Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I resent that.
So tell me your understanding of the Trinity.
.

see # 117 for example. Why do you resent what you believe?

the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself

Definition of MODALISM

 

[Cooper]

The Bible is very clear, that there is only One Being God, not three Gods.

The Bible is also very clear, that there are Three Distinct Persons, Who are equally called Yahweh/God, known to us as The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

You say, "Jesus is God's name on earth", this is not true, as Jesus Christ is ONE of the Three Persons in the Godhead. When Jesus Christ was on earth, as the God-Man, there was also God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, at this time, both invisible.

When you say "three names", are you denying that The Three are Distinct Persons?

Why do you deny "Jesus is God's name on earth"?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Why do you deny "Jesus is God's name on earth"?

Jesus Christ is a Person, Who is The God-Man, there is not eveidence in the Bible that Jesus Christ is "God's Name" on earth. As both the Father are Holy Spirit are Distinct from Jesus Christ, yet both are God

 

[Cooper]

see # 117 for example. Why do you resent what you believe?

the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself

Definition of MODALISM

The internet is full of error.

"Modalism states that first existed Yahweh. He was replaced by Jesus and after Jesus ascended into heaven he was replaced by the Holy Spirit. Matt Slick of CARM writes, 'These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another.' That is ridiculous."
.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus Christ is a Person, Who is The God-Man, there is not eveidence in the Bible that Jesus Christ is "God's Name" on earth. As both the Father are Holy Spirit are Distinct from Jesus Christ, yet both are God

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(Matthew 1:21 KJV)
.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(Matthew 1:21 KJV)
.

This is talking about Jesus Christ when He was Conceived in the womb of Mary. This is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, Who are also God, and very much present when Jesus was on earth as distinct Persons.

We will have to start a new thread on this, as it has gone off topic

 

[Taken]

Aunty Jane uses the Watchtower mistranslation.
.

Thank you.

 

[Cooper]

This is talking about Jesus Christ when He was Conceived in the womb of Mary. This is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, Who are also God, and very much present when Jesus was on earth as distinct Persons.

We will have to start a new thread on this, as it has gone off topic

You said Jesus is the I AM. The 'I AM' is God. I am beginning to get very annoyed with your God/man talk and your false accusation of calling me a modalist.
.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is no escaping that fact, that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, does Teach that the Being of God, is THREE Distinct Persons. They have been revealed to us as The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but One God in Three Persons. This is the best and only way for us to understand the God of the Holy Bible. You might not understand or agree with this, but it does not make it wrong.

Since you have not provided a single scripture that directly teaches that Jesus is "God" or that the holy spirit is "God" then I assume that there is no such teaching.
I cannot find "One God in three persons" in any passage of scripture.....all I can find is ONE GOD who has no equals. (Exodus 20:3)
I see that the apostles saw one God who was the Father but their "Lord" Jesus was not God. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) And the holy spirit was not even mentioned. Jesus didn't mention 'him' in John 17:3 either....why? Was knowing the holy spirit not necessary for everlasting life?

The Father has only one name, (Psalm 83:18) but the son has many...the holy spirit has no name, so it is not a person. It is the exercise of God's power directed where Yahweh wants it to go and in due measure.
When Moses was finding the burden of Israel too much to bear on his own, it was suggested that he appoint qualified men to help him carry the load.

Numbers 11:14-17...Jewish Tanakh....Moses said...
"Alone I cannot carry this entire people for it is too hard for me. . . . .

16 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Assemble for Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the people's elders and officers, and you shall take them to the Tent of Meeting, and they shall stand there with You.

17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will increase the spirit that is upon you and bestow it upon them. Then they will bear the burden of the people with you so that you need not bear it alone."

Now read that passage in an English Bible with trinitarian bias and see the difference.....

" I am not able to carry all this people by myself, because it is too burdensome for me.

16 The Lord therefore said to Moses, “Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and have them take their stand there with you. 17 Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take away some of the Spirit who is upon you, and put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it by yourself." (NASB)

There in the Tanakh there is no personality demonstrated in reference to God's spirit where no personal pronouns are used. There is no "who" or "Him"....because God's spirit is his power, not a third person. Yahweh was "one" not "three". (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus Christ is the Eternal God, Yahweh, but not the only Person Who is Yahweh, as there is The Father and The Holy Spirit Who are also Yahweh.

