For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

and in his own body he overcame a sin prone nature

Likeness..remember likeness!
There was NO propensity to sin in Christ Jesus.
J.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Robert, too many scriptures that clearly shows that Jesus Christ is God and not a "created" being but the living Creator..who is God since only Elohim can create.
J.

Jehovah is the only creator sir, the only one in the Bible with that title. His first and only solo creation was Jesus, who became His master worker, and assisted in all other creation. Why do you teach Jesus is called the only-begotten of Jehovah, a title that is exclusive to him.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Shalom to you
J.

Do you think there is a more diverse word that Shalom Joe? I think it would be hard pressed to come up with one.

 

[Johann]

Jesus experienced no. 1

...forgetting..

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when he comes into the Olam Hazeh, he says "ZEVACH UMINCHAH LO CHAFATZTA ("sacrifice and offering" Ps 40:7 (6) You did not desire but a body you prepared for me; (Ps 39:7 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM)
OJB


A body didst thou prepare for me (sōma katērtisō moi). First aorist middle indicative second person singular of katartizō, to make ready, equip. Using sōma (body) for ōtia (ears) does not change the sense, for the ears were the point of contact with God’s will.


Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

These scriptures, in context, cleary teaches me Christ Jesus pre-excistence as God with God and I can cite many more.
As to the soma/ears is in the "likeness" of our human nature...a deep, profound mystery here.

No man on this planet can fully "exegete" Elohim and like brakelit said, we are treading on holy ground, better take our sandals off (intellectual sophistry)

I believe, therefore I speak.
J.

 

[Johann]

Do you think there is a more diverse word that Shalom Joe? I think it would be hard pressed to come up with one.

Peace to you.
J.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus needed to be save because he was the Son of Adam and inherited his nature, as we do today. Hebrews 5:7 is clear, Jesus needed to be redeemed not in a sense from sin (no way!) but from the grave which we know couldn't hold him due to his Fathers righteousness and his purity. Have a look how many times in the Acts of the Apostles it mentions God raising His son?

But regarding the fact that he (God) has raised Jesus from the dead, never again to be in a state of decay, God has spoken in this way: ‘I (Yahweh) will give you (Jesus) the holy and trustworthy promises made to David.’ Acts 13:34 is but one.

Okay. I can live with that.

 

[Johann]

Jehovah is the only creator sir,

..forgetting..


The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Peace be upon you
Jesus is the CREATOR not a created being.
J.

 

[Johann]

You have added nature though you know the context is character and person.

You may add essence and substance since this is not twisting and wresting scriptures
J.

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree, but for the purpose of this exercise I have limited our discussion to literal, hyper literal and figurative attempts to interpret Scripture, for the time being any anyway.

So far the discussion thread with Johann is interesting and we already are drawing to a number of insights regarding the way trinitarians interpret Scripture.

Of course excepting it as true doesn't really reveal what precisely is true.



Okay that's a great example one I have just asked Johann to look into.



True, caution is needed when using types, anti-types, allegorical meanings etc. It might be possible to take them too far. Of course Galatians 4&5 is a great example and one I think few would have interpreted from Gen 16 if it wasn't for the Apostle Paul inspired work.



A very mature response thanks

Re your comments on John 17:5 we have a slight issue to deal with first before jumping to the common trinitarian conclusion.

If the Scripture speaks as though others per-existed, as well as Christ, what are we to make of that?

Of believers, Paul "Whom he did foreknow." (Romans 8:29) - are you to assert from this a literal reading also and say that God foreknew you therefore you per-existed?

He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. Romans 9:23 & 2 Timothy 1:9

What's interesting here, is if we took a literal approach to these verses we would have the entire elect per-existing - imagine that?

He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4

Of Jeremiah, the LORD said Jeremiah 1:5 - like Jesus, was Jeremiah in some per-existent state only to be sent down into his mothers womb to be born a baby???

Now I know how you will justify these verse's and provide all manner of explanation all the while holding fast to your trinitarian notions of Christ, but the truth is, you and others here cherry pick verses to support you beliefs and in doing so fail to obtain a wider understanding of God's plan in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Shortly Johann will provide his interpretation of John 17:5 and I already know how he will treat it...it wont be with an open mind - lets see.

I love myopicism, a religion that pre existed even Jesus.

 

[Johann]

I love myopicism, a religion that pre existed even Jesus.

Don't forget sagacious,astucious

J.

 

[Waiting on him]

Don't forget sagacious,astucious

J.

@face2face said confirmation bias, maybe go walk about and give this some consideration?

 

[farouk]

..forgetting..


