Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[Taken]

No, one must continue to have faith in Christ, not perform works of self righteousness, to remain saved.

"Remain saved" ....is Gods Works, and IS permanent.

Some say that's a given and that the true believer will always believe and can't stop believing.

Agree...and that IS TRUE.

Some say the true believer has a choice to continue to believe or stop believing.

Agree...and that IS TRUE.

Sounds like an Oxymoron....eh?

BOTH are CORRECT....with UNDERSTANDING.

ANY man, can truly Believe, follow, hear, listen...."AND"....while that man IS; truly believing, following, hearing, listening.....
THE Lord God "IS WITH" that man.
KEY WORD..... "WITH".
That man CAN at ANY TIME, "STOP" hearing, listening, following, STOP BELIEVING....
"AND"...
Two things happen....
1) that man is NO LONGER ..."WITH the Lord"
2) the Lord is NO LONGER..."WITH that man".

THAT man, "TASTED" the Word of God.
THAT man, "TASTED" Blessing of God.
THAT man, "spit out the Word of God".
THAT man, "is called FALLEN from FAITH".

The OTHER Scenario....IS; "a man ...WITHIN the Lord God.
KEY WORD... "WITHIN"..."WITH and "IN".

The WHOLE dynamics CHANGES...
The Spirit of the Lord... "WITHIN" a man, IS totally Different than the Lord "WITH" a man.

The Lord...WITH a man IS Dependant upon the mans ...endurance, power, effort to keep hearing, keep following, keep believing, keep listening, etc.

The Lord...WITHIN a man IS wholly Dependant upon the POWER OF GOD..."LITERALLY" the POWER of God, IN that man.
And then...whose POWER IS GREATER than Gods?

(That BTW is the Crux of the difference between a man WHO BELIEVES >OSAS > which is Precisely the ONCE being, a man WITHIN Christ and Christ WITHIN a man...
And men "pretending" the Lord "WITH" a man "means" WITHIN a man.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Addy]

When we compare ourselves to each other... for our measuring stick of HOW good we are ... this is called PRIDE. The bible has much to say about this attitude.

Proverbs 11:2 - When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:5 - Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Proverbs 29:23 - A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Galatians 6:3 - For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

James 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Proverbs 27:2 - Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Proverbs 26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Philippians 2:3 - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Jeremiah 9:23 - Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:

1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Romans 12:16 - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

 

[Taken]

I call it sacred ground... others call it stomping ground...

Clever to the point insight.
Spot on.

 

[BarneyFife]

This is essentially the definition of legalism. Your mainline denominations are chock full of these Easter and Christmas kind of Christians.

Sorry, FB, normally I agree with you, but I think the whole (to put it bluntly) anti-denominational movement is born out of a bad rap. It's a genetic fallacy of sorts.

Anyway, I think these discussions would be a lot easier if modern evangelicalism wasn't so overwhelmingly obsessed with "being saved." It's gotten to be like a spiritual status symbol. It reeks of selfishness to me. I'm not saying that everyone who considers themselves "saved" is selfish. But my Southern Baptist dad got so tired of being reminded how important it is to be in a saved condition and that he might not be that he gave up on church and started listening to Joel Osteen.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and I know I've told this story before so I'll try to keep it short, but eternal security didn't work for me, mentally. I was always worried that I might not have been sincere enough when I last gave my heart to Jesus, so I was constantly getting re-saved just to be sure, which I never was. It was a vicious cycle that wore me to a frazzle. I would see myself fall to temptation and then think "I must never have been saved to begin with" because that was what I heard at church. I have so much more assurance of favor with God and His watchcare over me now that I've become a classical Arminian that I would never go back to "eternal (in)security." None for me, thanks.

