Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Of course not. I don't see your point unless you're claiming to be God.

Point is that I said the Greek sources that you quoted, are wrong in what they have suggested for Revelation 3:14. You then ask about my Greek knowledge, which I have told you. You still think that the Lexicon and person quoted in it are right, and say that you are not interested? Your reasoning makes me wonder? Just because a Greek authority says something, does not make it correct. The KJV Bible is wrong in the way it translates both Hebrew and Greek grammar into English. Just because they had the best scholars on their translating teams, does not mean that they were perfect. Grammar is grammar, and when wrong it is wrong!

 

[Jim B]

Jesus answered them, “You are deceived, because you don’t know the scriptures or the power of God."

I agree that just because a Greek authority says something, does not make it correct. Yet you claim to be a Greek authority!

BTW, I also agree that the KJV Bible is wrong in the way it translates both Hebrew and Greek grammar into English. Just because they had the best scholars on their translating teams, does not mean that they were perfect. Grammar is grammar, and when wrong it is wrong! I don't use the "KJV Bible" (redundancy) because it is so open to reinterpretation.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I agree that just because a Greek authority says something, does not make it correct

indeed :)

 

[Aunty Jane]

In 1 Corinthians 10:9, Paul writes, "Nor let us tempt the Christ (τον χριστον), as some of them also tempted Him and were destroyed by serpents"

It is very clear that these words are from Numbers 21:6, "And Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people. And many people of Israel died"

Paul has no problems with saying that Yahweh in Numbers Who sent the serpents to bite those rebelled again Him, is Jesus Christ. Paul could never had said this, if Jesus Christ IS not YHWH.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5....for context....what is Paul saying here?
"For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2 and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased; for their dead bodies were spread out in the wilderness." (NASB)

He is making a comparison and applying it to the Christians so that they would not make the same mistakes as their Jewish forefathers did....

He went on to say...
"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall."

In context what is Paul referring to in verse 9? The "Lord" referred to in this verse is clearly Yahweh. I am always amused by those who take that title to mean only one person, when in the scriptures this title is applied to various ones.....including the "LORD" (Yahweh) whose name the Jews had ceased to utter, as well as the "Lord" Jesus Christ. Even Sarah addressed Abraham, her husband, as "lord". (1 Peter 3:6)
The angel who delivered the Revelation to John was addressed as "lord" (Revelation 7:13-14)
The jailer who was going to do away with himself addressed the apostles as "Lords" or "Sirs" (kyrios)...it is simply a title of respect, but Christendom treats it like a name, as if it means only Yahweh.....it doesn't. It is an address of respect like "Sir"...look it up.

The British have "Lords" by title and even a "House of Lords"....not one of them is assumed to be God or his equal. It is a title which indicates authority.....nothing more.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Emphatic Diaglott version of the New Testament that was issued by the Jehovah's Witnesses, has the Greek text, "τον χριστον", and the literal English under it, "the Anointed". The cross reference in the footnote, is to the passage in Numbers!

I am aware that this reading has been corrupted to lead "τὸν κύριον (Lord)", which is from the 4th century; and "τὸν θεόν (God)", which is from the 5th century. The reading "τον χριστον", is from about 175–225! Even the heretic Origen knew of this reading. the New Testament by the Unitarian Dr George Noyne, reads "Nor let us tempt Christ"!

You can be aware of a lot of things that humans write...it doesn't mean that what you read is true. Opinions are a dime a dozen...even yours....and mine.

Allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves is always a good idea.....and since there is no scripture that contradicts itself, it usually provides ample evidence for how it should be understood if you know your Bible, especially under the direction of the holy spirit. It is God's inspired word after all....and we have the assurance from Jesus himself that "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” (John 6:65) What of those for whom it is not granted? Will God prevent us from making the biggest mistake of our lives? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Your idea of a "heretic" or a "cult" might not be God's view of things......Jesus himself could have been accused of being a cult leader and his teachings deemed "heretical" to the Jewish faith of the day......we know in hindsight who the heretics were, just as we can see the evidence in history as to whom the foretold apostate church, (and all who adopted her erroneous teachings) proved to be. Jesus says he has never known them. (Matthew 7:21-23)

In Philippians 2, Paul again says of Jesus Christ, "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (YHWH), to the glory of God the Father"

If you read Philippians 2:5-11 carefully, you will see something that is not apparent to most on a cursory reading....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Lets unpack these verses and see what they are really saying.....

