Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I really do not think you have answered your question of your thread yet, Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

I would suggest you begin again by doing a commentary of Col 1:15-20 first. It is a very logical point of departure. Your first two posts are infused with parts of other scripture and mixed ideas, steered along as your discussion to the result you desire.

For starters, do you think that Paul in Col 1:15-20 is speaking to the Genesis creation by the Father where he manipulated the elements of the earth, rocks, seas, and created plant life etc., or is it something else? Is Paul speaking to Christ creating the seas or something else? Is Paul speaking of ALL things created or a specific subset of things?

Thanks

APAK

Colossians 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:10-12 is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the universe

The OP is very clear

 

[APAK]

Colossians 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:10-12 is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the universe

The OP is very clear

So I take it you do not want to address my post and questions. Your OP is not easy to follow. And then you suddenly conclude that Christ is the actual creator, and then of what?! You have no idea do you?!

Happy trails...

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

So I take it you do not want to address my post and questions. Your OP is not easy to follow. And then you suddenly conclude that Christ is the actual creator, and then of what?! You have no idea do you?!

Happy trails...

Did you read the OP?

Here is a paragraph from it

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe

What of this can you not understand

 

[APAK]

Did you read the OP?

Here is a paragraph from it

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe

What of this can you not understand

Wishful thinking. Christ never created any part of the Genesis creation. You have zero scripture to show your claim.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Wishful thinking. Christ never created any part of the Genesis creation. You have zero scripture to show your claim.

This passage clearly refers to the Creation of Genesis 1

Psalms 102:24-27
[24]I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations.
[25]Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[26]They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed.
[27]But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.

 

[APAK]

This passage clearly refers to the Creation of Genesis 1

Psalms 102:24-27
[24]I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations.
[25]Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[26]They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed.
[27]But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.

Yes, this scripture does refer in part to the Genesis creation for a very good reason. So what is your point, that Christ directly took part in the Genesis creation? That would be a stretch. Let me elaborate on Psalms 102 a bit.

Psalms 102 in general is about human affliction and weakness and these human born qualities are glaring as compared to our glorious Father, the only creator of us all and all things in existence.

It is strongly suggested that Psalms 102:23-27 is a conversation between Christ and his Father, our one and only Genesis creator.

Christ is saying to his Father that he broke his spirit, mind and body and he eventually died on this earth. During his life, Christ was afraid and prayed to his Father that he would not be so afflicted and have to die. He said to his Father you are the same and you do not die. You live forever. Father, you are the creator/maker of the current earth and the heavens. Even these will be destroyed and yet you will still be the same and live on. And Father, the children of generations after my time here on earth will live within you, (and through me) in your presence. Your Kingdom will never end, amen.

Hebrews 1:1-14 and Col 1:15-20 amongst other scripture, carries on this conversation with Paul's words.

Would you like me to provide a more thorough commentary of each of them to show that Psalms 102:23-27, Hebrews 1:1-14 and Col 1:15:20 all speak the same type of language and say that the Father is the only Genesis creator, and that the Son was given authority to ONLY create and establish the (the Body) Church and all things that support it in heaven, invisible and visible on this earth today?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes, this scripture does refer in part to the Genesis creation for a very good reason. So what is your point, that Christ directly took part in the Genesis creation? That would be a stretch. Let me elaborate on Psalms 102 a bit.

Psalms 102 in general is about human affliction and weakness and these human born qualities are glaring as compared to our glorious Father, the only creator of us all and all things in existence.

It is strongly suggested that Psalms 102:23-27 is a conversation between Christ and his Father, our one and only Genesis creator.

Christ is saying to his Father that he broke his spirit, mind and body and he eventually died on this earth. During his life, Christ was afraid and prayed to his Father that he would not be so afflicted and have to die. He said to his Father you are the same and you do not die. You live forever. Father, you are the creator/maker of the current earth and the heavens. Even these will be destroyed and yet you will still be the same and live on. And Father, the children of generations after my time here on earth will live within you, (and through me) in your presence. Your Kingdom will never end, amen.

Hebrews 1:1-14 and Col 1:15-20 amongst other scripture, carries on this conversation with Paul's words.

Would you like me to provide a more thorough commentary of each of them to show that Psalms 102:23-27, Hebrews 1:1-14 and Col 1:15:20 all speak the same type of language and say that the Father is the only Genesis creator, and that the Son was given authority to ONLY create and establish the (the Body) Church and all things that support it in heaven, invisible and visible on this earth today?