I have to say, though, that the idea of willfully sinning in unbelief puzzles me. To my way of studying, there are two types of sin: Forgivable and unforgivable. That seems to be the way Jesus lays it out. I like Jesus's way of teaching. Paul is often concise and succinct, but he often confuses me, too. I make no apology for that. I wish I understood him better, and I've been trying for 50 years now, but he still makes me scratch my head a lot. I'm not sure I'll ever understand 2 Cor. 3 this side of eternity. Just when I think I've got some sort of a bead on it, I lose it again. Peter said he wrote things hard to be understood, but when's the last time you heard of someone saying they didn't understand something specific that he wrote?

I think I'm rambling now. :)

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry, FB, normally I agree with you, but I think the whole (to put it bluntly) anti-denominational movement is born out of a bad rap. It's a genetic fallacy of sorts.

Anyway, I think these discussions would be a lot easier if modern evangelicalism wasn't so overwhelmingly obsessed with "being saved." It's gotten to be like a spiritual status symbol. It reeks of selfishness to me. I'm not saying that everyone who considers themselves "saved" is selfish. But my Southern Baptist dad got so tired of being reminded how important it is to be in a saved condition and that he might not be that he gave up on church and started listening to Joel Osteen.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and I know I've told this story before so I'll try to keep it short, but eternal security didn't work for me, mentally. I was always worried that I might not have been sincere enough when I last gave my heart to Jesus, so I was constantly getting re-saved just to be sure, which I never was. It was a vicious cycle that wore me to a frazzle. I would see myself fall to temptation and then think "I must never have been saved to begin with" because that was what I heard at church. I have so much more assurance of favor with God and His watchcare over me now that I've become a classical Arminian that I would never go back to "eternal (in)security." None for me, thanks.

I have to say, though, that the idea of willfully sinning in unbelief puzzles me. To my way of studying, there are two types of sin: Forgivable and unforgivable. That seems to be the way Jesus lays it out. I like Jesus's way of teaching. Paul is often concise and succinct, but he often confuses me, too. I make no apology for that. I wish I understood him better, and I've been trying for 50 years now, but he still makes me scratch my head a lot. I'm not sure I'll ever understand 2 Cor. 3 this side of eternity. Just when I think I've got some sort of a bead on it, I lose it again. Peter said he wrote things hard to be understood, but when's the last time you heard of someone saying they didn't understand something specific that he wrote?

I think I'm rambling now. :)

You are not alone with Paul he confuses a lot of people. Paul was well educated that is one of the reasons that he was the most prolific writer in the New Testament. His intent was not to confuse he was using the religious literary style of the time. He would make statements on topics that would seem to be at both ends of the extremes. That is why you see people quoting him here on this forum that are debating diametrically opposing beliefs. It seems like he is talking out both sides of his mouth, but that is not it at all.

That is one of the problems with Fundamentalism, it limits understanding and causes confusion. Because of this methodology they cannot look at things in history outside of the Bible to understand the topics discussed in the Bible. It works great for understanding basic salvation but the lack of information causes false beliefs on specific topics. And because Fundamentalists are just looking at the Bible they have to make a lot of assumptions that are false. In this case not understanding the religious literary style of the time period prevents people from understanding some of the things he said.

In regard to OSAS I have explained the categories and the intentions behind them. But some false beliefs do not harm you, depending how you apply them. If you believe in OSAS and you lead a life that is not excessively sinful...it is not going effect your assessment at / on Judgment Day. You sin, you repent, your are forgiven...done deal. For most Christians, there is no reason to worry about salvation. Salvation is secure and stable...tailor made for humans that are going to have their faults. Be good and do good....the best you can and have no worries.

But some use OSAS as a license to live sinful lives or justify sinful lives. Some don't even believe in repentance...and some redefine the definition of repentance, it significance and ramifications...and in doing so have no opportunity to get forgiveness for their sins so they die in their sins and arrive on Judgment Day prepackaged for hell. The clear and present danger is for those they sway to the life of sin and drag others down to hell with them. If you preach something that causes others to go to hell....is that going to push you down to the worst levels of hell?