Jesus existed in "the form of God"....so what "form" does God have? John 4:24 tells us that "God is a spirit"....so the pre-human Jesus was also in spirit form, as are all the angels who serve God in the spirit realm. So this is not saying that Jesus is God by merely mentioning his "form" before becoming a human on earth.

He "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped".....even though some who witnessed his miracles could have perceived him that way. At no time did Jesus exalt himself, but only ever exalted his Father, who was also his God. (John 20:17) He never usurped his Father's authority....not once.

In "taking the form of a bond servant" Jesus "humbled himself" by agreeing to become a lower life form in order to pay a debt that was created by Adam's response to the devil's temptation through his wife. This is how much he loved mankind.....he was willing to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men so as to redeem his beloved human race, whom he had a hand in making. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

Once he had completed his mission and had laid down his life in sacrifice, he was resurrected by his Father in heaven to whom he prayed often.
Does one equal part of God need to commune with his other self and ask..."My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Can one part of God have a different will to his other equal self? Did Jesus ever pray to the holy spirit?

As a reward for his successful mission, his "God highly exalted him and bestowed on him a name that is above every name."
How can God "highly exalt" one who is his equal? There is no one more highly exalted than God already is. Also, how does God give his other self a name higher than what he already has? (Psalm 83:18)

Why is 'every knee bowing to Jesus'? Because he is God's appointed King....but you will notice that 'all the glory goes to his God and Father'....not to himself.

This scripture is saying the exact opposite to what most people *think* it is saying.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 45:23 reads, "By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance"

Again lets look at that verse in context and see why it was quoted by Paul in Philippians...
Isaiah 45:20-23....
“Gather yourselves and come;
Come together, you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge,
Who carry around their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
21 Declare and present your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this long ago?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the Lord [Yahweh]?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."

It was a prophesy that was fulfilled in the life-course of Jesus Christ. It was addressed to all nations.
How did people turn to the only genuine God so as to be "saved"...it was by becoming disciples of Jesus and following his teachings and example.
Who today are doing that? Certainly not those who are pursuing the worship of the wrong god....and certainly not those who are immersed in the world's political struggles, imagining that their own nation is not controlled by the devil, like all the rest. How much of the world is under satan's control? (1 John 5:19) All of it.

As for Jesus Christ saying that the Father is "the Only True God", read this, Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

LOL...I am guessing that this is a reference to your own assumptions? What weight does that carry here?

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (NASB)

"To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (ESV)

From the Mounce Interlinear....
"Now de to the ho king basileus of ho ages aiōn, incorruptible aphthartos, invisible aoratos, the only monos God theos, be honor timē and kai glory doxa for eis all ho time aiōn ho. · ho Amen amēn."

Where is the "only wise God" in that verse? "monos theos" is "the only God". Unless of course one subscribes to the KJV and its derivatives....then we have a different story.....its amazing to me how different the story is in the KJV about many things....yet despite its many errors, people still place such faith in it.....I don't happen to be one of them.

What does the inclusion of "wise" mean in that verse that could possibly indicate that Jesus is God? Seriously, trinitarians resort to the greatest scriptural gymnastics to prove something that the Bible does not teach.

Who can really doubt that Jesus Christ IS YHWH.

All those who read and understand scripture as it was recorded and understood by those to whom it was written.....that's who. There are many of us....

There is not a single verse in all of the Bible that directly states that Jesus is God. Not once is he ever called "Yahweh".

 

[DavidB]

but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable

That is no doubt why most translations say “the beginning of creation” even though it is very awkward for them as trinitarians.
How do the scriptures saying things were created “through” Jesus identify him as the originator? Just the opposite is meant.

