For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

Not to me. You mention "kenos" as meaning "kind" or "race" -- although some might disagree -- but it seems t me that "kenos" isn't part of monogenes. "Rather, "genos" is. Have you mistaken a "g" for a "k" here?

Monogenes=the one and only Son=μονογενοῦς monogenous=
μονογενής monogenes (mo-no-ǰe-nees') adj.
only-born (i.e. sole)

μονογενής (μονο-γενής, epic and ionic μουνο-γενής, ές)
Etym. γίγνομαι
only-begotten, single, Hes., Hdt., etc.; μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, Eur.


μονο-γενής , ές , Ep. and Ion. μουνο- , ( γένος ) the only member of a kin or kind : hence, generally, only, single , παῖς Hes. Op. 376 , Hdt. 7.221 , cf. Ev.Jo. 1.14 , Ant.Lib. 32.1 ; of Hecate, Hes. Th. 426 .
2. unique , of τὸ ὄν , Parm. 8.4 ; εἷς ὅδε μ. οὐρανὸς γεγονώς Pl. Ti. 31b , cf. Procl. Inst. 22 ; θεὸς ὁ μ. Sammelb. 4324.15 .
3. μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, dub. l. in E. Hel. 1685 .
4. Gramm., having one form for all genders , A.D. Adv. 145.18 .
5. name of the foot , Heph. 3.3 . II Adv. - νῶς, φέρεται μ. ἐν ἑνὶ τόπῳ grows only in one place, Peripl.M.Rubr. 56, cf. 11.
2. in a unique manner , Aët. 15.13 ,14.

J.

 

[face2face]

You err..
This is a flat out lie F2F!
J.

No it is not.

You said Jesus did not have the propensity to sin. Meaning he did not have the ability or inclination to sin.

I can quote your post if you like?

Let me explain, because I don't think you understand the Lords temptations or what propensity means.

allow James to teach you about the source & process of sin:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Firstly, God cannot be tempted because He isnt flesh and blood end of story! Divine nature cannot sin!

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires.

So the desires are from within our nature! The propensity to sin comes from within flesh and blood!

Now for the conception analogy hope you are listening @Johann

James 1:15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death

Do you see the progress Johann??????

1. Lustful thought conceives...its taken root in the mind
2. gives Birth to sin...you have acted out the desire
3. You die!

By you saying Jesus didn't have the propensities to sin must by your understanding mean he cannot be tempted for its impossible to be tempted to do evil if the desire is not present.

This is milk dear Johann.

 

[face2face]

@Johann - How did Jesus suffer when being tempted?

 

[Brakelite]

No, monogones don't mean beginning @Brakelite, did you read the "Us" in Genesis?
As I read Scripture I can clearly see the preexistence (Imperfect Tense) of the sole, unique Huios of YHVH..the majority on this forum cannot seem to grasp this.
J.

Not arguing with the preexistence of Jesus. He is/was Creator of all things... And not created Himself.

 

[RedFan]

Monogenes=the one and only Son=μονογενοῦς monogenous=
μονογενής monogenes (mo-no-ǰe-nees') adj.
only-born (i.e. sole)

μονογενής (μονο-γενής, epic and ionic μουνο-γενής, ές)
Etym. γίγνομαι
only-begotten, single, Hes., Hdt., etc.; μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, Eur.


μονο-γενής , ές , Ep. and Ion. μουνο- , ( γένος ) the only member of a kin or kind : hence, generally, only, single , παῖς Hes. Op. 376 , Hdt. 7.221 , cf. Ev.Jo. 1.14 , Ant.Lib. 32.1 ; of Hecate, Hes. Th. 426 .
2. unique , of τὸ ὄν , Parm. 8.4 ; εἷς ὅδε μ. οὐρανὸς γεγονώς Pl. Ti. 31b , cf. Procl. Inst. 22 ; θεὸς ὁ μ. Sammelb. 4324.15 .
3. μ. αἷμα one and the same blood, dub. l. in E. Hel. 1685 .
4. Gramm., having one form for all genders , A.D. Adv. 145.18 .
5. name of the foot , Heph. 3.3 . II Adv. - νῶς, φέρεται μ. ἐν ἑνὶ τόπῳ grows only in one place, Peripl.M.Rubr. 56, cf. 11.
2. in a unique manner , Aët. 15.13 ,14.