 

[BarneyFife]

Nothing But The Blood” means that only TWO THINGS * SAVE* us.....I am talking about Nothing else.....It us the Sacrificial Shed Blood Of Jesus on the Cross and our FAITH in that All- Sufficient Sacrificial Act That is “Signified” by that Blood that Saves a Soul..... NOTHING else for Salvation.....

BB, this makes no sense at all. "Nothing But The Blood" can't be 2 things. It's not logical.

Do you REALLY think that Jesus was demanding that these people be perfect the rest of their lives?

It doesn't matter what I think.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)​

Jesus says the goal is perfection. I can't lower His standard to mine.

I don’t believe I was being serious....I have probably accused him of much worse things.....I was trying to make a point.....deal with it....He May not be a “ hypocrite” ,

Were you serious these other times?:

It is also “ clearly written” that if your eye causes you to sin, Pluck It Out! I suppose you never have looked upon a woman with lust? How come you have two eyes, Hypocrite ?

If you are without sin, you can be the first one to point that finger.....you seem to be slobbering at the mouth to do so....hypocrite....you are just an “Accuser Of The Brethren” talking out of your Balaam’s Ass....get lost.....

<<<....Just as you do, Blind man.Who the Hell do you think you are fooling. Certainly not God....not even your fellow human beings .We just happen to know what it’s like to be human—- and being honest about it, you hypocrite! You ain’t nearly as “Holy” as you think you are, and you ain’t fooling ANYBODY.....you are laughable in your self “ preening”....>>>

<<<Sorry, Charlie, But The Song you sang like the hypocrite that you are had it right all along....it really is , “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus”.... I certainly do not know everything , but I am Eternally Grateful That I do not find myself on the Wrong Side Of “ THAT” debate......>>>

Hypocrite !
You have three fingers pointing back at you.

You don't “ love your enemies” any more than I do, hypocrite....

There’s another Song you can tear out if your hymnal, Hypocrite......

....you hypocrites sing it, but would not actually “ believe” for all of the money in the world.....it would take FAITH to do that.....at the present , you are “ Fallen from Grace” and dont even know it....

How “ gentle and respectful” were you when you declared my “ Damnation” for all to see? Can you say, “ Hypocrite! “ Believe it or not , it is my intention to be kind and light- hearted every time I come in here....

There's plenty more but no need to be redundant here. By the way, Is all the vulgarity necessary?

Behavior is not a part of Paul’s Test....

Paul doesn't have a test. He defers to Jesus:

But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10)​

Jesus said to follow Paul

Couldn't find that. Found some other good stuff, though:

1 Corinthians 3
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
​

Sounds like Christ is at the head of the "following" chain here.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You didn't gloss over doctrine in my post. You glossed right over the emboldened part where I made it crystal clear that I am better than the drunk in the alley BY GOD'S GRACE. And because you did that you launched into an inapplicable and ignorant rant about me being legalistic and self righteous. God made me worthy of the kingdom, not me, lol.

God may have made you “ more fortunate” than the drunk......he may have given you a break but that does not make you “ Better”....It does not make You Superior ....you showed your True “ Ugly Colors”

Instead of showing a drunk compassion , you showed superiority, just like a Pharisee would.....don’t try to hang that on Grace—-Grace would open your eyes to the fact that Everyman is equal in the sense that we ALL have the capacity to be the best or the worst....

I always knew there was something “ wrong” with you.The Truth Of your Pharisaic Heart has been shown to the world....and you can’t deny it....

 

[BarneyFife]

This is essentially the definition of legalism. Your mainline denominations are chock full of these Easter and Christmas kind of Christians.

I thought legalism was the belief that one can earn one's way into Heaven. Seems like a big difference to me. Oh, well.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It sounds a lot like you're blaming large denominations for true legalism, which is extremely rare anywhere.

I grew up in the Methodist and Presbyterian churches in the '70s. After getting born again it was clear to me that the vast majority of people attending those churches were legalistic, unsaved Sunday Christians.

