Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,022
3,863
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
None of your arguments hold up when examined by FACTS!
In your opinion that may be the case.....I could say the same back to you.....but as I said, your opinion counts for nothing here....you are just an anonymous poster on an internet forum. You can present as many FACTS as you like, but who says you have to be right just because you think so?
Do you understand that you have no weight here?

I don't believe any of your arguments are valid.....but that is just my personal opinion.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
In your opinion that may be the case.....I could say the same back to you.....but as I said, your opinion counts for nothing here....you are just an anonymous poster on an internet forum. You can present as many FACTS as you like, but who says you have to be right just because you think so?
Do you understand that you have no weight here?

I don't believe any of your arguments are valid.....but that is just my personal opinion.


then why can't you on here disprove what I say? You attempt to do so with your theology, but the Bible is actually against what you say!
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
867
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.
It matters not if things were created through him or by him. Either way, Jesus pre-existed creation.

He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (John 1:10 KJV)

For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him, all things consist. (Colossians 1:16-17 KJV)

(1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV) tell us all things are of the Father and all things are by the Son, which suggests Father and Son are one and the same.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
.
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,367
14,816
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 1:1 is clear the "the Word" and "the God" are DISTINCT Persons. We have the Greek preposition πρὸς, as in "WITH God", which shows that there is a DISTINCTION between the Two. It also says in this verse, "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος", which is, "and the Word was God". In verse 3 it says, "ALL THINGS, that is THE UNIVERSE, was Created BY, or better WITH Him, Jesus Christ, as the CREATOR.

The use of the plural in places like Genesis 1:26, is clear that the Godhead (Romans 1:20), is not "Unitarian". John 10:30 proves this, as here we have Jesus Christ and the Father, as "ἐσμεν", in the masculine plural, WE ARE, and then the neuter singular "ἕν", one thing, as in One in Authority and Power, as the context, verses 28-30 clearly says.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what you are trying to prove with your Greek Speak.

God is ONE God, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent.
(His all presence, all knowing, all power IS always IN and WITH Himself.)
(His all presence, all knowing, all power IS NOT always IN or WITH man.)

What God is DISTINCTLY “called”....Name, Title, Description...at ANY given Time, DOES NOT CHANGE God.

What God is DISTINCTLY “called”...Name, Title, Description...at ANY given
Time, is FOR mankind's benefit.
Mankind’s benefit to bit by bit, step by step (TIME), to LEARN ABOUT God.

God IS “outside of TIME”...No Beginning. No Ending.
Man IS “within Time”....Man HAS a Time Constraint.
Mans Time Constraint, Begins with his own AWARENESS, that he exists, he hears, he sees, he touches, feels, he smells, he tastes, he babbles, he can not stand, he stands, he walks, he gets hungry, he eats, he gets tired, he sleeps, he wonders, he learns, he picks and chooses, he accepts, he rejects, he agrees, he denies...on and on....constantly man IS CHANGING.

NOT one thing does a man think or do, IS news to God.
Nearly Everything a man thinks, does, IS news to the man.

What God created AND made, IS Done, IS Finished. Gen 2:3
God IS IN His Kingdom, RESTING, Above His Creations (Above Heaven, Above Earth, Above Celestials, Above Terrestrials)....

When God SENDS mankind Gods Word and/or Gods Power ...
God NOTIFIES mankind
that Word, that Power, IS DISTANTLY...
By, Through, Of.......God.

When God SENDS mankind Gods Word and/or Gods Power...
God NOTIFIES mankind
“IF” Gods Word, Gods Power, IS DISTINCTLY
“WITH” the man.........and / or ...........”IN” the man.


When God SENDS mankind Gods Word and/or Gods Power...
God Power, Gods Word.....Remains IN and WITH God.

When God SENDS mankind Gods Word and/or Gods Power...

God NOTIFIES mankind “EXACTLY” what it means FOR Gods Word and/or Gods Power... to be WITH and/or IN a man....and thereafter ‘WHAT’ that man shall be “called”.

How
God SENDS mankind Gods Word and/or Gods Power...

IS REVEALED.... it is ALWAYS...By, Through, Of......THAT WHICH SERVES GOD.


*** So who or what SERVES God?
Does God serve God? Yes
Does Gods power serve God? Yes
Does Gods word serve God? Yes
Do created celestials serve God? Yes
Do created mankind terrestrials serve God? Yes

*** It is the HOW (in what MANNER), a “particular who or what” which Serves God, is the Lesson.
Gods manner, Gods power, Gods word...Always Serves God in Good and Righteousness.
Created celestials....have Freewill, to choose their MANNER of Service.
Created man terrestrials..have Freewill, to choose their MANNER of Service.