Show me one single scripture where Jesus is ever called "Yahweh". When Jesus walked the earth the Jews had ceased uttering the divine name, so Jesus was never called by his Father's name. In direct defiance of Exodus 3:13-15, the Jews in the first century couldn't even call the Father, "Yahweh".

Exodus 3:13-15...Jewish Tanakh...
"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Who is "the Lord God" in that verse, whose name was to be "mentioned in every generation" forever? " יְהֹוָ֞ה " Yahweh. The meaning of his name is "I Will Be What I Will Be"......not "I AM". And if the Jews had retained God's name as they were instructed, then no trinity could ever have been introduced because there would never have been confusion over the title "Lord", which some assume is an exclusive name for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When Jesus Christ became Incarnate, He remained fully God, but took upon Himself the "nature" of humans, out of the Virgin Mary, and became the God-Man, fully God and fully Man, except for any sin. Jesus is Mary's Son, in respect to His "human nature" being derived from her, and Born naturally as other children are.

Show me where it says that God became incarnate, "fully God and fully man"...how is that even possible?
God is immortal and cannot die. Jesus had to be born as a mortal human in order to sacrifice his life.
If he was mortal he was not God....if he was immortal he could not die....the trinitarian argument is very flawed.

....John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh", not that God himself became flesh. The Word was "with God" "in the beginning".....how can an immortal God have a beginning? And how can one part of God be "with" himself? How can one part of God pray to his equal other? Or know things that the other parts of himself don't know? If they can be in different places at different times and act independently, how can they be one God? It is pure nonsense.
There are so many holes in the trinity that most people give up trying to explain it.
If it was a clear Bible teaching it would be clearly stated....but it isn't. This leaves people like yourself quoting screeds of scripture but without a single direct statement of the fact you are trying to prove. It has to be read between the lines somehow.

The Bible is very clear, that there is only One Being God, not three Gods.

And yet the Roman Catholic church, which formulated the doctrine of the trinity over three hundred years after Christ's death, claims three gods. "God the Father, "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit".....that is polytheism...and to claim three gods in one head is just trying to dodge the accusation. How this ever got to be a foundational doctrine in Christianity is mind boggling because it is blasphemous. A clear breach of the first Commandment.

The Bible is also very clear, that there are Three Distinct Persons, Who are equally called Yahweh/God, known to us as The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

You keep saying that, and yet there is not one scripture that say so.....go figure.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You said Jesus is the I AM. The I AM being the One God. I am beginning to get very annoyed with your God/man talk and your false accusation of calling me a modalist.
.

you are very annoyed because you cannot understand the Bible's Teaching on the Holy Trinity. Ask God the Holy Spirit to help you understand.

 

[Cooper]

you are very annoyed because you cannot understand the Bible's Teaching on the Holy Trinity. Ask God the Holy Spirit to help you understand.

For crying out loud! Wash your mouth out will you. I am trying to explain it to someone whose understanding is incomplete.
.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And yet the Roman Catholic church, which formulated the doctrine of the trinity over three hundred years after Christ's death, claims three gods. "God the Father, "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit".....that is polytheism...and to claim three gods in one head is just trying to dodge the accusation. How this ever got to be a foundational doctrine in Christianity is mind boggling because it is blasphemous. A clear breach of the first Commandment.

firstly, this is error that has been spread by opponents to the Bible's Teaching that God is Trinity.

The earliest teaching in detail on the Holy Trinity, is found in the Letter by Tertullian, (who lived between AD 155-220), called, Adversus Praxean, which was to Praxean, who denied the distinction of Persons in the Holy Trinity, which he also rejected.

Here is what Tertullian says in chapter 22, on John 10:30

I am and my Father are one. Here, then, they take their stand, too infatuated, nay, too blind, to see in the first place that there is in this passage an intimation of Two Beings — I and my Father; then that there is a plural predicate, are, inapplicable to one person only; and lastly, that (the predicate terminates in an abstract, not a personal noun)— we are one thing Unum, not one person Unus. For if He had said one Person, He might have rendered some assistance to their opinion. Unus, no doubt, indicates the singular number; but (here we have a case where) Two are still the subject in the masculine gender. He accordingly says Unum, a neuter term, which does not imply singularity of number, but unity of essence, likeness, conjunction, affection on the Father's part, who loves the Son, and submission on the Son's, who obeys the Father's will. When He says, I and my Father are one in essence— Unum— He shows that there are Two, whom He puts on an equality and unites in one.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

