22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

No need to leave the subject of Zechariah 14:16-19 with the leftover wicked that came up against Jerusalem being made to worship The KING at that time, and keep the feast of tabernacles. That is proof of the "thousand years" reign by Christ starting at His future coming in Revelation 20 is literal.

Not so! Tim attacked Amils, and you conveniently jumped on the bandwagon again. Your silence is deafening.

 

[WPM]

I don't know why you'd say that, I am not condemning anyone to hell, only Jesus has that authority. And showing the error of doctrine is easy if one stays in God's Word, which is what I am doing. So you should be judging what I'm showing in God''s Word instead of following fools that only want me to shut up as to what God's Word actually says as written.

And by the rest of what you wrote, you reveal that you don't understand about the events of the end of this world that Lord Jesus warned His faithful servants about. So I'll say it again, if not for you, but for others that will listen...

The Amill position is in support of Satan's working of a one-world government.

The idea of a one-world government is about the beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns of Revelation 13 that is to happen at the very end of this present world.

Those who are behind that beast kingdom being established today are the children of darkness, Satan's host.

Some so-called Christian denominations are helping... that one world government movement, as they see it as a good thing. Who wouldn't want world peace, and a chicken in every pot for everyone on earth, craft prospering, etc.?

Jesus and His Apostles warned His faithful servants to not be deceived. Those in Christ are to be aware... of that coming time of "Peace and safety" upon the whole earth, because that was prophecy per the Book of Daniel about the coming of a false king in power over the whole earth and false worship.

The 'Kingdom Now' ideas support this movement on earth today. And the Amill doctrine of men is part of it, simply because the 'Kingdom Now' theory is one of the main ideas that Amillennialism believes.

But the reality per Lord Jesus and His Apostles, is that a false Messiah is coming first, prior to Jesus' future return. And the false Messiah is to setup the "image of the beast" in false worship. Those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed (Rev.13). This is what is coming upon this earth in our times with the one-world government movement. And it is this idea that Amill supports with its false belief that there is no literal reign on earth by Jesus AFTER His future coming. This is why they dump the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect after His future return, per Rev.20. They want us to wrongly believe that Lord Jesus is reigning over the earth now, from Heaven.

Of course it is not a physical earthly kingdom, as Premils imagine. You keep presenting Zechariah 14 I support for your opinion of Revelation 20, yes you have not been able to present a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts). That is because they do not correlate. This is your supposed proof-text and yet you have nothing of substance to bring to the table. You will never be able to because they do nit say what you want them to say.

The kingdom is a spiritual heavenly kingdom that we enter in by faith in this life. There is no other sin-cursed, death-blighted, goat-infested future millennium as you argue.

We are spiritual beings now. We are born from above. Why? Christ was a heavenly man. He was from above. We see this in John the Baptist’s words in John 3:31, "He that cometh from above (the Greek word is anothen) is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."

When Christ came to this earth mankind encountered heaven face-to-face. God had stepped out of eternity into time. But it is not just that He was a heavenly man that came from eternity. Jesus said in the exact same chapter in John 3:3: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (or anothen or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

He was a heavenly man who became an earthly man so that we earthly men could become heavenly men. A Christian is no longer worldly, they are heavenly! If your heart is out there in this world this morning, then that is who you are. That is your identity. That’s what lights your fire! That is where you belong.

Ephesians 2:4-6 says, “God … hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Ephesians 1:3 also corroborates, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

How are we seated in heavenly places?

Because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head!

· He lived on our behalf.
· He died on our behalf.
· He rose from the dead on our behalf.
· He reigns in heaven tonight on our behalf.

We are spiritually united to Him!

Jesus is described as “the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die” (John 6:50). When we partake of Him we partake of the heavenly realm. It is this that gives us our citizenship is in heaven. It is this the causes us to lay up our treasure in heaven. We are no longer earthlings, but heavenly creatures.

Philippians 3:20 tells us that “our citizenship is [now] in heaven.”

This proves: “we are not earthly beings having a heavenly experience, we are heavenly beings having an earthly experience.”