In Hebrews chapter 1, verses 10-12, God the Father addresses, Jesus Christ and applies the words from Psalm 102:24-27 directly to Jesus as THE ACTUAL CREATOR

There is no escape from this Bible Truth

 

[APAK]

In Hebrews chapter 1, verses 10-12, God the Father addresses, Jesus Christ and applies the words from Psalm 102:24-27 directly to Jesus as THE ACTUAL CREATOR

There is no escape from this Bible Truth

Yes of course there is no escaping Bible truth so why do you persist with your own imaginative private interpretations. You still have zero scripture support that Christ is the creator of the old Genesis creation.
THIS IS NOT what Psalms 102:25 and Hebrews speaks about!

You deliberately sidestepped the meaning of Col 1:15-20 where Paul speaks not to the creation of rocks and the skies. Why did Paul speak to the Colossians, not to do a remembrance of Genesis and then for what purpose...lol You see the Colossians were losing sight of the the purpose of Christ as some were beginning to pray to angels. Paul reinforced that Christ was the head of the Body of the church and was now the creator of things for it and into the future etc...not speaking of Genesis for sure. This thinking of yours is really way off-base.

Look, let me be clear. You are still in denial as you persist in showing zero evidence for your OP.

This OT verse of Psalms 102:25 applies to YHWH, and Paul now copies it and then applies it to Jesus Christ of the NT. Do you understand this critical point.

And now it makes sense, that the action being attributed to Christ also changes. Follow?

Many OT verses testify that ONLY God the Father created the original heavens and the earth. However, both the OT and NT tell us that there will be new heavens and earth after this current one we are inhabiting Rev 21, and it will exist forever. The context reveals CLEARLY that Hebrews 1:10 is speaking to the FUTURE heavens and earth. If we simply continue to read in Hebrews, remembering that the original texts had no chapter breaks, Scripture tells us, “It is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking” (Heb. 2:5). This verse is very clear. The subject of this section of Scripture is not the current heavens and earth, but the future heavens and earth. The reader must remember that the word “beginning” does not have to apply to the absolute beginning of time, but rather the beginning of something the author is referring to. When this verse is referring to the work of the Father, as it is in the OT, it refers to the beginning of the entire heavens and earth. When it is applied to the Son, it refers to the beginning of his work, NOT the beginning of ALL creation, as Hebrews 2:5 makes clear.

If you cannot comprehend this subject now then you are on your own. I have no further input into it, Allow the HS to enlighten you.

I would suggest you take some serious time to absorb this information quietly on your own.

Happy Trails.....until another time then...APAK

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Greek "ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ", is the "very nature of God", as "μορφὴν δούλου" is the "very nature of Man". No one can be "IN the very nature of God", and not be God. In Colossians 2:9, Paul says the same thing, "ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς", "For in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily". This means that Jesus Christ IS FULLY GOD, Who became manifested in the flesh. Which is what Paul also says in the Original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, "θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι"

Hey! Enjoying your posts. :)

My apologies for sone of our fellow members, btw. Some mean well enough, but we are currently outnumbered by heretics at about a 2 - 1 ratio at this time. Just the way it is. But keep up the good work. Not very often that I read posts with some actual substance to them.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And your translation qualifications are ..?

35 years of New Testament and classic Greek

Read my OP and my other threads and show where my Greek is wrong

I'm not interested. I spent enough years in academia to know that scholars often disagree with each other. I believe that BDAG and Burney are right and make more sense than you when all of Scripture is considered.

If you are not interested then why comment on my article?

And what is your level of Greek knowledge

What is it about "I'm not interested" that you don't understand? Again, I am not interested.

God has revealed His truth to me a) in His Word and b) by His Spirit. Read the New Testament for many examples of people who thought that they knew Scripture, yet were wrong in their understanding.

Here was an interesting exchange, LoL.

Qualifications are brought up as an issue until they can be supported, and then suddenly qualifications are irrelevant.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes of course there is no escaping Bible truth so why do you persist with your own imaginative private interpretations. You still have zero scripture support that Christ is the creator of the old Genesis creation.
THIS IS NOT what Psalms 102:25 and Hebrews speaks about!

You deliberately sidestepped the meaning of Col 1:15-20 where Paul speaks not to the creation of rocks and the skies. Why did Paul speak to the Colossians, not to do a remembrance of Genesis and then for what purpose...lol You see the Colossians were losing sight of the the purpose of Christ as some were beginning to pray to angels. Paul reinforced that Christ was the head of the Body of the church and was now the creator of things for it and into the future etc...not speaking of Genesis for sure. This thinking of yours is really way off-base.