For crying out loud! Wash your mouth out will you. I am trying to explain it to someone whose understanding is incomplete.
.

start a thread explaining in as much detail as you can, exactly what you believe on the God of the Bible!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Since you have not provided a single scripture that directly teaches that Jesus is "God" or that the holy spirit is "God" then I assume that there is no such teaching.
I cannot find "One God in three persons" in any passage of scripture.....all I can find is ONE GOD who has no equals. (Exodus 20:3)
I see that the apostles saw one God who was the Father but their "Lord" Jesus was not God. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) And the holy spirit was not even mentioned. Jesus didn't mention 'him' in John 17:3 either....why? Was knowing the holy spirit not necessary for everlasting life?

The Father has only one name, (Psalm 83:18) but the son has many...the holy spirit has no name, so it is not a person. It is the exercise of God's power directed where Yahweh wants it to go and in due measure.
When Moses was finding the burden of Israel too much to bear on his own, it was suggested that he appoint qualified men to help him carry the load.

did you read this I posted last year?

Isaiah 48 and The Holy Trinity

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You keep saying that, and yet there is not one scripture that say so.....go figure.

you are not interested in knowing...

 

[Cooper]

start a thread explaining in as much detail as you can, exactly what you believe on the God of the Bible!

I do not need the arguments, nor am I going to stand before an inquisition. My signature has everything you need and it is all scriptural. I'm looking for a nice spirit filled Pentecostal forum which is where I belong. Never mind Catholics with their Mary and idol worship plus JW'S, I don't need any of that.
.

 

[Taken]

I would only ever use the KJV as a last resort. The KJV and its derivatives are the only translations that use that word...."godhead".

Thanks for sharing which Biblical Version you reject. However that does not answer my question of what WHAT Biblical Version of Scripture you HAVE CHOSEN to use.

"Theotēs" is translated as "divine nature" in many other Bibles, so we have no issue with Christ's divine nature, nor with his divine authority....we just don't believe that he would be guilty of blasphemy by saying he was "God incarnate" to his fellow Jews. They wanted to stone him for claiming to be God's son! (John 10:31-36)

There is no such thing as a "godhead" because there is no such thing as a trinity. There is not one direct statement from either God (Yahweh) or his son (Jesus Christ) that they share equality in any way.....or that there are three gods in one head. Please provide one....I didn't see a single one from God or Christ in your many quotations.

Since you have expressly REJECTED the Biblical Version of Scripture I quoted, and FAILED to reveal the Biblical Version YOU USE....
THERE is NOTHING TO COMPARE of one Version to another Version.

You literally have to force the idea into the scriptures you use to promote it. I don't have to be talked into a trinity because I plainly see that Christ never taught it, and neither did his apostles. They knew who their God was....and it wasn't Jesus. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

No. I literally identified the Biblical Version from which I quoted.
You on the other hand HAVE NOT identified the Biblical Version, but instead, state your opinions and falsely claim you are being Forced to Believe something NOT STATED in your mysterious UNIDENTIFIED Biblical version!

So WHAT IS your Biblical Version CALLED?
WHO Wrote your Biblical Version?
WHEN was your Biblical Version written and published?
IF you believe YOUR Biblical Version is SO TRUSTWORTHY...
WHY keep it Secret?

 

[Taken]

I do not need the arguments, nor am I going to stand before an inquisition. I'm looking for a nice spirit filled Pentecostal forum which is where I belong. Never mind Catholics with their Mary and idol worship plus JW'S, I don't need any of that.
.

Can Agree with that ^.

The Creator is the Word, and Jesus is the Creator's name on earth. John 1:14 He is God with us.

Agree.

"God is one" Matthew 1:23 and His glory is hidden from our sight. John 14:9.

Somewhat Disagree.
God is hidden from our SIGHT. Gods Glory God GIVES to no one.
However Gods GLORY IS revealed, IS seen....By and Through what is a RESULT which called; REFLECTION.
IOW...
We can not VISIBLY SEE Gods Glory ... But we CAN SEE the RESULTS of WHAT Gods Glory SHINES UPON.