Hebrews 12:22 says (in the present tense), “ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.”

Heaven is a different world. It is governed by different rules. It is different priorities. Its focus is the glory of God. Righteousness is preeminent. Justice prevails. Order is its environment. Peace, joy and rest or what results.

 

[Davy]

Not so! Tim attacked Amils, and you conveniently jumped on the bandwagon again. Your silence is deafening.

All I did was declare the Zechariah 14:16-19 FACTS The Scripture itself presents... and that is how the leftovers that come upon Jerusalem will be made to come and bow to Christ Jesus as The KING and keep the feast of tabernacles. And that timing is AFTER Christ's future return as written in the earlier verses of Zechariah 14:1-8.

Nor is that the new heavens and a new earth timing, because ALL the wicked are to be cast into the future "lake of fire" AFTER Christ's short period of reign over them that begins with His future return.

So make up more lies, why don't ya.

 

[WPM]

I don't know why you'd say that, I am not condemning anyone to hell, only Jesus has that authority. And showing the error of doctrine is easy if one stays in God's Word, which is what I am doing. So you should be judging what I'm showing in God''s Word instead of following fools that only want me to shut up as to what God's Word actually says as written.

And by the rest of what you wrote, you reveal that you don't understand about the events of the end of this world that Lord Jesus warned His faithful servants about. So I'll say it again, if not for you, but for others that will listen...

The Amill position is in support of Satan's working of a one-world government.

The idea of a one-world government is about the beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns of Revelation 13 that is to happen at the very end of this present world.

Those who are behind that beast kingdom being established today are the children of darkness, Satan's host.

Some so-called Christian denominations are helping... that one world government movement, as they see it as a good thing. Who wouldn't want world peace, and a chicken in every pot for everyone on earth, craft prospering, etc.?

Jesus and His Apostles warned His faithful servants to not be deceived. Those in Christ are to be aware... of that coming time of "Peace and safety" upon the whole earth, because that was prophecy per the Book of Daniel about the coming of a false king in power over the whole earth and false worship.

The 'Kingdom Now' ideas support this movement on earth today. And the Amill doctrine of men is part of it, simply because the 'Kingdom Now' theory is one of the main ideas that Amillennialism believes.

But the reality per Lord Jesus and His Apostles, is that a false Messiah is coming first, prior to Jesus' future return. And the false Messiah is to setup the "image of the beast" in false worship. Those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed (Rev.13). This is what is coming upon this earth in our times with the one-world government movement. And it is this idea that Amill supports with its false belief that there is no literal reign on earth by Jesus AFTER His future coming. This is why they dump the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect after His future return, per Rev.20. They want us to wrongly believe that Lord Jesus is reigning over the earth now, from Heaven.

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom. They believed that the first thing He would do was subjugate all national Israel’s enemies, starting with the Romans. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The only problem was: they had a defective hyper-literalist understanding of Old Testament prophesies and a misconception of how the kingdom would look.

Matthew 3:1-2 records, “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken or ‘is made near’ or ‘approaches’).”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken).”

Mark 1:14-15 records, “Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (or eengiken).”

Jesus told the disciples as the kingdom advances, “And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken)” (Matthew 10:7).

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And in John 3:5 He says, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above where we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

you should be judging what I'm showing in God''s Word instead of following fools that only want me to shut up as to what God's Word actually says as written.

I have judged what you’ve shown in Gods word. I even agreed that a point you made was very valid.
But you also have no control of your tongue and no speck of humility in the way you talk to men who hold a different view than you. So I see that too. And since your practice is still very carnal, and that is what harms you, I have to speak up and hope you will see what you lack so you will ask for what you lack.

 

[Davy]

Of course it is not a physical earthly kingdom, as Premils imagine. You keep presenting Zechariah 14 I support for your opinion of Revelation 20, yes you have not been able to present a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts). That is because they do not correlate. This is your supposed proof-text and yet you have nothing of substance to bring to the table. You will never be able to because they do nit say what you want them to say.

Now you're just repeating posts.