J.

But it seems to me that this understanding of monogenes as "one of a kind" or "unique" doesn't get us anywhere in the debate over whether that one-of-a-kind, unique being was or was not created.

 

[face2face]

It wasn't just the crucifixion but every day wrestling with his own will and very few actually know how he overcame his temptations. So few Christians understand - They shout "he was a God-Man" he was "divine" he was part of a three headed god. It's man made doctrine which has deceived 100's of millions. The true Christ will appear and when he does all will be revealed.

So then, anyone like to tell us how he overcame if he was a man who had a Father in Heaven and a mum on earth? What was his secret?

 

[Brakelite]

Not only does the Bible tell us that Christ is begotten of God, but it also says He is the only begotten of God (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18 and 1 John 4:9 KJV). No one else has ever been begotten of God. Even an angel cannot be said to be a son in this respect. Just as the material things of our world were made out of nothing, so too the angels were made out of nothing (out of things that do not appear – see Hebrews 11:3). This though, cannot be said of Christ. He was begotten (brought forth) of God’s very own substance. He therefore, in His very nature, is truly and fully divine. That much is indisputable. He is not the Father but in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 1:19, 2:9). All things, including the angels, were created through (by) Christ. Christ, in His pre-existence, was not part of God’s creation. He is of the Godhead. We are told in the opening verses of the Book of Hebrews that Christ is the “express image” of His Father’s person (Hebrews 1:1-3). As the writer of Hebrews further explained: “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” Hebrews 1:4
Christ would have received this “inheritance” when He was begotten (brought forth) of God. Paul wrote that the fullness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell in Christ (Colossians 1:19, 2:9). This was Christ’s inheritance as the Son of God. The writer of Hebrews continues (quoting Psalm 2:7) “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” Hebrew 1:5 The answer is none of them. God never said to any of the angels “this day have I begotten thee”.
This cannot mean, from this day forward you become unique. No. It's deeper than that.
He only said this to Christ – His Son. We need to remember that Christ was God’s Son throughout eternity. He did not become God’s Son at His incarnation or at His resurrection. The passage continues “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.” Hebrew 1:6 Christ had to be begotten before He came into the world, else it could not be said that God brought “the firstbegotten into the world."John the gospel writer said exactly the same. .
KJV 1 John 4:9-10
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that God sent Christ into the world to become a son.
Christ was incarnated at Bethlehem through Mary, but He was begotten of God before the world began. In eternity. This had to be so for scripture says, God sent His Son into the world.

 

[face2face]

But it seems to me that this understanding of monogenes as "one of a kind" or "unique" doesn't get us anywhere in the debate over whether that one-of-a-kind, unique being was or was not created.

The issue with trying to cherry pick these words is they are often used elsewhere to signifies both uniqueness and endearment. Isaac in Hebrews 11:17, quoting from the Septuagint of Genesis 22:2 in place of the Hebrew which reads “Thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac,” says that Abraham offered up (lit., “was offering”) “his only begotten son.” I've considered this word to always be in the context of a created life.

 

[face2face]

Not only does the Bible tell us that Christ is begotten of God, but it also says He is the only begotten of God (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18 and 1 John 4:9 KJV). No one else has ever been begotten of God. Even an angel cannot be said to be a son in this respect. Just as the material things of our world were made out of nothing, so too the angels were made out of nothing (out of things that do not appear – see Hebrews 11:3). This though, cannot be said of Christ. He was begotten (brought forth) of God’s very own substance.

Going along well Brakelite till the bold statement applied a handbrake and my head almost went through the windscreen!

You cant prove hypostasis to mean a dual nature, sinful flesh and eternal nature ,co inhabiting one body! Absurd like the trinity.

If indeed that is what you are implying ????