He came among us in the image of man (Genesis 18), and in the New Testament as Jesus Christ the Son of Mary.

Agree.

He is with us in heaven and on earth, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8 Micah 5:2

Agree.

Jesus the I AM and Saviour of the world, is "God with us." Colossians 1:16. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Agree

From the beginning, Adam proved OSAS false. Isaiah 59:2 Psalms 66:18 John 9:31

Disagree.

In the beginning. Adam was Created from Dust, Made alive with a soul, PUT in the Garden and THEN:
* Adam WAS OFFERED...Adam WAS TOLD....Which trees TO EAT FROM. Adam expressly DID NOT Eat from the Trees he was Offered OR Told to Eat from...
* “IF” Adam had exercised his own freewill and made the choice TO EAT, from the TREE OF LIFE...(not hidden)...but smack dab in the MIDST...the MIDDLE of the Garden.......He would have BODILY and SOUL lived Forever.

Gen 1:
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen.2
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

(Many trees.....Good for FOOD, to sustain Adams Bodily Life,
ONE TREE to sustain Adams WHOLE LIFE.
And ONE tree of good AND EVIL, God commanded to NOT eat thereof).

Nothing HAS CHANGED...
* Many trees & herb PLANTS, can sustain a mans bodily life.
* ONLY the TREE OF LIFE sustains a mans WHOLE Life.
* The Knowledge of good and evil has been released in the whole world...
everyone in the whole world has Eaten of that tree. And everyone in the whole world HAS the individual Freewill to Eat and Swallow the good or take in the evil and Swallow it or SPIT IT OUT.
* 4,000 years later AFTER Adams creation, God in Heaven SENT forth out of Gods Mouth, His Word, in the likeness as a manKIND of thing, into the World, to Speak, Teach, Preach, Offer ALL of mankind....
*** TO TASTE the TREE OF LIFE...
~ Freely decide IF they LIKE it...
~ Freely choose to EAT it....
~ or Freely choose to SPIT IT OUT.

Scripture is expressly detailed that TASTING is not EATING.
Any man can TASTE and SPIT IT OUT.
....^^ That IS NOT EATING...Nor is THAT the WAY to Receive Salvation.
Any man can TASTE and EAT.
...^^ That IS EATING...and THAT IS the WAY to Receive Salvation.
*** AND having RECEIVED Salvation “IS” the Permanent WAY to RECEIVE FOREVER LIFE with the Lord God Almighty...
It is the SAME “EATING” that was TOLD and OFFERED Adam.
It is the SAME “EATING” that (while IN the Garden) Adam refused to choose.

God confronted Adam. Adam spoke the truth of what he had freely chosen to do. God covered Adams FLESH BODILY SHAME, with skins of animals, which by default, reveals an animals BLOOD was shed for Adam bodily flesh choice.

God pronounced Adams flesh consequence...departure from the Garden WHERE GOD WAS, thus by default, Adams flesh body was Separated from God, yet the Same of his flesh covered.
Even ON ADAMS departure being sent out of the Garden....guess what Adam PASS BY??? AND STILL did not pause and freely TAKE???


Gen 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


We know the facts...where Adam was created, where Adam was put, what Adam was told, what Adam was offered, what Adam chose, what God did, what Adam did not choose, what God did.
Outside of the Garden how long Adam bodily lived, that Adam could NOT return to the Garden and Eat of the Tree of Life, that Adam believed in God on the day his body died, that Adam received Salvation on the day Adams body died.....

** Nothing has changed. Men shall STILL receive SALVATION, IF they believe in God ON the DAY their physical body DIES.

** Nothing has changed. Men shall RECEIVE SALVATION, IF at ANY time, during their physical bodily Life, THEY CHOOSE to EAT Gods Offering, already given all men, that man SHALL BE SAVED unto ETERNAL LIFE, Right THEN BEFORE his physical bodily death.

OSAS...is an expression ... that ONLY APPLIES to an individual WHO HAS “EATEN”....
OSAS...DOES NOT APPLY to a man who HAS or IS “TASTING”.

It is men who DO NOT UNDERSTAND the DIFFERENCE, between “tasting” and “eating”....who run to a Scripture of a man who has “tasted”, and claim...that man was SAVED....and THEN...lost his salvation...which is False.
Such a man “LOST” his Salvation .... for SPITTING OUT what he “tasted”.

