Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

[face2face]

Thanks, @Johann !

I wasn’t about to go over it again with F2F.

His unreasonable & arrogant attitude abrades me.

Take care, my cousin!

If you go over your own posts and look at your contribution, would you say that was going over it "again?"

What's unreasonable is your inability to demonstrate and substantiate your beliefs from the Word.

So many threads with unanswered questions, and when asked to provide an example, you provide the wrong one.

The record of posts is sufficient evidence.

F2F

 

[TheHC]

Learn some church history…

You mean like, how the church’s leaders burned people at the stake, and how, since its inception, joined the states in their conflicts, even starting their own wars? Catholics killing Catholics, simply because of ideology or geography?

Am I supposed to attempt to justify Christianity to you Auntie Jane?

That’s not Christianity!

You actually think Jesus has approved of all the bloodshed sanctioned in the name of “christianity”?!!
Matthew 7:21-23.
(Will you even read it?)


Christians are still around, though.

 

[face2face]

You mean like, how the church’s leaders burned people at the stake, and how, since its inception, joined the states in their conflicts, even starting their own wars? Catholics killing Catholics, simply because of ideology or geography?

That’s not Christianity!

You actually think Jesus has approved of all the bloodshed sanctioned in the name of “Christianity”?!!
Matthew 7:21-23.
(Will you even read it?)


Christians are still around, though.

How is it you can show truth like this here, yet when it comes to speaking to Genesis 3 you show no understanding at all? And no exaggeration when I say, no understanding.

Is it merely being selective?

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

FWIW….

No….but I was hoping for some scriptural evidence concerning the claim that Catholic doctrine is based on the Bible or the teachings of Christ and his apostles…you see anything outside of scripture is inadmissible.
You have a vastly different view of what constitutes “Christianity” than I do……if Christ was to return tomorrow, who would he accept as his own?

Please supply the scriptures that back up this claim or it is empty…again, you are in a debate forum so where is your rebuttal? Evidence is needed to back up what you say. It’s not about your opinions.

Five “popes” you say….? Where will I find them in Scripture? Do tell….did they all carry the pagan Roman title of Pontifex Maximus? According to my research, Julius Caesar held this title more than 40 years before Jesus was born. How strange if it was a “Christian” title…..?

There were no “popes” in original Christianity…..nor were there any earthly priests officiating in the congregations. The priesthood of Christ’s apostles and disciples was to be served in heaven…not on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Well, as I said before, this is a debate forum, so if you are not willing to debate, then why are you here?
There is a difference between being unwilling to respond.…and unable.
If you have the courage of your convictions then a strong rebuttal should be a walk in the park….just keep it scriptural as it is a Bible discussion forum.

Perhaps you also need to do this…..just don’t accept your pagan church’s word for anything….they have never preached the truth in their entire existence. When Jesus comes as judge and says to those who profess to be his disciples….”I NEVER KNEW YOU”…he means it. (Matt 7:21-23)

When Catholic raised people become Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are generally appalled at the things they were taught that are contrary to what Jesus taught…..their lack of Bible knowledge and slavery to ritual, did not allow them to see the truth….but once the Scriptures were opened to them, and the light shone through the darkness…..they left the church in obedience to Rev 18:4-5…..Christendom as a whole, is part of “Babylon the great”, promoting beliefs that originated in ancient Babylon, the springboard for all false worship….it is not even a shadow of what the first century Christians believed. But unless you study the Bible itself, rather than church doctrine, you will never know.

LOL
Who said I cared to debate with you?
Hence no rebuttle to rediculous claims.
Sorry didn't read the entire post.

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane

Why was Adam made in the open fields with the animals, and not within the hedged about Garden?

F2F

 

[Johann]

Why was Adam made in the open fields with the animals, and not within the hedged about Garden?

Here is something from the Rabbins/Sages-

Ancient rabbinic writings, particularly from the Midrash and Talmud, offer rich interpretations of the Genesis creation story, including why Adam was created outside the Garden of Eden. Some of these writings focus on the broader theological and moral significance of Adam’s creation in the open fields rather than within the protected Garden.

1. Humility and Universal Connection (Midrash Bereshit Rabbah)

In Bereshit Rabbah 8:1, the rabbis comment that Adam being created from the dust of the earth serves as a reminder of human humility. Since Adam was formed from common dust outside the Garden, it signifies that all humans, regardless of status, share the same humble origins. This highlights the importance of humility and the universality of the human experience.

Another interpretation in Bereshit Rabbah 14:8 teaches that Adam was created from dust taken from the four corners of the world. This signifies that Adam belonged to the entire earth, and the earth belonged to him. Being created outside the Garden underscores Adam’s connection to all creation, not just to a specific, enclosed space like Eden.

2. Man’s Role as Caretaker (Midrash Tanchuma)
Midrash Tanchuma comments on why Adam was created outside the Garden: so that he could appreciate it more once he was placed there. The idea is that if Adam had been created in the Garden, he might have taken its beauty and abundance for granted. By being formed outside and then introduced into the Garden, Adam would recognize it as a place of divine provision and appreciate the responsibility given to him to care for it.

This interpretation places an emphasis on stewardship and the human role as caretaker of creation, which mirrors the biblical mandate in Genesis to "tend and keep" the Garden.

3. Trial and Testing (Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer)
Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer, a work of early Jewish aggadic teachings, suggests that Adam being created outside the Garden symbolized his neutral status at the time of creation. The Garden represented a place of testing and trial, particularly regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By being brought into the Garden after his creation, Adam was introduced to a place where moral choices would define his future, emphasizing that his entry into the Garden came with responsibility and the potential for sin or righteousness.