 

[Taken]

Scripture says.....

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Appears, imo, all things were created AND made: a collaborative effort:
One Lord God Almighty, yet taught with separate titles, names, descriptions.
(Men do the same, multiple titles, names, descriptions.)

OF God, (Thought)
THROUGH Christ, (Power)
BY Jesus, (Word)

Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 10:
[30] I and my father are one.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

All those who read and understand scripture as it was recorded and understood by those to whom it was written.....that's who. There are many of us....

There is not a single verse in all of the Bible that directly states that Jesus is God. Not once is he ever called "Yahweh".

John 7:
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Can you give the understanding of what Jesus meant?

 

[Waiting on him]

Colossians 1:15 KJV
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature


Genesis 1:26 KJV
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Genesis 1:26 only fits Jesus Christ.

 

[GEN2REV]

what does verses like Isaiah 43:11 mean? "“I, even I, am Yahweh, And there is no Savior besides Me". We know from the New Testament, that Jesus Christ IS The Saviour of the world, in many verses!

And Isaiah 45:18, "
For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited, I am the Lord, and there is none else" Jesus Christ IS LORD!

Does these verses mean that the Father is not Saviour or Lord?

It says "there is no God BESIDE Me." Not BesideS.

It means 'There is no God beside Him.' He stands alone. One God.

What these types of debates come down to is Faith. You have to make a decision what you are going to believe. You have to make a choice.

If you choose to believe God is multiple persons, you will endlessly seek out verses that seem to support that.

If you choose to believe God is ONE, as scripture states plainly and implies repeatedly, from cover to cover, you will see that Truth.

There will never be an end-all, be-all verse that proves it one way or the other for either side.

You do know believing the Bible at all is a choice, right? God puts belief in us, but it's our choice what we do with that belief. Do we water and nurture it so that it grows, or do we deny it and ignore it and stifle it until it is taken away from us?

If you choose to believe God's Word, try not to wrestle the plain meanings of the scriptures to force-fit them to man's, or scientific, rules and standards.

Let God's Word speak for itself. Let it say what it says and it will define and support exactly what it says all throughout its pages.

God is ONE. There is no God beside Him.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

1 Corinthians 10:1-5....for context....what is Paul saying here?
"For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2 and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased; for their dead bodies were spread out in the wilderness." (NASB)

He is making a comparison and applying it to the Christians so that they would not make the same mistakes as their Jewish forefathers did....

He went on to say...
"Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall."

In context what is Paul referring to in verse 9? The "Lord" referred to in this verse is clearly Yahweh. I am always amused by those who take that title to mean only one person, when in the scriptures this title is applied to various ones.....including the "LORD" (Yahweh) whose name the Jews had ceased to utter, as well as the "Lord" Jesus Christ. Even Sarah addressed Abraham, her husband, as "lord". (1 Peter 3:6)
The angel who delivered the Revelation to John was addressed as "lord" (Revelation 7:13-14)
The jailer who was going to do away with himself addressed the apostles as "Lords" or "Sirs" (kyrios)...it is simply a title of respect, but Christendom treats it like a name, as if it means only Yahweh.....it doesn't. It is an address of respect like "Sir"...look it up.

The British have "Lords" by title and even a "House of Lords"....not one of them is assumed to be God or his equal. It is a title which indicates authority.....nothing more.

You have on chosen the corrupt reading of "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 10:9, because of your personal theology, and not based on the textual evidence, which reads, "Christ". This makes Jesus Christ the YHWH of Numbers 21, a fact that it very clear.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You can be aware of a lot of things that humans write...it doesn't mean that what you read is true. Opinions are a dime a dozen...even yours....and mine.

Allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves is always a good idea.....and since there is no scripture that contradicts itself, it usually provides ample evidence for how it should be understood if you know your Bible, especially under the direction of the holy spirit. It is God's inspired word after all....and we have the assurance from Jesus himself that "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” (John 6:65) What of those for whom it is not granted? Will God prevent us from making the biggest mistake of our lives? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Your idea of a "heretic" or a "cult" might not be God's view of things......Jesus himself could have been accused of being a cult leader and his teachings deemed "heretical" to the Jewish faith of the day......we know in hindsight who the heretics were, just as we can see the evidence in history as to whom the foretold apostate church, (and all who adopted her erroneous teachings) proved to be. Jesus says he has never known them. (Matthew 7:21-23)


If you read Philippians 2:5-11 carefully, you will see something that is not apparent to most on a cursory reading....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Lets unpack these verses and see what they are really saying.....

Jesus existed in "the form of God"....so what "form" does God have? John 4:24 tells us that "God is a spirit"....so the pre-human Jesus was also in spirit form, as are all the angels who serve God in the spirit realm. So this is not saying that Jesus is God by merely mentioning his "form" before becoming a human on earth.

He "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped".....even though some who witnessed his miracles could have perceived him that way. At no time did Jesus exalt himself, but only ever exalted his Father, who was also his God. (John 20:17) He never usurped his Father's authority....not once.

In "taking the form of a bond servant" Jesus "humbled himself" by agreeing to become a lower life form in order to pay a debt that was created by Adam's response to the devil's temptation through his wife. This is how much he loved mankind.....he was willing to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men so as to redeem his beloved human race, whom he had a hand in making. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

Once he had completed his mission and had laid down his life in sacrifice, he was resurrected by his Father in heaven to whom he prayed often.
Does one equal part of God need to commune with his other self and ask..."My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Can one part of God have a different will to his other equal self? Did Jesus ever pray to the holy spirit?

As a reward for his successful mission, his "God highly exalted him and bestowed on him a name that is above every name."
How can God "highly exalt" one who is his equal? There is no one more highly exalted than God already is. Also, how does God give his other self a name higher than what he already has? (Psalm 83:18)

Why is 'every knee bowing to Jesus'? Because he is God's appointed King....but you will notice that 'all the glory goes to his God and Father'....not to himself.

This scripture is saying the exact opposite to what most people *think* it is saying.

The Greek "ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ", is the "very nature of God", as "μορφὴν δούλου" is the "very nature of Man". No one can be "IN the very nature of God", and not be God. In Colossians 2:9, Paul says the same thing, "ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς", "For in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily". This means that Jesus Christ IS FULLY GOD, Who became manifested in the flesh. Which is what Paul also says in the Original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, "θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι"

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

That is no doubt why most translations say “the beginning of creation” even though it is very awkward for them as trinitarians.
How do the scriptures saying things were created “through” Jesus identify him as the originator? Just the opposite is meant.

Explain HOW Jesus Christ, Who is the ORIGINATOR of the whole Creation (Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:2, 10-12; John 1:3, etc), can also be part of His Creation? The Greek preposition διά which is used in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, has the same meaning as in Galatians 1:1, "Paul, an apostle—not from men or by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead". BY here is διά, which is used to govern both Jesus Christ and the Father, and can only be understood by our WITH, or WORKING TOGETHER, which is what the original use of this prepostion is. In Hebrews 2:10, διά, is used for God the Father in Creation, "For it was fitting for Him (the Father), for (διά) whom are all things, and through (διά) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the Originator (Jesus Christ) of their salvation through sufferings". Who Created THROUGH the Father? Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Not the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Scripture says.....

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Appears, imo, all things were created AND made: a collaborative effort:
One Lord God Almighty, yet taught with separate titles, names, descriptions.
(Men do the same, multiple titles, names, descriptions.)

OF God, (Thought)
THROUGH Christ, (Power)
BY Jesus, (Word)

Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 10:
[30] I and my father are one.

Glory to God,
Taken

John 1:1 is clear the "the Word" and "the God" are DISTINCT Persons. We have the Greek preposition πρὸς, as in "WITH God", which shows that there is a DISTINCTION between the Two. It also says in this verse, "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος", which is, "and the Word was God". In verse 3 it says, "ALL THINGS, that is THE UNIVERSE, was Created BY, or better WITH Him, Jesus Christ, as the CREATOR.