You still refuse to cover the events of Zechariah 14:16-19. Just quoting that Scripture and then bypassing explanation of it like other Amill folks here have done, is not enough.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gah! I couldn’t follow that. Here’s my translation.
20 “No longer will babies die when only a few days old.
No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life.
No longer will people be considered old at one hundred!
Only the cursed will die that young!

To me, this is ample evidence that a jump backwards has been made that we weren’t alerted to and that it’s talking of a greatly improved time and a period once again where men live hundreds of years but still not yet the very end, where death, the last enemy, is done away with by being thrown into the lake of fire.
So it begins by talking of the new heavens and earth but it has markers that show a jump backward must have been made.

So, was Peter mistaken in 2 Peter 3:13 when he said the new heavens and new earth will be a place where righteousness dwells? It seems clear that he was saying only righteousness dwells there, otherwise what was the point of saying that? Also, was John mistaken when he said there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Revelation 21:4)?

You're not understanding that Old Testament prophecies were sometimes purposely written in an obscure way and then were clarified in the New Testament. A major example of this is the prophecies related to promises that God made to Abraham and his seed. Paul indicated that Abraham's seed is Christ (Galatians 3:16) and all of those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:29). Is that made clear in the Old Testament? No. Yet, that is the reality. We should trust and rely on the New Testament authors' understanding of the Old Testament.

 

[Davy]

I have judged what you’ve shown in Gods word. I even agreed that a point you made was very valid.
But you also have no control of your tongue and no speck of humility in the way you talk to men who hold a different view than you. So I see that too. And since your practice is still very carnal, and that is what harms you, I have to speak up.

So you say.

 

[Davy]

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came.

It's not how you want... to interpret it, He didn't bring His literal Kingdom at His 1st coming. Or did you forget Jesus said this, which I've already quoted...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
KJV

Ain't that just plain as day? He said, "My kingdom is not of this world".

That's even a type declaration that He knew... the unbelieving Jews would reject the kingdom.

So no, Christ's literal Kingdom, which its BASE is to be setup on earth where Jerusalem is today, per Psalms 2:6, has NOT come yet today. There's even a Dome of the Rock false temple on that place today where God has claimed He will place His future reign.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, was Peter mistaken in 2 Peter 3:13 when he said the new heavens and new earth will be a place where righteousness dwells? It seems clear that he was saying only righteousness dwells there, otherwise what was the point of saying that? Also, was John mistaken when he said there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Revelation 21:4)?

No, of course I don’t think they were mistaken about what the new heavens and earth will be like. I’m addressing places within passages that DONT match with what I read of the new heavens and earth, but that men insist ARE the new heavens and earth. If there is still even just some death, it cannot be a section or verse that can be jammed into the new earth. If there is even one curse of no rain or early death, that doesn’t fit there.
It doesn’t disprove your view to see that a place within a passage has jumped to talking about a different time rather than the time it first began to speak of.

 

[WPM]

I come at it from the opposite direction, and would add some commentary myself. I was raised in a communion that was Amill before I knew there was anything else. Nobody in my church ever mentioned a thousand year period, except that I read it in the Scriptures, in the book of Revelation. And in that book we are told it is dangerous to omit what is written there. So I will not omit mention of a Millennium which is, in fact, there.

What frustrates me is that I constantly hear this argument from Amills, who say that evidence of the Millennial Kingdom is *only* in Rev 20, when the fact is, we are told throughout Scripture that Messiah is bringing with him *God's Kingdom!* While it's true that we don't see other references to a specific length of time for this Kingdom, we are told that it lies in a future era. Some call it "Eternity," and some call it the "Millennium." But I don't think there should be any confusion that there is basis for a future Kingdom throughout the prophetic Scriptures!

For info: Christ brought His kingdom 2000 years ago. See my posts above.

Premil takes all the attention that Christ now enjoys reigning in heaven as the true tabernacle of God and redirects that to some alleged rebuilt brick temple in natural Jerusalem in the age to come. They bring the attention away from the substance, fulfilment and the eternal and put it on a long-demolished, long-abolished, long-rejected and long superseded building

Instead of Christ being the inheritance of the redeemed, natural Israel steals that hallowed place.