 

[face2face]

A contrary position has been argued by C. K. Barrett, J. B. Bauer, F. Büchsel, R. H. Lightfoot, B. Lindars, and R. Schnackenburg. While admitting the linguistic strength of the preceding view, these scholars have argued that in the Johannine passages monogené̄s denotes Jesus’ origin in addition to His uniqueness. Jesus is not only the “only” Son of the Father: He is the “begotten” Son because He derives His being from the Father. Barrett, e.g., insisted that the Son proceeds from the Father in personal though never independent existence (p. 166). J. B. Bauer held that in John huiós designates Jesus’ origin and contains the idea of His eternal begetting by God (p. 868).

C. B. Hoch Jr., "Only Begotten" The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988) 606.

Bold text is true.

 

[Robert Gwin]

..forgetting..


The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Peace be upon you
Jesus is the CREATOR not a created being.
J.

Altered Bible Joe, the proper word it through not by. Take the Bible as a whole. Jesus was created, the first and only creation by Jehovah exclusively since nothing else existed Rev 3:14, even your verse 15 showed he was the firstborn of every creature, but you seem to overlook that. Jesus became the master worker in the creation Pro 8:30, assisting Jehovah with everything that was created Gen 1:26. The in the beginning of Jn 1:1 was speaking about creation Joe

 

[Johann]

No it is not.

You said Jesus did not have the propensity to sin. Meaning he did not have the ability or inclination to sin.


Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, an

I can quote your post if you like?

Let me explain, because I don't think you understand the Lords temptations or what propensity means.

allow James to teach you about the source & process of sin:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Firstly, God cannot be tempted because He isnt flesh and blood end of story! Divine nature cannot sin!

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires.

So the desires are from within our nature! The propensity to sin comes from within flesh and blood!

Now for the conception analogy hope you are listening @Johann

James 1:15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death

Do you see the progress Johann??????

1. Lustful thought conceives...its taken root in the mind
2. gives Birth to sin...you have acted out the desire
3. You die!

By you saying Jesus didn't have the propensities to sin must by your understanding mean he cannot be tempted for its impossible to be tempted to do evil if the desire is not present.

This is milk dear Johann.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:

Tell me, did the goat "became" sinful?

Isa_53:11-12;=bear

Gal_3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”-

In what "sense" did Christ became a curse for us?

Heb_9:28;

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What is an asham? Sin-offering&guilt offering?

F2F, this going backward and forward between me and you is not edifying brother and besides all this there is an unwholesome ..
Unitarianism
Christadelphianism
Modalism
Monarchianism
Socianianism
and Arianism..indissolubly inter -meshed and allowed on this platform with a lot of philosophical oratory and debate to the point where I must ask...

Who is the Christ, why did He come, why was crucified, why was He resurrected, why did He bear our sins, who is the Holy Spirit, seldom mentioned on this platform, why is He here...?

You have done your best to topple me from holding firmly to the Triune Godhead/Theiotes/theotes/ without success and as you peruse at your leisure the above -isms and schisms you will find at ease , comfortable.
Shalom to you and family
Stay on the meatier parts of the doctrines, I am more than willing to "drink milk" manna from above.
J.

 

[RedFan]

The issue with trying to cherry pick these words is they are often used elsewhere to signifies both uniqueness and endearment. Isaac in Hebrews 11:17, quoting from the Septuagint of Genesis 22:2 in place of the Hebrew which reads “Thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac,” says that Abraham offered up (lit., “was offering”) “his only begotten son.” I've considered this word to always be in the context of a created life.

Point taken! I'm not going to cherry pick something out of Hebrews 11 and declare that its author meant what John's gospel (or any other writer) meant by the word monogenes, simply through the lens of how many sons Abraham actually had when he went to sacrifice Isaac. (Shame on me, I thought Isaac was Abe's only son at that point in time. I guess Johann thinks the author of Hebrews disagrees -- otherwise his point would fall flat.)

If we reject the effort to divorce monogenes from the process of generation, and translate it as only-begotten giving "begotten" its usual meaning, the issue becomes: does being "generated" necessarily entail being "created." This is the Arian controversy in a nutshell (and all of those fourth century folks spoke Greek, so their understanding of monogenes surely differed from Johann's).