Small, non-denominal churches do not have a monopoly on the fruit of the Spirit.

They used to. I mean the ones specifically devoted to the gifts of the Spirit. If a person was in no way shape or form into the gifts and experiences of the Spirit they would have nothing to do with these churches.

The Spirit is drawing people right now who've never even heard the name "Jesus."

The stories coming from the Mission Fields over the last 20 years are incredibly exciting. Some of the most dramatic stories of conversion I've heard come from the Jesus Film Project. Though I haven't had much contact with them in the last few years.

:) We're still pals, right? ;)

We are way good, brother!

I could well be out of touch of what's actually happening in churches these days so I'm open to current information.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I thought legalism was the belief that one can earn one's way into Heaven.

It is. The 'Christians' I encountered in the mainline denominations went to church as if they were keeping a score card of 'religious' things they gotta do to be right with God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I feel no obligation to answer your specific question and/or accusations ....there is nothing you say that I have not seen before and responded to before....I do gloss over your posts....I have so many things to respond to....and these responses don’t see the light of day unless it’s something I want a Newbie to see.....no disrespect intended , but I DO talk “ past” you — not “ TO” you, most of the time ....sorry...

Then I guess we're done. I will address the points in your posts for the sake of other readers. You don't need to bother reading any of my posts from here on out.

 

[jessiblue]

Here is my understanding . . .

OSAS is certainly true in that the salvation of God is irrevocable. If we think of "salvation" as eternal life and "being saved" as the receiving of eternal life, then it becomes easier to understand this; nobody who enters eternal life can ever forfeit it (otherwise, it was never eternal life that they entered into). So in that sense, OSAS does reflect the biblical reality of God's salvation.

But OSAS does carry some baggage because there will be those who use the term to justify or defend a licentious or immoral way of living. But I believe that biblical salvation is to share in God’s gift of eternal life in obedience and righteous living through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Christ receives all who come to Him, and whoever does come, He will never cast out.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

jb

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am quite certain and agree with my foes, the Followers Of Jesus were GREAT people......not completely sinless but probably closer to that goal than anybody in history.....They were Believers....because of that they had God’s Spirit in them....it was that controlling Spirit that made them like Jesus.....they were not harsh , judgmental Legalists preaching “ do do this and don’t do that” .....they were like the God and the Jesus That they preached about .....full of kindness, full of compassion, eager to forgive sinners , etc.

This thinking completely ignores the lengthy passages of 'do this, don't do this' in scripture written by the followers of Jesus.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sorry Ferris... you and I are done.

If the necessity to believe bothers you there's nothing more I can say to you. We are indeed done. Only in recent years have I met Christians who chafe at the thought of having to believe.

 

[marks]

+ I have NEVER understood "abusing" GRACE When God Says I should "Take Advantage" Of HIS Amazing GRACE! Amen?:

Also to mention Paul spoke of not frustrating God's grace,

Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is literally along the lines of repudiating His grace.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're inadequate reading comprehension and your impolite way of just passing over my posts causes you to truncate my argument to your liking. You keep leaving off the part where I say that willful sins DONE IN UNBELIEF AND A REJECTION OF CHRIST are what will condemn you despite any claim to have believed and been saved in the past. It isn't about accidental vs. purposeful sins. It's about purposely sinning IN UNBELIEF. You need to stop glossing over my posts and talking past me and actually give me the godly courtesy of actually understanding my argument. I do that for you. You owe me the same courtesy.

You know, he's not the only one who sees through what you are saying.

His description of you using a "back door approach" is correct in my opinion. You claim grace, but you still grind on the works. You equate sinning with disbelieving, oh, I know, you're going to back pedal and obfuscate, but your message is clear. Born again might become unborn again if they sin too much, or in the wrong way, or for the wrong reason, you've got a bunch of ways to say it. But each one dances around this simple truth.

Your teaching is that what was given by grace in creating a new creature who is the spirit child of God, that this can be lost, the new man die, because of the works of the flesh.