The use of the plural in places like Genesis 1:26, is clear that the Godhead (Romans 1:20), is not "Unitarian". John 10:30 proves this, as here we have Jesus Christ and the Father, as "ἐσμεν", in the masculine plural, WE ARE, and then the neuter singular "ἕν", one thing, as in One in Authority and Power, as the context, verses 28-30 clearly says.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

It says "there is no God BESIDE Me." Not BesideS.

It means 'There is no God beside Him.' He stands alone. One God.

What these types of debates come down to is Faith. You have to make a decision what you are going to believe. You have to make a choice.

If you choose to believe God is multiple persons, you will endlessly seek out verses that seem to support that.

If you choose to believe God is ONE, as scripture states plainly and implies repeatedly, from cover to cover, you will see that Truth.

There will never be an end-all, be-all verse that proves it one way or the other for either side.

You do know believing the Bible at all is a choice, right? God puts belief in us, but it's our choice what we do with that belief. Do we water and nurture it so that it grows, or do we deny it and ignore it and stifle it until it is taken away from us?

If you choose to believe God's Word, try not to wrestle the plain meanings of the scriptures to force-fit them to man's, or scientific, rules and standards.

Let God's Word speak for itself. Let it say what it says and it will define and support exactly what it says all throughout its pages.

God is ONE. There is no God beside Him.

I note that you just ignored the verses from Isaiah, that say there is only ONE Lord and ONE Saviour, which IS Jesus Christ. LORD is YHWH, does this mean that the Father is not YHWH? you need to address these verses as well.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Genesis 1:26 only fits Jesus Christ

as the Creator God, and not created being

 

[Aunty Jane]

You have on chosen the corrupt reading of "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 10:9, because of your personal theology, and not based on the textual evidence, which reads, "Christ". This makes Jesus Christ the YHWH of Numbers 21, a fact that it very clear.

Who determines what is corrupt? You? Who are you? The textual evidence reads Yahweh. It does not make Jesus into Yahweh who was the Creator of his firstborn son.

And what about your personal theology? Isn't that coloring what you believe? Who made you the arbiter of what is correct? I haven't seen you post a single scripture that you didn't have to force your arguments into, to make your point of view appear to be correct. I'll just let scripture speak for itself....it always does.

Who are your teachers by the way? Or is this all your own work? What 'branch' of Christianity teaches what you believe?

The Greek "ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ", is the "very nature of God", as "μορφὴν δούλου" is the "very nature of Man". No one can be "IN the very nature of God", and not be God. In Colossians 2:9, Paul says the same thing, "ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς", "For in Him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily". This means that Jesus Christ IS FULLY GOD, Who became manifested in the flesh. Which is what Paul also says in the Original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, "θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι"

Its all Geek to everyone but you apparently....
There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....trinitarians made it up.
That is what happens when one cannot tell the difference between "divinity" and "deity". This word signifies the sum-total of the divine attributes. Jesus Christ was divine but he never once said he was deity. I suppose you are going to tell me that he was worshipped....?

Explain HOW Jesus Christ, Who is the ORIGINATOR of the whole Creation (Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:2, 10-12; John 1:3, etc), can also be part of His Creation?

That's simple...he was not the "originator" of Creation at all because that is not what the scriptures tell us.

If he was "with" the Father "in the beginning".....don't we have to ask...."the beginning of what?" The Eternal God had no beginning, so as Revelation 3:14 says....(and this was Jesus conveying the Revelation to John) he called himself the "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." Not the "beginner" or the "originator" but the "beginning".....
"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs)
So as God's first and only son in the beginning, he was given the privilege of fashioning all the raw materials that his God and Father had brought into existence, working at his Father's side.
He became his "Master Workman". (Proverbs 8:30-31)

He is "only begotten" which means that he is unique as the only direct creation of his Father....the "firstborn of all creation" according to the apostle Paul. (Colossians 1:15-17) He is "the image of the invisible God"....how can one be the image of something that is invisible?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Who determines what is corrupt? You? Who are you? The textual evidence reads Yahweh. It does not make Jesus into Yahweh who was the Creator of his firstborn son.