The Pharisees fell into the same trap with their faulty hyper-literal mind-set. That is why they crucified Christ. Whilst the Premil is stuck in the Old Testament, fixated with the earthly, physical, temporal and the natural, the NT is fixated with the heavenly, spiritual, eternal, and supernatural. Premil focuses in on Israel and a temporal future earthly kingdom full of warfare, carnal pleasures and ethnic separation. They promise a continuation of pain, sin, death, suffering, tears, hatred, war, funerals. Amils look for Christ and the abolition of all unrighteousness, bondage and corruption and the introduction of eternal peace, rest and harmony.

This whole carnal expectation takes away from the reason why the second coming is so splendid, it is the final return of Christ in all power and glory to abolish all unrighteousness and to set up a perfect, just and eternal kingdom where wickedness and corruption are forbidden.

It is a dangerous subtle unbiblical distraction to the real reason we look to the second coming: it is to see Christ come in power and glory to put down all rebellion, remove the curse and all bondage, to execute righteous judgment on all creation and usher in eternal peace, rest, bliss, righteousness and glory for the redeemed of God.

 

[WPM]

This is a repeat of the point I just answered. Beyond that, there is evidence that Jews, prior to Christian Premillennialism, believed that there would be a 7th millennium in human history, just as there was 7th day in the 7 days of creation. It's called the Millennial Day Theory.

This idea was apparently based on the Scripture which said, "A day is as a thousand years." So there isn't much biblical basis for the "Millennium" as a specific number of years. But the principle of "Seven" is certainly a big part of Scripture, and the translation of Seven into Seven Thousand may have some basis, as well.

So we are now in the millennium? It is now 2022!

I would agree that the visions in Revelation are not all chronological, even if there is a progressive narrative sequence. But in this case, the narrative requires there to be an advance in time following the return of Christ to destroy Antichrist. Satan, who was animating Antichrist, is bound for a thousand years, and later deposited where Antichrist had already been deposited. That requires a specific chronology that places ch. 20 after ch. 19.

I believe Revelation is full of 7 recaps. In my opinion, Revelation 17-19 is the 6th of 7 parallels. It is a record of God's dealing with Babylon. It culminates with the climatic coming of Christ. The wicked are all destroyed in that recapitulation, this agrees with every other Second coming passage. It is the end.

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Verses 17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, so now we're down to just ANY NUMBER written in God's Word could be just an imaginary expression!

So the Ten Commandments, really don't mean TEN Commandments afterall? How could the Israelites not know?

Your false Amill assumptions about numbers are truly silly.

You were given plenty of evidence to show that the word "thousand" is used figuratively several times in scripture and this is the only response you could come up with? LOL.

 

[Marty fox]

I don't know what you mean here.

Where the Bible speaks of Satan being bound and in the abyss, "that he should not deceive the nations".

Much love!

It only says that he is bound by deceiving the nations thus the gospel reveals Jesus to all nations. Satan is bound by deceiving the nations since the day of Pentecost

Who was in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:5
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Paul state four times that the gospel had reached the known world during his days and that is before fast travel,phone,TV's and the internet.

Thus the gospel grew to a room full of people to the whole known world within 30-40 years. That sounds like a binding of satan to me.

 

[Davy]

No, of course I don’t think they were mistaken about what the new heavens and earth will be like. I’m addressing places within passages that DONT match with what I read of the new heavens and earth, but that men insist ARE the new heavens and earth. If there is still even just some death, it cannot be a section or verse that can be jammed into the new earth. If there is even one curse of no rain or early death, that doesn’t fit there.
It doesn’t disprove your view to see that a place within a passage has jumped to talking about a different time rather than the time it first began to speak of.

Though I don't understand your very last statement, further above is what it's all about.

It there is still any of the wicked existing, that reveals the new heavens and a new earth timing hasn't come yet.

