreed all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes. So, who are they? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God when Jesus comes and what hinders them from being glorified when Jesus comes?

People are born. People are born in your version of the Millennium. Life goes on does it not?

 

[Timtofly]

So, the answer to the question of who the mortals would be in a future millennium, in your view, would be "those who survived the tribulation", right?

If so, I think we probably should address your pre-trib belief at this point instead of going any further discussing your premill belief.

You mean go off topic to avoid the pre-mill issue? The plot thickens.

 

[covenantee]

No, Christ did *not* bring his Kingdom. He was the King of the Kingdom, and dwelled in the midst of Israel for a time. But he declared the Kingdom "near"--not *here!*

Everything we read about the Kingdom indicates it is still future.

How are we translated into a Kingdom which is not here?
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

How do we seek a Kingdom which is not here?
Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

How did a Kingdom which is not here come unto them?
Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

How could a Kingdom which is not here be like all of the objects in Jesus' parables, which are here?
Matthew 13:24-47


"Near"--not *here!* is another risible dispensational fabrication.

It is abject nonsense.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How are we translated into a Kingdom which is not here?

Oh that's easy, brother. We are translated into *membership* of the Kingdom--we are not there yet!

How did a Kingdom which is not here come unto them?
Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

As I said, Jesus was and is the King of the Kingdom. When he arrived in Israel during his earthly ministry, it could be said that the Kingdom spiritually dwelt within Israel and especially with Jesus' followers. It did not mean the Kingdom had actually come!

It was just a temporal form of the Kingdom that had been in the midst of Israel, just as the temple had temporarily been in the midst of Israel. The actual eschatological Kingdom remains future. Jesus said his disciples should pray, "Thy Kingdom Come." You don't pray for something that's already here!

"Near"--not *here!* is another risible dispensational fabrication.
It is abject nonsense.

It is not nonsense, nor it is necessarily Dispensationalism. It is precisely what Jesus said. And I'm not a Dispensationalist. If you think the Kingdom is already here, I wonder what you're hoping for in the future?

 

[covenantee]

Oh that's easy, brother. We are translated into *membership* of the Kingdom--we are not there yet!

I can't seem to see the word "membership" in the verse.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus said his disciples should pray, "Thy Kingdom Come." You don't pray for something that's already here!

Sure you do.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Present tense.

Acknowledged as a present reality.

 

[covenantee]

It did not mean the Kingdom had actually come!

Jesus said "the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Present tense. An extant reality.

You say "It did not mean the Kingdom had actually come!"

One of you is wrong.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can't seem to see the word "membership" in the verse.

It doesn't take Mormon spectacles to see it. Really! ;)

In all seriousness, that's what the context is suggesting. Being translated into the Kingdom does *not* mean we are actually swept up to heaven to be with God. ;) You don't see that either.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure you do.

Maybe you do, but I don't. You sure don't speak for me!

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Present tense.

Acknowledged as a present reality.

Our deliverance is an overcoming power--immortality is not yet with us.

 

[covenantee]

It doesn't take Mormon spectacles to see it. Really! ;)

In all seriousness, that's what the context is suggesting. Being translated into the Kingdom does *not* mean we are actually swept up to heaven to be with God. ;) You don't see that either.

We don't need to be swept up. The kingdom is an extant spiritual reality. And we're in it.

Unless, of course, you don't want to be.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus said "the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Present tense. An extant reality.

You say "It did not mean the Kingdom had actually come!"

One of you is wrong.

No, the question is: what does the statement mean in context? Does it mean the Kingdom has been realized fully? Or, does it mean you've somehow been confronted with some temporal reality of the Kingdom while awaiting its eschatological fulfillment? Obviously, it's the latter.

Are there temporal representations of God's Kingdom on earth? Of course. There was Israel's theocracy. There was God's presence dwelling in the temple. But none of these were examples of God's eschatological Kingdom coming to earth or being realized on earth.

I do believe there still are manifestations of God's Kingdom on earth. Yet, biblically, it still has not yet come. You're wrong about that. In Rev 11, you see Christ's Kingdom come at the end of the age--not at the beginning of the NT age.

Rev 11.15 “The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

When will this happen, brother? Is it something that has happened a long time ago, or is it something that has yet to happen and will take place in the future? The obvious answer: the Kingdom of Christ is yet to come.

 

[covenantee]

Maybe you do, but I don't. You sure don't speak for me!

You said "You don't pray for something that's already here!".
Maybe you don't, but I do.
You sure don't speak for me!

Our deliverance is an overcoming power--immortality is not yet with us.

I'm already delivered.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness...

Sorry about you.

 

[covenantee]

No, the question is: what does the statement mean in context? Does it mean the Kingdom has been realized fully? Or, does it mean you've somehow been confronted with some temporal reality of the Kingdom while awaiting its eschatological fulfillment? Obviously, it's the latter.

Are there temporal representations of God's Kingdom on earth? Of course. There was Israel's theocracy. There was God's presence dwelling in the temple. But none of these were examples of God's eschatological Kingdom coming to earth or being realized on earth.

I do believe there still are manifestations of God's Kingdom on earth. Yet, biblically, it still has not yet come. You're wrong about that. In Rev 11, you see Christ's Kingdom come at the end of the age--not at the beginning of the NT age.

Rev 11.15 “The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

When will this happen, brother? Is it something that has happened a long time ago, or is it something that has yet to happen and will take place in the future? The obvious answer: the Kingdom of Christ is yet to come.

The obvious answer: It's here, it's been here since Christ established it at His first coming, and here's what it is not, and what it is:

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[covenantee]

No, the question is: what does the statement mean in context? Does it mean the Kingdom has been realized fully? Or, does it mean you've somehow been confronted with some temporal reality of the Kingdom while awaiting its eschatological fulfillment? Obviously, it's the latter.

Are there temporal representations of God's Kingdom on earth? Of course. There was Israel's theocracy. There was God's presence dwelling in the temple. But none of these were examples of God's eschatological Kingdom coming to earth or being realized on earth.

I do believe there still are manifestations of God's Kingdom on earth. Yet, biblically, it still has not yet come. You're wrong about that. In Rev 11, you see Christ's Kingdom come at the end of the age--not at the beginning of the NT age.

Rev 11.15 “The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

When will this happen, brother? Is it something that has happened a long time ago, or is it something that has yet to happen and will take place in the future? The obvious answer: the Kingdom of Christ is yet to come.

You can't receive a kingdom unless it's here.

Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No sin was performed, its simply a "warning" as post #518 above clearly shows "IF"

this is ridiculous

Why warn someone UNLESS they can sin.

If sin is IMPOSSIBLE there is no need of a warning..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course you were answered in post #518, truth that you don't want to hear "IF"

THERE IS STILL SIN, AND PUNISHMENT FOR DOING THAT SIN

This is IMPOSSIBLE IN HEAVEN

Explain how sin is possible in heaven? I am still waiting.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And why would you think that literally everyone would heed that warning? I don't find that to be a reasonable conclusion.

I don't even find a literal interpretation of Zechariah 14 to be reasonable, but I certainly don't think it makes sense to deny what verses 17-19 imply if it's meant to be taken literally.

why would we not take prophecy literally? would that not reduce the purpose of prophecy and make it meaningless?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I thought you said you believe there wouldn't be any sin during the thousand years? Did I misunderstand you? That is what you seem to have implied in post #496.

You misunderstood. God says at the end of the 1000 years satan is unbound and gathers another army. and is defeated. THEN the end of this earth and its destruction is completed. and a new heaven and earth replaces it

If Satan can still deceive people and gather an army. there is still sin..