 

[Johann]

View attachment 22614

@Johann - How did Jesus suffer when being tempted?

JESUS AS HIGH PRIEST

The book of Hebrews is unique in the NT in calling Jesus high priest. There are two places in the OT where the Messiah is described in priestly terms (cf. Ps. 110:4; Zechariah 3-4). This theme will be developed fully in Heb. 4:14-5:10 and 6:13-7:28.

Hebrews describes Jesus' High Priestly work in several ways.

1. makes atonement for sin (cf. Heb. 2:17; 7:27; 9:14)

2. gives strength for those tempted by sin (cf. Heb. 2:18)

3. gives grace in time of need (cf. Heb. 4:15-16)

4. brings eternal life (cf. Heb. 5:9-10)

5. intercedes on believers' behalf (cf. Heb. 7:25; 9:24)

6. gives confidence to approach a holy God (cf. Heb. 10:19-21)

Heb_2:18 "For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered" "He has suffered" is a perfect active indicative which speaks of the ongoing trials that Jesus faced. The term "tempted" (peirazô)...important word here since you cannot tell me the difference between dokimazo and peiradzo has the connotation to tempt with a view toward destruction (cf. Heb_4:15; Mat_4:1). The evil one tried to destroy Him at Calvary, but God turned this into the great victory of redemption.

"He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" This same truth is repeated in Heb_4:15. Jesus fully identifies with His needy people (cf. Heb_2:17)


1) "For in that he himself hath suffered," (en ho gar peponthen autos) "For in what (the way) he himself suffered;” from the accursed cross, Gal_3:13; He suffered for sin, "the Just for the unjust," 1Pe_3:18.

2) "Being tempted," (peirastheis) "being tempted," or tested, Heb_4:15-16. On the mount of temptation he was tempted and he overcame by the Word, Mat_4:1-10; Mat_26:37-41; Heb_12:3.

3) "He is able to succour them that are tempted," (dunatoi tois peirazomenois boethesai) "He is able (dynamically empowered) to help those (who are) being tempted." In compassion, love, and mercy he understands and intercedes to the Father for his brethren in all their weaknesses; He makes a way thru the trials and storms of life, 1Co_10:13; Heb_13:5; Php_4:19; 1Pe_5:7.
Garner.

What did Christ Jesus do when He was being tested and tried by the adversary?

NO solicitation TO sin as we can clearly see when Satan "tried" Jesus F2F...but this is going nowhere, circular reasoning.
J.

 

[Johann]

JESUS AS HIGH PRIEST

The book of Hebrews is unique in the NT in calling Jesus high priest. There are two places in the OT where the Messiah is described in priestly terms (cf. Ps. 110:4; Zechariah 3-4). This theme will be developed fully in Heb. 4:14-5:10 and 6:13-7:28.

Hebrews describes Jesus' High Priestly work in several ways.

1. makes atonement for sin (cf. Heb. 2:17; 7:27; 9:14)

2. gives strength for those tempted by sin (cf. Heb. 2:18)

3. gives grace in time of need (cf. Heb. 4:15-16)

4. brings eternal life (cf. Heb. 5:9-10)

5. intercedes on believers' behalf (cf. Heb. 7:25; 9:24)

6. gives confidence to approach a holy God (cf. Heb. 10:19-21)

Heb_2:18 "For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered" "He has suffered" is a perfect active indicative which speaks of the ongoing trials that Jesus faced. The term "tempted" (peirazô)...important word here since you cannot tell me the difference between dokimazo and peiradzo has the connotation to tempt with a view toward destruction (cf. Heb_4:15; Mat_4:1). The evil one tried to destroy Him at Calvary, but God turned this into the great victory of redemption.

"He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted" This same truth is repeated in Heb_4:15. Jesus fully identifies with His needy people (cf. Heb_2:17)


1) "For in that he himself hath suffered," (en ho gar peponthen autos) "For in what (the way) he himself suffered;” from the accursed cross, Gal_3:13; He suffered for sin, "the Just for the unjust," 1Pe_3:18.