And what about your personal theology? Isn't that coloring what you believe? Who made you the arbiter of what is correct? I haven't seen you post a single scripture that you didn't have to force your arguments into, to make your point of view appear to be correct. I'll just let scripture speak for itself....it always does.

Who are your teachers by the way? Or is this all your own work? What 'branch' of Christianity teaches what you believe?


Its all Geek to everyone but you apparently....
There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....trinitarians made it up.
That is what happens when one cannot tell the difference between "divinity" and "deity". This word signifies the sum-total of the divine attributes. Jesus Christ was divine but he never once said he was deity. I suppose you are going to tell me that he was worshipped....?

That's simple...he was not the "originator" of Creation at all because that is not what the scriptures tell us.

If he was "with" the Father "in the beginning".....don't we have to ask...."the beginning of what?" The Eternal God had no beginning, so as Revelation 3:14 says....(and this was Jesus conveying the Revelation to John) he called himself the "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." Not the "beginner" or the "originator" but the "beginning".....
"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs)
So as God's first and only son in the beginning, he was given the privilege of fashioning all the raw materials that his God and Father had brought into existence, working at his Father's side.
He became his "Master Workman". (Proverbs 8:30-31)

He is "only begotten" which means that he is unique as the only direct creation of his Father....the "firstborn of all creation" according to the apostle Paul. (Colossians 1:15-17) He is "the image of the invisible God"....how can one be the image of something that is invisible?

The textual evidence overwhelmingly supports the reading “Christos”, in 1 Corinthians 10:9. The oldest Greek manuscript for this Letter of Paul, from around A.D. 200, the the Chester Beatty Papyri, P46. Before this time, we have the evidence of the Greek Church fathers, Irenaeus, who was born about A.D. 140; and Clement of Alexandria (150-215). Then, Origen (185-254), who was a heretic and denied that Jesus Christ is God; Eusebius (260-340). From the Latin Church, we have, Ambrose, Bishp of Malan (339-97), Augustine, Bishop of Hippo (354-430), both who knew Greek and used the Greek New Testament. Then, we also the the Syriac father, Ephraem (306-373), who came from Edessa.

The reading "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 10:9 dates from the 4th century, about 200 years LATER! No doubt changed by those who could not accept that Jesus Christ is YHWH.

The BEGINNING that we read in John 1:1, is ETERNITY PAST, before Genesis 1:1. Creation, which is Genesis 1:1, is in John 1:3.

Hebrews 1:10-12 has God the Father address Jesus Christ as The Creator. These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where it is used for Elohim. Clearly God the Father Testifies that Jesus Christ is the GOD in Psalm 102, and THE CREATOR. You cannot escape this FACT.

You have given the false reading for Revelation 3:14, where the Jehovah's Witnesses, due to their theological BIAS, have MISTRANSLATED the Greek grammar, "ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ", by "the beginning of the creation BY God", the Greek is "OF God", as "τοῦ Θεοῦ" is in the genitive case!

The Greek "μονογενὴς", is not "only begotten" for which the correct Greek is, “μονογέννητος”. The former word means, "one of a kind, Unique". No BEGETTING in this compound word!

"πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως", in Colossians 1:15, is "First-Born over all Creation", as Jesus Christ IS The Creator. In Psalm 89:27, David is called God's Firstborn, though he was the LAST born! "I will also make him My firstborn, greatest of the kings of the earth"

None of your arguments hold up when examined by FACTS!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

There is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible....trinitarians made it up

another FALSE accusation!

Romans 1:20 has the Greek noun "θειότης". According to the Greek authority lexicon by Liddell and Scott, which is not Biblical, the Greek philosopher Plutarch (46-119 AD), used this word for, "divine nature, divinity". Our English word "Godhead", means, "the essential nature of God", Godhead definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary, which is what Romans 1:20 says! The Jehovah's Witnesses, to avoid the Truth, have made up their own definition of "Godship", which is not found in ANY Greek lexicon!