The Lord God Almighty IS ONE Lord God Almighty....ONE GOD...
Creator and Maker of ALL things.

(Regardless of WHAT He is called or doing at any given TIME-frame).

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen 5:
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,367
14,816
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....

What Bible version do you use?

Acts: 17:29 KJV
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20 KJV
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 KJV
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
867
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
What Bible version do you use?

Acts: 17:29 KJV
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20 KJV
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 KJV
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Aunty Jane uses the Watchtower mistranslation.
.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
13,088
6,201
113
www.FinishingTheMystery.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you speak of "Oneness", are you referring to the "Godhead" as being "Unipersonal"?
Before answering...let me just say in preface, that it was God who began revelation of Himself as One, and then Christ who prayed for Oneness again, not in spite of his having been manifest as a son of man and sending forth the Holy Spirit which we now refer to as the Godhead or Trinity, but that all should be One in the end.

I, therefore, having heard of each as separate, but also His plan for us who are His bride to become One in marriage as has been the practice and a foreshadowing of becoming One, and also His prayer and His own returning to the Father as One and that we too should also be One, yes, I do continue in that same trajectory.

As for giving that plan of God another name or calling that Oneness "Unipersonal", and since names have even become a distraction that some have not returned from after their intended knowledge has been made know in the elementary manner of children--no, I would not call it "Unipersonal." If God has called His Son His right hand, or His spirit Holy, certainly men are inclined to refer to their own right hand as one with their own body, and yet also as a completely separate person and a helper--but this is not so with God, except by image, that image of Himself that He created in us for revelation, that we might know Him. But do not misunderstand His confusion of all language which He did at Babel, and His describing Himself as "Our" to be anything or anyone divided, for even we are made to be One body, that body of Christ.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,365
8,140
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

.

God is the Spirit of Creation, and Jesus the Pre-incarnate WORD, is the WORD of Creation.

Creation is created by the Holy Spirit, that is spoken as the WORD of Creation.

Look at John 1:10.....It says that Jesus made the world.....made the EARTH.

Look at Colossians 1:16.......It says that Jesus made everything, and holds it all up right now, by His power.

YET< that is the pre-incarnate Jesus...as the WORD....who was with God and Is God. John 1.

That is this JESUS.....>"God said let us make man in OUR Image".

See that ''OUR""?
That is God the Father, and the WORD of God, who is Jesus, later manifested as "God in the Flesh".... 1 Timothy 3:16...as the SON of God.


This is why Thomas said to Jesus, upon seeing Him RESURRECTED....>"my Lord, and my GOD"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cooper

Desire Of All Nations

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2021
748
408
63
Troy
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read again slowly!! Jesus says those that see Me are seeing the Father!!
Jesus said=="""he that hath seen me hath seen the Father""" John 14:9
Jesus showed the disciples what the Father looked like through His own example. John clearly stated in chapter 1 of his gospel account that no one in the history of the human race has ever seen the Father or heard His voice. If Jesus was the same Person as the Father, He wouldn't have to spend 3 years declaring the Father's existence to anybody.
There is clear distinction between the Persons in the Godhead (θειότης, Divine Nature, Romans 1:20), as can be seen from verses like John 1:1, where "the Word", Who is Jesus Christ, is said to be "πρὸς God", that is, "near to", which is the same as "κόλπος" (Bosom) in verse 18, where there are Two distinct Persons Who are equally God.

In John 15:26, Jesus says, "“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me". Here the word "from", is "παρὰ", which is "along side", the Father. Jesus is the Sender here, and He sends the Holy Spirit Who is "at the side of" the Father. Clear distinction of Persons.
Jesus referring to the Holy Spirit as "He" doesn't automatically mean the Holy Spirit is an actual Person. People assign gender to things that are not actually a person all the time like cars, ships, or entire nations, and no one is ever confused into believing that they are people. Proverbs often refers to wisdom as "she" or "her", so does that mean we're supposed to believe wisdom is actually a person as well?
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,365
8,140
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
J People assign gender?

I dont use the Greek Texts, as the bible is the word of God.... but if you want to study it out in the Koine Greek, you'll find that the gender of the Holy Spirit is "male".

Also, Adam is made in the Image of God......"male".
EVE is taken out of Adam.
EVE is made from ADAM who is a male.

We become a SON of God.....when we are Spiritually born again as a "new creation".
Jesus is the only begotten SON.
All Angels ARE MALES.