* Adam Lost having his Salvation for the duration of his Bodily Life for choosing to NOT have EATEN of the Tree of Life.
* Adam Gained his Salvation on the day of his bodily death, FOR believing in God on the day of his bodily death.
* Men who TASTE of the Tree of Life, and spit it out, Lose their gift of Salvation.
* Men who NEVER Eat of the Tree of Life, will be saved on the day they bodily die “IF” (the Defining CAVEAT WHEN) they believe on the day they bodily die.
* Men who “HAVE EATEN” (the Defining CAVEAT of never separated from God) of the Tree of Life, ARE SAVED on THAT DAY, ONCE and forever Never Separated from God.

The warnings against backsliding are given to the believer. The unbeliever cannot backslide.

Yes...those WARNINGS are given to the generic term “believers”.
No....those WARNINGS are NOT given to the Precise term “Convert-ED”.

The WARNING AGAINST backsliding is EXPRESSLY given to men WHO HAVE TASTED of the Tree of Life.
They CAN backslide. They CAN spit out what they have TASTED.
They are completely in Control of their own Freewill to EAT what they have TASTED...or SPIT IT OUT.
(And YES, there are many Warnings about the Consequence of SPITTING IT OUT......)
* The most detrimental Warning IS......WITHOUT THE TASTE in ones mouth...
THEY HAVE NOT AN OPTION to EAT of the Tree of Life...
* The Warning ALSO reveals...all of their power to Believe, is limited to the individual’s own Power....
UNLIKE all the power to BELIEVE AND REMAIN IN BELIEF FOREVER... IS given a man WHO HAS EATEN...and IT IS the POWER OF GOD “IN” THE MAN that KEEPS that man remaining “IN” Belief forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Cooper]

Can Agree with that ^.



Agree.



Somewhat Disagree.
God is hidden from our SIGHT. Gods Glory God GIVES to no one.
However Gods GLORY IS revealed, IS seen....By and Through what is a RESULT which called; REFLECTION.
IOW...
We can not VISIBLY SEE Gods Glory ... But we CAN SEE the RESULTS of WHAT Gods Glory SHINES UPON.



Agree.



Agree.



Agree



Disagree.

In the beginning. Adam was Created from Dust, Made alive with a soul, PUT in the Garden and THEN:
* Adam WAS OFFERED...Adam WAS TOLD....Which trees TO EAT FROM. Adam expressly DID NOT Eat from the Trees he was Offered OR Told to Eat from...
* “IF” Adam had exercised his own freewill and made the choice TO EAT, from the TREE OF LIFE...(not hidden)...but smack dab in the MIDST...the MIDDLE of the Garden.......He would have BODILY and SOUL lived Forever.

Gen 1:
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen.2
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

(Many trees.....Good for FOOD, to sustain Adams Bodily Life,
ONE TREE to sustain Adams WHOLE LIFE.
And ONE tree of good AND EVIL, God commanded to NOT eat thereof).

Nothing HAS CHANGED...
* Many trees & herb PLANTS, can sustain a mans bodily life.
* ONLY the TREE OF LIFE sustains a mans WHOLE Life.
* The Knowledge of good and evil has been released in the whole world...
everyone in the whole world has Eaten of that tree. And everyone in the whole world HAS the individual Freewill to Eat and Swallow the good or take in the evil and Swallow it or SPIT IT OUT.
* 4,000 years later AFTER Adams creation, God in Heaven SENT forth out of Gods Mouth, His Word, in the likeness as a manKIND of thing, into the World, to Speak, Teach, Preach, Offer ALL of mankind....
*** TO TASTE the TREE OF LIFE...
~ Freely decide IF they LIKE it...
~ Freely choose to EAT it....
~ or Freely choose to SPIT IT OUT.

Scripture is expressly detailed that TASTING is not EATING.
Any man can TASTE and SPIT IT OUT.
....^^ That IS NOT EATING...Nor is THAT the WAY to Receive Salvation.
Any man can TASTE and EAT.
...^^ That IS EATING...and THAT IS the WAY to Receive Salvation.
*** AND having RECEIVED Salvation “IS” the Permanent WAY to RECEIVE FOREVER LIFE with the Lord God Almighty...
It is the SAME “EATING” that was TOLD and OFFERED Adam.
It is the SAME “EATING” that (while IN the Garden) Adam refused to choose.