Look, let me be clear. You are still in denial as you persist in showing zero evidence for your OP.

This OT verse of Psalms 102:25 applies to YHWH, and Paul now copies it and then applies it to Jesus Christ of the NT. Do you understand this critical point.

And now it makes sense, that the action being attributed to Christ also changes. Follow?

Many OT verses testify that ONLY God the Father created the original heavens and the earth. However, both the OT and NT tell us that there will be new heavens and earth after this current one we are inhabiting Rev 21, and it will exist forever. The context reveals CLEARLY that Hebrews 1:10 is speaking to the FUTURE heavens and earth. If we simply continue to read in Hebrews, remembering that the original texts had no chapter breaks, Scripture tells us, “It is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking” (Heb. 2:5). This verse is very clear. The subject of this section of Scripture is not the current heavens and earth, but the future heavens and earth. The reader must remember that the word “beginning” does not have to apply to the absolute beginning of time, but rather the beginning of something the author is referring to. When this verse is referring to the work of the Father, as it is in the OT, it refers to the beginning of the entire heavens and earth. When it is applied to the Son, it refers to the beginning of his work, NOT the beginning of ALL creation, as Hebrews 2:5 makes clear.

If you cannot comprehend this subject now then you are on your own. I have no further input into it, Allow the HS to enlighten you.

I would suggest you take some serious time to absorb this information quietly on your own.

Happy Trails.....until another time then...APAK

You cannot accept the TRUTH as Taught in the Bible!

It is 100% CLEAR to all who are honest in their reading of the Bible, that Psalm 102:24-27 is about the Creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. And equally CLEAR, that God the Father uses these Words from the Psalm for JESUS CHRIST. Period. The same is for the passage in Colossians 1.

I am not going to waste anymore time with your EXCUSES, believe what you want!

 

[BarneyFife]

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

Gen 1:26 KJV And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Behold]

..we just don't believe that he would be guilty of blasphemy by saying he was "God incarnate" to his fellow Jews. )

Jesus did say that to His fellow Jews. He did absolutely identify Himself as God. which is why they wanted Him dead, among other reasons related to ENVY.
He told them, "before Abraham existed, I AM". John 8

See that? Jesus said to them also...in John 10 .. "i and my Father are ONE".....So there is your "Godhead", translated correctly in a "Authorized Version".

Notice carefully, in the OLD Testament, that God and Moses, and a Burning Bush, had a conversation.
God said...."I AM...that .. I AM".... identifying Himself to Moses.
Jesus said this to his "fellow Jews"...."""Before Abraham existed.....I AM"..

And one more for you...
When Thomas first saw Jesus, after The Lord Jesus THE Christ, was resurrected....Thomas knelt before Jesus and said...."my Lord....and my GOD".

And note.....Jesus didn't correct him......and why should He ?....Why would God manifested in the Flesh.<
= 1 Timothy 3:16, deny His Deity?
He didnt.
You do....so, you have a problem, Aunty Jane.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

John 1:3 which says "by Him" by is dia. It also means through! Both are correct. We should not seek to figure out eternal things with a very finite mind.

Jesus is Cfreator, the Father is Creator and the Spirit is creator.

 

[Taken]

How can the Father and the Son be one and the same Person,

It’s an understanding of the Bigger Picture.
God IS INVISIBLE to mankind.
God IS ABLE to Appear to mankind and At the Sight of God, a man would be incinerated.

God IS ABLE to Appear to mankind COVERED, that mankind would...
Well, NOT BE incinerated to Look upon Him.

And there there is that QUESTION...Really God can “REPRODUCE” a “thing” without a BEGINNING?
No, by definition a thing “Reproduced” Has a beginning.

Jesus was not “REPRODUCED”...Jesus came forth out from God...with a covering the Eyes of Earthly MEN could look up and not become incinerated.

John 16:
[28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

John 1:3 which says "by Him" by is dia. It also means through! Both are correct. We should not seek to figure out eternal things with a very finite mind.

Jesus is Cfreator, the Father is Creator and the Spirit is creator.

The Greek διὰ has a number of meanings, which can be determined by its use in the context. John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, have the meaning WITH, as it does in Galatians 1:1. The Father Created WITH the Son and WITH the Holy Spirit. No "through"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Greek διὰ has a number of meanings, which can be determined by its use in the context. John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, have the meaning WITH, as it does in Galatians 1:1. The Father Created WITH the Son and WITH the Holy Spirit. No "through"

Yes it can also be with. Like all said- all three persons of the God head were involved in Creation.