22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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WPM

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There is nothing in Scripture that indicates human history will effect a change in man's sin nature after Christ comes, except that God will impose tolerance for Christianity on earth, both politically and individually. Not all nations will choose for Christianity, however. Need we find evidence for this reality in Scriptures when it is already so?

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.
 

WPM

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I completely agree. The kingdom of God is not by observation but is within.
But I do think it will one day also be literal and observable.

Yes, it the eternal state, not some imaginary and undesirable mongrel future earth equally filled with glorified saints and mortal rebels, righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Whilst modern Premil try to present their millennium as free of the curse, sin and sinners, dying and crying,

Mmm…I don’t think most premils do that. They see the thousand years as greatly improved but not yet perfect. And a time where Jesus will judge disputes between nations but those disputes will be disputes but not wars.
 

WPM

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But that's not true...

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV


Peter warns us how Satan walks about seeking whom he may devour. That means Satan is NOT yet bound in the pit today.

The event of Satan being locked in his pit prison at the time of Revelation 20 is different, because it reveals Satan will not be able to deceive anyone in that time. Today Satan is still allowed to deceive, as Peter showed.

Thus the above 1 Peter 5:8 verse is a direct proof that Satan is not bound in his pit prison yet today. And a simple look at what is happening in today's world, with all the evil, it's easy to know this as fact.

· Premil has a big devil and a small God.
· Premil has a big devil and an impotent powerless church.

Amils have the opposite. They have a conquering Christ who has empowered the Church to invade Satan’s territory and see him defeated everywhere the light of the Gospel is received throughout the nations.

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Do you cause Satan sleepless nights or does he cause you sleepless nights?

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luke 9:1 records: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.
 

WPM

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Mmm…I don’t think most premils do that. They see the thousand years as greatly improved but not yet perfect.

Really? I do not agree. That sounds like a political answer.

Ok:

· Do you believe time continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
 

Marty fox

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But that's not true...

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV


Peter warns us how Satan walks about seeking whom he may devour. That means Satan is NOT yet bound in the pit today.

The event of Satan being locked in his pit prison at the time of Revelation 20 is different, because it reveals Satan will not be able to deceive anyone in that time. Today Satan is still allowed to deceive, as Peter showed.

Thus the above 1 Peter 5:8 verse is a direct proof that Satan is not bound in his pit prison yet today. And a simple look at what is happening in today's world, with all the evil, it's easy to know this as fact.

Thats not what I am saying i'm saying that satan is bound spiritually by deceiving people by the power of the gospel. He can't deceive those who choose to receive the message of the gospel
 

Davy

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Thats not what I am saying i'm saying that satan is bound spiritually by deceiving people by the power of the gospel. He can't deceive those who choose to receive the message of the gospel

I understand. But what I read was all this stuff about Satan being 'bound'. He is not bound spiritually yet either though. He can still deceive those in Christ IF... they allow it.
 

WPM

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im not understanding what you mean when you say a political answer…could you expand on that.

Your statement: "They see the thousand years as greatly improved but not yet perfect." What is it telling us? Nothing in my opinion. Where does it state this in Rev 20?

Can you also answer my questions?
 

WPM

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I understand. But what I read was all this stuff about Satan being 'bound'. He is not bound spiritually yet either though. He can still deceive those in Christ IF... they allow it.

There are multiple New Testament Scriptures to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all these to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. Scripture proves Satan was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), and negates Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Not used to rebuke from pushing men's doctrines, are you? You've got a lot to learn then. I'm not the only one around that has studied God's Word for theirself with His help, so I ain't easy prey like you're used to.
Says the guy who put me on ignore because you couldn't handle someone standing up to your bully behavior.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No, of course I don’t think they were mistaken about what the new heavens and earth will be like. I’m addressing places within passages that DONT match with what I read of the new heavens and earth, but that men insist ARE the new heavens and earth. If there is still even just some death, it cannot be a section or verse that can be jammed into the new earth. If there is even one curse of no rain or early death, that doesn’t fit there.
It doesn’t disprove your view to see that a place within a passage has jumped to talking about a different time rather than the time it first began to speak of.
So, you think that Isaiah referenced the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:17 only to completely change the subject in the very next verse? Imagine if I tried to tell you that Revelation 21:1 is about the new heavens and new earth, but then John started talking about a different time period starting in verse 2. What would you think of that?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Really? I do not agree. That sounds like a political answer.

Ok:

· Do you believe time continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?

As for your first question, there will be no more sun (and moon) so it would be hard or impossible to tell time as we currently know and mark it. And…I’m not sure time really has much meaning when death is done away with and only eternity stretches out before you…as to the thousand years, I think maybe the sun and moon still exist.

Your second question is trickier to answer as stated, given my current understanding. During the thousand years, I believe death is not yet done away with completely based on what I read. But on the new heaven and earth, yes, I believe death has been thrown into the lake of fire and death no longer exists.