The Preeminence of Christ
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Peace be upon you
Jesus is the CREATOR not a created being.
J.

@Johann A very clear passage........

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So faith is your response.
No rational explanation.
Faith.

No, it is faith and scripture. I offer my rebuttal in agreement with the Teaching presented. #802. But that is a only a portion of evidence that can slam dunk any of your theology.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It's sad that you do not understand scripture by your own research Ron. There is not one scripture in this typical Trinitarian outburst or shotgun blast of scripture you have sprayed over the page that says the Son of God is truly God let alone a deity of any kind, unless you want to make him a mythological pagan deity. Truly.

Your turn...I really think we've done this a few times already where you eventually take your toys away and go home. The thing is you are not a serious believer, at least in scripture, the word of God, Ron.

Just take the copied first verse you downloaded from some place, Titus 2:13. Is this saying really that Christ is divine or God, seriously? You are fooling yourself if you think it does mean this. This verse is a significant one and there are two other verses that I'm familiar with that reinforced what it actually means.

Matt 16:27 - For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each
person according to what they have done.

Luke 9:26 - Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Now remember, these are Christ's words that may carry more weight don't you think?

Bible Study 101: what is common in the two verses I just quoted Ron? Hint: the words are bolded.

Then you have your answer and it isn't that the Son is divine or God either!!

Yes, you do continue to entertain me with your foolish attempt to show a face that you genuinely are attempting to know and mature in the word of God, and you are not alone, as you said; you have over 2 billion like you, you said, so they cannot all be wrong and therefore must be right aye?...the path to destruction is very wide and the popular route Ron, remember that one..

Well, I am not surprised at your attack on my understanding, it is typical. It is also typical for non-trinitarians to twist and distort scripture to conform to their view.
There is obviously a spiritual blockage that prevents you from seeing the LIGHT.
JESUS IS THE LORD - WHO HAS ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. No one has all authority except GOD. This position requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. One could not possess ALL this authority unless He was fully GOD. God could not grant or equip a man or even an angel with this ability and power, He would be creating another god equal to Himself. Furthermore, only God can remove the sins of mankind, trillions of them btw, God alone knowing each and everyone of them.
JESUS, if He wasn't fully God would never make the claims of being the LIGHT, THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE SAVIOR, THE GOOD SHEPHERD, THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE, THE DOOR, THE BREAD OF LIFE, THE VINE, etc., etc.; basically the source of all life, the CREATOR. No, if He wasn't the ALL MIGHTY GOD, He would draw attention to His Father ONLY and give Him all the glory and credit, like all men, all prophets and angels before Him did. He would say believe in the Father for life only.
You fail miserably with your twisted theology that is a dishonor to Christ. Be careful, if you dishonor the SON, YOU DISHONOR THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

If Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus, and wanted to lead people away from and having faith in Christ, what do you think he would try to do? Dishonor, discredit, confuse his followers into thinking he is not God, degrade who He is and influence people not to worship Him, put doubts in believer's minds about Him.
When these doubts are present, so it is with your faith, doubtful and insecure; for you do not really know Christ, so you do not really honor Him and worship Him as you should. Why should you _ if you thought He wasn't really the source of life, wasn't really fully GOD?

 

[farouk]

What will you do with all the scriptures that prove Jesus Christ is God? Is your mind rejecting those?

@TLHKAJ Sincerely good questions......

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@TLHKAJ Sincerely good questions......

There are no scriptures that prove Jesus is God, only scriptures that prove Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. The Only Begotten Son of God is divine but he's not God.

 

[Pearl]

Colossians 1:15–17

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. and in him all things hold together.

 

[Pearl]

There are no scriptures that prove Jesus is God, only scriptures that prove Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. The Only Begotten Son of God is divine but he's not God.

For most Christians there are many scriptures which point Jesus being God but not all believers in God are of the same mind as this thread has proved. Scriptures tell me Jesus is God but other scriptures tell them he isn't.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

For most Christians there are many scriptures which point Jesus being God but not all believers in God are of the same mind as this thread has proved. Scriptures tell me Jesus is God but other scriptures tell them he isn't.

The scriptures are very clear that anyone denying Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God and anyone who denies it was God who sent his Son to the world of mankind and resurrected his Only Begotten Son three days after his death are those who will not get eternal life. It says nothing about Jesus being God. It says Jesus is Devine or a god. Jesus didn't claim to be God, in fact at John 20:17 Jesus told Mary Madalene after Jesus had been resurrected to go to his apostles and disciples and say to them that he was ascending to his Father and their Father and to his God and their God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Colossians 1:15–17

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. and in him all things hold together.

When was he born?