What is given by grace can be lost by works. That's what you teach.

Much love!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Legalism is trying to be obedient with the express intent of earning a justification of right standing with God. The obedience of faith, and the necessity for it, is not legalism.


Wow......you just keep imploding and making things easier and easier for me as time goes by....trying to EARN Salvation , trying to JUSTIFY yourself before God and obtaining a “ right standing” before God By your “ obedience” ( which would amount to depending on The Law ) is a prescription for Damnation! “ By The Works Of The Law, NO man will be justified”...... this is what you are doing, although I know you will try to deny it....

You are like the Jews that Paul talked about....you may have a “ zeal” for God, but you will not do things HIS Way......you are trying to establish your OWN Righteousness instead of doing it God’s way by putting your Faith in HIS Righteousness....

Talk about “ Christianity 101!”

PLEASE , PLEASE, PLEASE Newbies—— Don't make this damnable error! The only way to get “ right standing” before God is to Believe the Gospel .....Obedience is great— it beats the heck out if Disobedience—- But Obedience to the Laws Of God is not included in God's Recipe for Salvation....God's “ Recipe” for Salvation is doing His Will.....what is God's Will? Jesus told His Disciples the Will Of The Father is to * BELIEVE* in the One that He sent! That is made manifest by Resting in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4.....RESTING in what a Merciful God has done for a Sinful and Lost Mankind—- NOT what YOU have done for God......God considers “ that” Filthy Rags......

You want to be Obedient in the sense that it will lead to Salvation? 2 Thess.1:8 tells you to obey—— “ OBEY the Gospel Of our Lord Jesus Christ” ......you MUST put first things first! Obey the Gospel by Believing it.....do that and you will be Saved.....additionally, God will give you His Holy Spirit and that Spirit , If you let it hang around long enough , will take care of any obedience that God is concerned with as He Transforms you from the inside out.... it’s HIS *TRANSFORMING* , something only HE can do and NOT your CHANGING....

As Paul said,we finish this Christian Walk the same way we started it—— FAITH! “From Faith to Faith” is how Paul put it......Did you get the Holy Spirit by being a “ good widdle boy”, or did you get it by Trusting God? Continue in the Way that you started....YOU provide the Faith and let God provide the Behavior as He changes your Heart from a Disobedient One into one that WANTS to please God....You can change the outward behavior that will please the self- Righteous Fruit Inspectors Of your Religious country club , but only God can Transform a Heart.....He will do it if you let Him.....it takes Faith....got any?

 

[marks]

If the necessity to believe bothers you there's nothing more I can say to you. We are indeed done. Only in recent years have I met Christians who chafe at the thought of having to believe.

This just comes across to me as idiocy.

We believe. Get with the program. We've been born again. We are God's children. Your issue is trying to convince others that God will throw you away after having given His Son to have you. And that you push this point so long and so hard and so poorly, and with the behavior I've seen from you, this tells me what I need to know about you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Good morning.
Obedience is not legalism. Obedience is the result of faith...

"...the obedience that comes from faith." Romans 1:5
​

Legalism is trying to be obedient with the express intent of earning a justification of right standing with God. The obedience of faith, and the necessity for it, is not legalism. BB seems to be going off the deep end, lol, but if he remains somewhat sane and our discussion can continue I invite you to read along. Based on what you've said above it's probably better that you not participate at this point.

Demanding obedience to remain saved . . . that's the legalism.

Disengenuous discussion is indeed frustrating for some. I'm pretty used to it, I've seen so much of it!

Much love!

 

[marks]

It does get frustrating.
IMO part of the biggest issue in discussion IS:
One "word" has multiple meanings and applications. And when two people are discussing a topic, and each meaning and applying one "word", in a different sense...the topic of discussion goes haywire.

God Bless,
Taken

You can really spin people in circles dancing around the meanings of words. And those who are trying to have a real conversation with people who are doing that? You bet! Frustrating!

Much love!