Your third question is probably answered by the above.

Next question, I do not believe war happens during the thousand years (except once again at the very end of the thousand years) and weapons are turned/hammered into other implements. But disputes still exist sometimes which Jesus and the saints judge.


I do not believe satan is on earth during the thousand years but is released for a short while at the end of it. On the new earth, I do not believe he will ever be there but will have been thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe mortal men exist during the thousand years but that most live much, much longer but that on the new heavens and earth, all are eternal.

Im tired and not going to answer the last two right now if you don’t mind.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I completely agree. The kingdom of God is not by observation but is within.
But I do think it will one day also be literal and observable, in a greatly improved living for a thousand years and then later, in a literal and observable complete perfection for eternity.
What do you think would be the purpose of a time of "greatly improved living for a thousand years" after the return of Christ? Keep in mind what happens after the thousand years as recorded in Revelation 20:7-9 when answering the question.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I believe mortal men exist during the thousand years but that most live much, much longer but that on the new heavens and earth, all are eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This passage indicates that Jesus will be destroying and punishing "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" when He returns. With that in mind, what mortals will survive His return and why will they be allowed to survive?

Im tired and not going to answer the last two right now if you don’t mind.
You can answer my question whenever you feel like it as well. No rush. Thanks for showing Davy how it's possible for Premills to have respectful discussions with Amills.
 
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WPM

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As for your first question, there will be no more sun (and moon) so it would be hard or impossible to tell time as we currently know and mark it. And…I’m not sure time really has much meaning when death is done away with and only eternity stretches out before you…as to the thousand years, I think maybe the sun and moon still exist.

Eternity and time are not the same. You try to merge them into some type of transgender age, which does not in fact exist. Where does it teach this in Rev 20?

Your second question is trickier to answer as stated, given my current understanding. During the thousand years, I believe death is not yet done away with completely based on what I read. But on the new heaven and earth, yes, I believe death has been thrown into the lake of fire and death no longer exists.

Your third question is probably answered by the above.

Next question, I do not believe war happens during the thousand years (except once again at the very end of the thousand years) and weapons are turned/hammered into other implements. But disputes still exist sometimes which Jesus and the saints judge.

I do not believe satan is on earth during the thousand years but is released for a short while at the end of it. On the new earth, I do not believe he will ever be there but will have been thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe mortal men exist during the thousand years but that most live much, much longer but that on the new heavens and earth, all are eternal.

Im tired and not going to answer the last two right now if you don’t mind.

How do the wicked escape the wrath of God that destroys all the wicked at the second coming? Who is this 3rd group of people that Scripture does not recognize that are too wicked to be raptured and too righteous to be destroyed?
 

WPM

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As for your first question, there will be no more sun (and moon) so it would be hard or impossible to tell time as we currently know and mark it. And…I’m not sure time really has much meaning when death is done away with and only eternity stretches out before you…as to the thousand years, I think maybe the sun and moon still exist.

Your second question is trickier to answer as stated, given my current understanding. During the thousand years, I believe death is not yet done away with completely based on what I read. But on the new heaven and earth, yes, I believe death has been thrown into the lake of fire and death no longer exists.

Your third question is probably answered by the above.

Next question, I do not believe war happens during the thousand years (except once again at the very end of the thousand years) and weapons are turned/hammered into other implements. But disputes still exist sometimes which Jesus and the saints judge.


I do not believe satan is on earth during the thousand years but is released for a short while at the end of it. On the new earth, I do not believe he will ever be there but will have been thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe mortal men exist during the thousand years but that most live much, much longer but that on the new heavens and earth, all are eternal.

Im tired and not going to answer the last two right now if you don’t mind.

I agree with SJ, thanks for the Christian manner you engage in discussion as a Premil. It is indeed unique and refreshing on here.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Eternity and time are not the same. You try to merge them into some type of transgender age, which does not in fact exist.

I’m not seeing where you think I said eternity and time are the same thing…? As for transgender age, you completely lost me there.
 

stunnedbygrace

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How do the wicked escape the wrath of God that destroys all the wicked at the second coming? Who is this 3rd group of people that Scripture does not recognize that are too wicked to be raptured and too righteous to be destroyed?

Um…I don’t think the wicked do escape the wrath of God. I think they’re burnt up right before the new earth…

I’m not sure where you get the third group of people from?
 

WPM

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I’m not seeing where you think I said eternity and time are the same thing…? As for transgender age, you completely lost me there.

The Premil millennium has a real identity issue. It is totally confusing. It is a supposed hybrid age that is not taught anywhere in the inspired text. When Premils are pushed they cannot show anywhere in Revelation 20 that teaches a "greatly improved ... thousand years." It can only be found in the writings of its advocates. Where is this mongrel age that is supposedly greater than this age but worse than the NHNE taught anywhere in Scripture?
 
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