God confronted Adam. Adam spoke the truth of what he had freely chosen to do. God covered Adams FLESH BODILY SHAME, with skins of animals, which by default, reveals an animals BLOOD was shed for Adam bodily flesh choice.

God pronounced Adams flesh consequence...departure from the Garden WHERE GOD WAS, thus by default, Adams flesh body was Separated from God, yet the Same of his flesh covered.
Even ON ADAMS departure being sent out of the Garden....guess what Adam PASS BY??? AND STILL did not pause and freely TAKE???


Gen 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


We know the facts...where Adam was created, where Adam was put, what Adam was told, what Adam was offered, what Adam chose, what God did, what Adam did not choose, what God did.
Outside of the Garden how long Adam bodily lived, that Adam could NOT return to the Garden and Eat of the Tree of Life, that Adam believed in God on the day his body died, that Adam received Salvation on the day Adams body died.....

** Nothing has changed. Men shall STILL receive SALVATION, IF they believe in God ON the DAY their physical body DIES.

** Nothing has changed. Men shall RECEIVE SALVATION, IF at ANY time, during their physical bodily Life, THEY CHOOSE to EAT Gods Offering, already given all men, that man SHALL BE SAVED unto ETERNAL LIFE, Right THEN BEFORE his physical bodily death.

OSAS...is an expression ... that ONLY APPLIES to an individual WHO HAS “EATEN”....
OSAS...DOES NOT APPLY to a man who HAS or IS “TASTING”.

It is men who DO NOT UNDERSTAND the DIFFERENCE, between “tasting” and “eating”....who run to a Scripture of a man who has “tasted”, and claim...that man was SAVED....and THEN...lost his salvation...which is False.
Such a man “LOST” his Salvation .... for SPITTING OUT what he “tasted”.

* Adam Lost having his Salvation for the duration of his Bodily Life for choosing to NOT have EATEN of the Tree of Life.
* Adam Gained his Salvation on the day of his bodily death, FOR believing in God on the day of his bodily death.
* Men who TASTE of the Tree of Life, and spit it out, Lose their gift of Salvation.
* Men who NEVER Eat of the Tree of Life, will be saved on the day they bodily die “IF” (the Defining CAVEAT WHEN) they believe on the day they bodily die.
* Men who “HAVE EATEN” (the Defining CAVEAT of never separated from God) of the Tree of Life, ARE SAVED on THAT DAY, ONCE and forever Never Separated from God.



Yes...those WARNINGS are given to the generic term “believers”.
No....those WARNINGS are NOT given to the Precise term “Convert-ED”.

The WARNING AGAINST backsliding is EXPRESSLY given to men WHO HAVE TASTED of the Tree of Life.
They CAN backslide. They CAN spit out what they have TASTED.
They are completely in Control of their own Freewill to EAT what they have TASTED...or SPIT IT OUT.
(And YES, there are many Warnings about the Consequence of SPITTING IT OUT......)
* The most detrimental Warning IS......WITHOUT THE TASTE in ones mouth...
THEY HAVE NOT AN OPTION to EAT of the Tree of Life...
* The Warning ALSO reveals...all of their power to Believe, is limited to the individual’s own Power....
UNLIKE all the power to BELIEVE AND REMAIN IN BELIEF FOREVER... IS given a man WHO HAS EATEN...and IT IS the POWER OF GOD “IN” THE MAN that KEEPS that man remaining “IN” Belief forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

Considering it is my signature where space is limited, it is a fair summery. It is God's face that cannot be seen, I need to change that or delete it.

Apart from that, the Bible clearly tells us the apostate is lost eternally.

 

[APAK]

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

I really do not think you have answered your question of your thread yet, Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

I would suggest you begin again by doing a commentary of Col 1:15-20 first. It is a very logical point of departure. Your first two posts are infused with parts of other scripture and mixed ideas, steered along as your discussion to the result you desire.

For starters, do you think that Paul in Col 1:15-20 is speaking to the Genesis creation by the Father where he manipulated the elements of the earth, rocks, seas, and created plant life etc., or is it something else? Is Paul speaking to Christ creating the seas or something else? Is Paul speaking of ALL things created or a specific subset of things?

Thanks

APAK