2) "Being tempted," (peirastheis) "being tempted," or tested, Heb_4:15-16. On the mount of temptation he was tempted and he overcame by the Word, Mat_4:1-10; Mat_26:37-41; Heb_12:3.

3) "He is able to succour them that are tempted," (dunatoi tois peirazomenois boethesai) "He is able (dynamically empowered) to help those (who are) being tempted." In compassion, love, and mercy he understands and intercedes to the Father for his brethren in all their weaknesses; He makes a way thru the trials and storms of life, 1Co_10:13; Heb_13:5; Php_4:19; 1Pe_5:7.
Garner.

What did Christ Jesus do when He was being tested and tried by the adversary?

NO solicitation TO sin as we can clearly see when Satan "tried" Jesus F2F...but this is going nowhere, circular reasoning.
J.

 

[Brakelite]

Going along well Brakelite till the bold statement applied a handbrake and my head almost went through the windscreen!

You cant prove hypostasis to mean a dual nature, sinful flesh and eternal nature ,co inhabiting one body! Absurd like the trinity.

If indeed that is what you are implying ????

Christ clothed His divinity with humanity. He lived fully as a human, not once using His divine attributes to accomplish anything or to carry out His work. He lived by faith. There were a couple of occasions when His divinity shone through, like when the mob fell backwards in the garden. The plan devised between Father and Son to redeem man required precisely what you alluded to earlier...a man who could become a High Priest.

 

[Johann]

Point taken! I'm not going to cherry pick something out of Hebrews 11 and declare that its author meant what John's gospel (or any other writer) meant by the word monogenes, simply through the lens of how many sons Abraham actually had when he went to sacrifice Isaac. (Shame on me, I thought Isaac was Abe's only son at that point in time. I guess Johann thinks the author of Hebrews disagrees -- otherwise his point would fall flat.)

If we reject the effort to divorce monogenes from the process of generation, and translate it as only-begotten giving "begotten" its usual meaning, the issue becomes: does being "generated" necessarily entail being "created." This is the Arian controversy in a nutshell (and all of those fourth century folks spoke Greek, so their understanding of monogenes surely differed from Johann's).

Noticed you are a new member here, correct @RedFan? If so, welcome.

Question
Did Christ Jesus preexist (hate to use worldly terminologies) with the Father?
And is Christ God?
That is all I want to know, for now...
J.

 

[Johann]

Altered Bible Joe, the proper word it through not by. Take the Bible as a whole. Jesus was created, the first and only creation by Jehovah exclusively since nothing else existed Rev 3:14, even your verse 15 showed he was the firstborn of every creature, but you seem to overlook that. Jesus became the master worker in the creation Pro 8:30, assisting Jehovah with everything that was created Gen 1:26. The in the beginning of Jn 1:1 was speaking about creation Joe

I have shown you Jesus is the Creator...now you veer off in a million directions with an altered perception and viewpoint
Shalom
Time for @marks to come bulldozing this tower of "Babel"
J.

 

[Johann]

A contrary position has been argued by C. K. Barrett, J. B. Bauer, F. Büchsel, R. H. Lightfoot, B. Lindars, and R. Schnackenburg. While admitting the linguistic strength of the preceding view, these scholars have argued that in the Johannine passages monogené̄s denotes Jesus’ origin in addition to His uniqueness. Jesus is not only the “only” Son of the Father: He is the “begotten” Son because He derives His being from the Father. Barrett, e.g., insisted that the Son proceeds from the Father in personal though never independent existence (p. 166). J. B. Bauer held that in John huiós designates Jesus’ origin and contains the idea of His eternal begetting by God (p. 868).

C. B. Hoch Jr., "Only Begotten" The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988) 606.

Bold text is true.

...almost like "a mere emanation" not true.
J.

 

[Johann]

But it seems to me that this understanding of monogenes as "one of a kind" or "unique" doesn't get us anywhere in the debate over whether that one-of-a-kind, unique being was or was not created.

It would seem F2F "like" your reply to me, so let me ask you @RedFan, was Christ Jesus ever created?
J.