22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Spiritual Israelite

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From the op up to your post here, yours is the first post in three pages that I at least understood what you were saying. I’m not exactly a dumb person and yours was the only one I understood what you were trying to say.
I don't know what to tell you. I can understand the points made in the original posts, but maybe his particular writing style is just hard for you to follow. I'm sure he'd be more than willing to clarify any of the points that you'd like clarification on if you want him to.
 

Marty fox

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Every scripture you present is true from the biblical perspective of "Predestination"

God knows who will be saved, all believers have been predestined to be called and chosen, possibly something you disagree with?

Romans 8:28-31KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:20-21KJV
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I don’t disagree with that at all
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It is actually premillennialists like you who oppose plain scripture. I will give just a few examples where they do this even though I could give many.

Example 1:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter relates the events that will occur on the day of the Lord here as being "in keeping with his promise", which is a reference to His promise to come again (see 2 Peter 3:4). So, when looking at the context of 2 Peter 3, overall, it's very clear that the day of the Lord is a reference to the day Christ returns. And Peter plainly indicated that on that day the heavens and the earth will be burned up. And Peter said that this will be in fulfillment of the Lord keeping His promise to come again. So, this plainly indicates that everything will be burned up on the day He returns which would obviously make it impossible for any mortals to populate the earth after this event occurs. Other scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Rev 19:17-18 confirm that all unbelievers will be destroyed on the day Christ returns. We know from other scripture like 1 Cor 15:50-54 that believers will all be changed and have immortal bodies at that point.

Example 2:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

In this passage Jesus plainly stated that a singular time or event is coming during which all of the dead will be resurrected. Premillennialism contradicts this by claiming two (or more) times or events are coming when the dead will be resurrected. How can you even think to criticize Amillennialists for supposedly opposing plain scripture when Premills blatantly contradict plain scripture like this? Paul also referenced one resurrection event rather than two in Acts 24:15 and he indicated that it involves both the just and the unjust. Daniel 12:2 also indicates that the saved and unsaved will be resurrected at generally the same time (not necessarily the same exact moment, but certainly not 1000+ years apart as Premils falsely believe).

Example 3:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Paul indicated that God has set a singular day in the future at which point when that day arrives He will judge "the world". And the context of "the world" can be seen in this passage to be referring to "all people everywhere"/"everyone". This lines up with passages like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which portray all people being judged at the same time rather than the saved being judged 1000+ years before the unsaved, as Premils falsely believe.

Example 4:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This passage indicates that on the day Jesus returns He will take vengeance on and punish "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". That is obviously a description of unsaved people. And no unsaved person doesn't fit that description. So, this means Paul was saying that Christ will be destroying all of the unsaved on the day He returns. Meanwhile, we know that the saved will have immortal bodies at that point. So, Paul, like Peter, plainly taught that there will be no mortal survivors of Christ's return.

Do you think the following is referring to a literal one thousand generations?

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Do you think the following is referring to a literal one thousand hills?

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

It's common knowledge that the term "a thousand" is often used figuratively. Not only in scripture, but in every day life. Such as when people say things like "If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times...." or "a picture is worth a thousand words". How in the world can you not be aware of this?

Why don't you stop wasting time with your rhetoric and actually take one or two of the points made in the original post and try to refute them? As of now, it appears that you are just all talk and no substance.

okay so the first thing I’m stuck on is how your #1 and #4 seem to me to war against each other.
In #1 your mind insists on one day (the day of the Lord) that it has to be a literal one day.
In #4 you give very plausible proof that one day doesn’t always have to mean one literal day and 1000 doesn’t always have to mean a literal 1000.
So…is there a reason, (that you think I could grasp and you could explain), for why you insist that the day of the Lord MUST be a literal day?

Since youre the only one who made sense to me, I’m hoping I might make sense to you too, lol.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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okay so the first thing I’m stuck on is how your #1 and #4 seem to me to war against each other.
In #1 your mind insists on one day (the day of the Lord) that it has to be a literal one day.
In #4 you give very plausible proof that one day doesn’t always have to mean one literal day and 1000 doesn’t always have to mean a literal 1000.
Please read my post #46 again. I never gave "very plausible proof that one day doesn't always have to mean one literal day". I only indicated that the word "thousand" doesn't have to be taken literally.

My example 1 and example 4 support each other and example 4 had nothing to do with the thousand years. My point about the thousand years is a completely separate point that I was making apart from the point I was making using the 4 examples of how Amills interpret scripture plainly and literally, which we were accused of not doing.
So…is there a reason, (that you think I could grasp and you could explain), for why you insist that the day of the Lord MUST be a literal day?