Amill teaches the falseness that at Jesus' future coming all the wicked are destroyed, and the new heavens and a new earth then happens at that time of His return. So the Scriptures I have shown they don't like, because those verses I quoted reveal that very thing of the wicked still existing during Christ's literal reign. And thusly those verses are in direct support of the "thousand years" reign by Christ over the unsaved nations of Revelation 20.

 

[Marty fox]

You realize I'm not saying anything like this . . . do you? That Jesus only reigns if Satan is bound? I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

Much love!

Because most people think thats what revelation 20 says

 

[WPM]

As I said before, the coming of the Messianic Kingdom is a regular theme, sometimes explicitly and sometimes inferentially, in the prophetic Scriptures. It is not only not a difference between night and day--it is the same thing! Christ's Kingdom, as stated in prophecy, is *precisely* what Rev 20 indicates, that Christ's Kingdom will be so dominant that rebellion against Christianity will not be tolerated. Christian Kingdoms, including Israel's Christian Kingdom, will not be repressed.

Whilst modern Premil try to present their millennium as free of the curse, sin and sinners, dying and crying, war and terror. But Revelation makes clear that the curse is not lifted until after the millennium. The new earth ushers in incorruption. It is only then that sin, death and weeping are terminated. In the Premil millennium sin, death and weeping; in the new heavens and new earth they finish.

Saying "today is the day of Salvation" is *not* denying that Salvation is tomorrow also! It is just arguing for the present availability of salvation in the prospect that our lives could be called into account at any time. People will, in fact, get saved tomorrow even though *today* is the day of salvation! ;)

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21).

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates human history will effect a change in man's sin nature after Christ comes, except that God will impose tolerance for Christianity on earth, both politically and individually. Not all nations will choose for Christianity, however. Need we find evidence for this reality in Scriptures when it is already so?

How can you say that? The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when He appears. How can one survive?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

 

[Davy]

It only says that he is bound by deceiving the nations thus the gospel reveals Jesus to all nations. Satan is bound by deceiving the nations since the day of Pentecost

Who was in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:5
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Paul state four times that the gospel had reached the known world during his days and that is before fast travel,phone,TV's and the internet.

Thus the gospel grew to a room full of people to the whole known world within 30-40 years. That sounds like a binding of satan to me.

But that's not true...

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Peter warns us how Satan walks about seeking whom he may devour. That means Satan is NOT yet bound in the pit today.

The event of Satan being locked in his pit prison at the time of Revelation 20 is different, because it reveals Satan will not be able to deceive anyone in that time. Today Satan is still allowed to deceive, as Peter showed.

Thus the above 1 Peter 5:8 verse is a direct proof that Satan is not bound in his pit prison yet today. And a simple look at what is happening in today's world, with all the evil, it's easy to know this as fact.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came.

I completely agree. The kingdom of God is not by observation but is within.
But I do think it will one day also be literal and observable, in a greatly improved living for a thousand years and then later, in a literal and observable complete perfection for eternity.

 

[WPM]

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates human history will effect a change in man's sin nature after Christ comes, except that God will impose tolerance for Christianity on earth, both politically and individually. Not all nations will choose for Christianity, however. Need we find evidence for this reality in Scriptures when it is already so?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

There is an awful reward for the Christ-rejecter – this will come on that final last day when all will stand before the throne of God and receive their judgment. There, the living and the dead will receive their just reward. Whilst the persecutors and mockers are being destroyed and sent to hell, believers will be ushered into eternal “rest.” The tribulation that they have concentrated upon the righteous will be turned on the perpetrators. The Holy Spirit tells us that Christ appears at His Coming “in flaming fire” with the intention of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 16:15-21: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

This is the end of the age and the end of the world! When Christ returns He destroys all the wicked. You reward the wicked by letting them inherit the new earth, Scripture forbids that. Because Premil has nothing to corroborate its belief in the Scriptures, it has to pitch its tent in the OT and take Scripture that pertains to the old covenant or new covenant and dump it in some alleged future millennium.

 

[marks]

Because most people think thats what revelation 20 says

I've never heard that in my circles.

Much love!