The head of the woman is the MAN. 1 Corinthians 11:3
The head of the Church is a Male....= Christ the Lord
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus showed the disciples what the Father looked like through His own example. John clearly stated in chapter 1 of his gospel account that no one in the history of the human race has ever seen the Father or heard His voice. If Jesus was the same Person as the Father, He wouldn't have to spend 3 years declaring the Father's existence to anybody.
Jesus referring to the Holy Spirit as "He" doesn't automatically mean the Holy Spirit is an actual Person. People assign gender to things that are not actually a person all the time like cars, ships, or entire nations, and no one is ever confused into believing that they are people. Proverbs often refers to wisdom as "she" or "her", so does that mean we're supposed to believe wisdom is actually a person as well?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses and The Holy Spirit
 
Last edited:

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
God is the Spirit of Creation, and Jesus the Pre-incarnate WORD, is the WORD of Creation.

Creation is created by the Holy Spirit, that is spoken as the WORD of Creation.

Look at John 1:10.....It says that Jesus made the world.....made the EARTH.

Look at Colossians 1:16.......It says that Jesus made everything, and holds it all up right now, by His power.

YET< that is the pre-incarnate Jesus...as the WORD....who was with God and Is God. John 1.

That is this JESUS.....>"God said let us make man in OUR Image".

See that ''OUR""?
That is God the Father, and the WORD of God, who is Jesus, later manifested as "God in the Flesh".... 1 Timothy 3:16...as the SON of God.


This is why Thomas said to Jesus, upon seeing Him RESURRECTED....>"my Lord, and my GOD"

Hi, what exactly are you trying to say here?
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Before answering...let me just say in preface, that it was God who began revelation of Himself as One, and then Christ who prayed for Oneness again, not in spite of his having been manifest as a son of man and sending forth the Holy Spirit which we now refer to as the Godhead or Trinity, but that all should be One in the end.

I, therefore, having heard of each as separate, but also His plan for us who are His bride to become One in marriage as has been the practice and a foreshadowing of becoming One, and also His prayer and His own returning to the Father as One and that we too should also be One, yes, I do continue in that same trajectory.

As for giving that plan of God another name or calling that Oneness "Unipersonal", and since names have even become a distraction that some have not returned from after their intended knowledge has been made know in the elementary manner of children--no, I would not call it "Unipersonal." If God has called His Son His right hand, or His spirit Holy, certainly men are inclined to refer to their own right hand as one with their own body, and yet also as a completely separate person and a helper--but this is not so with God, except by image, that image of Himself that He created in us for revelation, that we might know Him. But do not misunderstand His confusion of all language which He did at Babel, and His describing Himself as "Our" to be anything or anyone divided, for even we are made to be One body, that body of Christ.

do you believe that the God of the Bible is Trinity?
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
20,365
8,140
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
""""""But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, HE shall testify of me""""
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I dont use the Greek Texts, as the bible is the word of God.... but if you want to study it out in the Koine Greek, you'll find that the gender of the Holy Spirit is "male".

Also, Adam is made in the Image of God......"male".
EVE is taken out of Adam.
EVE is made from ADAM who is a male.

We become a SON of God.....when we are Spiritually born again as a "new creation".
Jesus is the only begotten SON.
All Angels ARE MALES.

The head of the woman is the MAN. 1 Corinthians 11:3
The head of the Church is a Male....= Christ the Lord

The Jehovah’s Witnesses and The Holy Spirit
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,022
3,863
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What Bible version do you use?

Acts: 17:29 KJV
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20 KJV
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 KJV
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I would only ever use the KJV as a last resort. The KJV and its derivatives are the only translations that use that word...."godhead".
"Theotēs" is translated as "divine nature" in many other Bibles, so we have no issue with Christ's divine nature, nor with his divine authority....we just don't believe that he would be guilty of blasphemy by saying he was "God incarnate" to his fellow Jews. They wanted to stone him for claiming to be God's son! (John 10:31-36)

There is no such thing as a "godhead" because there is no such thing as a trinity. There is not one direct statement from either God (Yahweh) or his son (Jesus Christ) that they share equality in any way.....or that there are three gods in one head. Please provide one....I didn't see a single one from God or Christ in your many quotations.

You literally have to force the idea into the scriptures you use to promote it. I don't have to be talked into a trinity because I plainly see that Christ never taught it, and neither did his apostles. They knew who their God was....and it wasn't Jesus. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,871
871
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
ByGraceThroughFaith said:
do you believe that the God of the Bible is Trinity?
ScottA said:
But having that, I am not saying I do not prescribe to the Trinity--I do...and then some.

Author of "Walking Like Einstein."

I this addressed to me?