Since youre the only one who made sense to me, I’m hoping I might make sense to you too, lol.
I believe the day of the Lord must be a literal day because of what is described as happening on that day, as can be seen in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 and 2 Peter 3:3-13. Both Paul and Peter indicate that global destruction will occur on that day. How long should we expect that to take? Doesn't seem like it should take long at all. Paul indicated that the dead in Christ being resurrected and everyone in Christ being caught up to Him will occur on that day as well. If the amount of time it will take for us all to be changed to have immortal bodies (in the twinkling of an eye - 1 Cor 15:51-52) is any indication, then these things shouldn't require more than a literal day to be completed.

Also, as I pointed out before, Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:13 that, according to the promise of His second coming "we are looking forward to a new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells". This shows that the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is in direct correlation with the second coming of Christ. If the new heavens and new earth weren't ushered in until 1,000+ years after the return of Christ, then what Peter said in 2nd Peter 3:13 would not make any sense.
 
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Marty fox

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I don't understand your question here. Full of sin and sinners? Satan and demons? Whatever you've learned to be Jesus' 1000 year kingdom, it's not what I know from the Bible.

Sinners will die. Satan will be bound.

Much love!

Or could satan be spiritually bound by deceiving those who choose to have the Holy Spirit through the power of the gospel?
 

WPM

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Okay, I had the nerve to pop into your thread a moment ago and ask a question of posters, so I’ll be polite and read this that I can tell you put a lot of work into.
I don’t know if you care for editing critiques but if you do, I think you should strike the whole second paragraph of your intro. You’ve just lost a good portion of your listeners with it. You want the people who don’t agree with you to give you their ear for a sec too, right? I actually think it might also make some of those who would agree with you skip or only skim the rest of your post.
Trust me, strike second paragraph. It will strengthen what you’ve written, not harm it.

Okay, I’m off to read your op!

Ok. I took your advice.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Oh hey, before I forget the other thing I was thinking. In 1 Peter 3:10, is there any reason there couldn’t be some time between the first and second sentence? im not asking if you think it probable, but just could it be a slim possibility.
 

Marty fox

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2/3 and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

4/5 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

6/7 and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired,

Three times John wrote of a thousand years, and when those thousand years are fulfilled/finished/expired.

How much do we need?

Much love!

Revelation 20 doesn’t even have both sets of the thousand years (binding and reigning) ending at the same time.

Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God.

Premil give satan way to much credit
 
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Marty fox

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Zechariah 14:1-4 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Again, context (sequence) is king!

Much love!

Read what else happens (in that day) in Zechariah chapters 12-14 and you will see that Zechariah was talking about the day of the first advent
 

stunnedbygrace

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Please read my post #46 again. I never gave "very plausible proof that one day doesn't always have to mean one literal day"

oh…I thought you did. Or rather I thought the verse you gave did. Okay never mind, I’m now confused that only half the verse seems validated to me. I cry uncle.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Oh hey, before I forget the other thing I was thinking. In 1 Peter 3:10, is there any reason there couldn’t be some time between the first and second sentence? im not asking if you think it probable, but just could it be a slim possibility.
I assume you're talking to me and I assume you're talking about 2 Peter 3:10?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

So, it seems that you're asking if there could be time between the day of the Lord coming like a thief and the heavens and the earth being burned up? I would say there is no possibility of that. I believe it's clearly saying that the heavens and earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. This lines up with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where he said, regarding unbelievers, that "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" on the day of the Lord. It makes sense that they would not be able to escape fire coming down on the entire earth, right?
 
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WPM

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Oh hey, before I forget the other thing I was thinking. In 1 Peter 3:10, is there any reason there couldn’t be some time between the first and second sentence? im not asking if you think it probable, but just could it be a slim possibility.

Do you not mean 2 Peter 3:10?
 

Marty fox

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Do you think there could be a slim possibility that there’s some amount of time between the seals being opened?

Yes but I believe that the 6 seals are the same time as the events in the Olivit discourse they are they read the same and I believe they happened in the time leading up to 70AD the destruction of Jerusalem.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I assume you're talking to me and I assume you're talking about 2 Peter 3:10?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

So, it seems that you're asking if there could be time between the day of the Lord coming like a thief and the heavens and the earth being burned up? I would say there is no possibility of that. I believe it's clearly saying that the heavens and earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. This lines up with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where he said, regarding unbelievers, that "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" on the day of the Lord. It makes sense that they would not be able to escape fire coming down on the entire earth, right?

okay thanks for answering. I have confusion between being told in the OT to not wish that day to come because it will be darkness and destruction with no light and that you don’t know what you’re saying to wish that day to come, while also the NT speaking of those who love the thought of His appearing and hastening the day. I don’t think they can be speaking of the same exact day. My mind can’t reconcile it otherwise.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Yes but I believe that the 6 seals are the same time as the events in the Olivit discourse they are they read the same and I believe they happened in the time leading up to 70AD the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ah, okay.
 
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