4. Humanity’s Full Relationship to Earth (Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 38a)
In the Talmud (Sanhedrin 38a), the rabbis discuss the formation of Adam in a way that links him to both heaven and earth. Adam being created outside the Garden demonstrates that he was made to live in the whole world, not just in a specific paradise. His role was not confined to a particular space, and his dominion extended over the earth itself. Being made outside the Garden also showed that Adam was to bring the blessings of the Garden—order, beauty, and divine presence—into the world around him.

The summary of these Rabbinic views-

Humility: Adam's creation from the dust outside the Garden serves as a reminder of human humility and the universal connection of humanity to the earth.

Stewardship: Adam's creation outside the Garden emphasizes the idea that Eden was a gift to be appreciated and cared for, encouraging responsible stewardship of creation.

Moral Responsibility: Adam's placement in the Garden after his creation signifies a shift to moral responsibility, where he was tested and entrusted with maintaining righteousness.

Universal Dominion: Adam’s creation outside the Garden indicates that his role was broader than just tending Eden; he was meant to relate to and oversee all of creation.

I'm sure @Aunty Jane will give you the Scripture references.
J.

 

[face2face]

The summary of these Rabbinic views-

Humility: Adam's creation from the dust outside the Garden serves as a reminder of human humility and the universal connection of humanity to the earth.

Stewardship: Adam's creation outside the Garden emphasizes the idea that Eden was a gift to be appreciated and cared for, encouraging responsible stewardship of creation.

Moral Responsibility: Adam's placement in the Garden after his creation signifies a shift to moral responsibility, where he was tested and entrusted with maintaining righteousness.

Universal Dominion: Adam’s creation outside the Garden indicates that his role was broader than just tending Eden; he was meant to relate to and oversee all of creation.

I'm sure @Aunty Jane will give you the Scripture references.
J.

Unfortunately Aunty Jane rarely gives me any Scriptural references, but that's another story.

A lot of good points there J. I wonder how many of them Aunty agrees with.

I like it that you couldn't help yourself from answering - I'm the same lol

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Aunty Jane has this view that A&E were meant to thrive for eternity in the Garden and that God wanted dust beings from the beginning without the hope of them ever attaining divine nature. She sees Christ as plan B.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Unfortunately Aunty Jane rarely gives me any Scriptural references, but that's another story.

A lot of good points there J. I wonder how many of them Aunty agrees with.

I like it that you couldn't help yourself from answering - I'm the same lol

F2F

To be truthful here, I am in a slough of despondency and as I read certain threads-especially the "sinless perfection" threads-hopping in and out of the Spirit and then back in, in the sarx then out, back in, I am thankful for the Scriptures and the solid foundation, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Stay strong in Messiah.
J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

Aunty Jane has this view that A&E were meant to thrive for eternity in the Garden and that God wanted dust beings from the beginning without the hope of them ever attaining divine nature. She sees Christ as plan B.

F2F

Oh my!
The ancient rabbinical writings have much to say about this!
Lichtavim ha’rabbanim ha’atikaim yesh harbeh ma lomar al zeh!

J.

 

[face2face]

Oh my!
J.

I've been trying to show the JW's here the important lessons from Genesis 3 but they have resisted and stumbled over every lesson.

Frustrating but it highlights the dangers of not laboring in the Word for yourself.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

The summary of these Rabbinic views-

Humility: Adam's creation from the dust outside the Garden serves as a reminder of human humility and the universal connection of humanity to the earth.

Stewardship: Adam's creation outside the Garden emphasizes the idea that Eden was a gift to be appreciated and cared for, encouraging responsible stewardship of creation.

Moral Responsibility: Adam's placement in the Garden after his creation signifies a shift to moral responsibility, where he was tested and entrusted with maintaining righteousness.

Universal Dominion: Adam’s creation outside the Garden indicates that his role was broader than just tending Eden; he was meant to relate to and oversee all of creation.

This is a fairly good summary actually….

Gen 2:7-9 in summary of the events in Gen 1, states as follows….

” then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. . . . .

15-25…..”The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said,“This at last is bone of my bonesand flesh of my flesh;she shall be called Woman,because she was taken out of Man.” (ESV)

The creation of the man came before the garden was planted.….Adam was “put“ in the garden, and so he was obviously created outside of it. Eve was created inside the garden but from Adam’s DNA. But what is the difference?

I do not understand the relevance of him being created “inside” or “outside”, as if outside of the garden was somehow off limits? The whole earth was created as a perfect home for all the creatures that God made to share life with us here on this planet. They were created first, so their existence was in all probability, both inside and outside of the garden.

They were commanded to “subdue” the earth outside of the garden, so it needed “taming” or to “be brought under man’s control” and maintained that way.
We all know what happens when things are not maintained by cultivation and care….nature takes over.

Adam was commissioned to name all the animals…no mean fete…..as he had to observe them all in order to give them an appropriate name……not something completed in a literal day……it was only after he had done that that he became acutely aware of the fact that he was the only creature without a mate….God then completed the 6th “day” with the creation of the one who was to “become the mother of everyone living”…..and “everything” was declared by God to be “very good”.

Since the mandate from the Creator was to “fill the earth” with their offspring, confinement to the garden is not indicated, as if there was a law against leaving it. In order to fill the earth (not just the garden) with their children, a large workforce would be needed to assist the original pair to populate the whole earth and extend the boundaries of their paradise home until the earth itself was a beautiful paradise, having the garden as their ‘blueprint’.
The only reason to bar entry to the garden after the fall was to prevent access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)

This is how I believe the scenario played out.…we see a guardian Cherub on duty, who began to entertain thoughts that would undo all that God purposed for the human race.….this rebel allowed himself to abuse his free will. He did not dismiss his wicked intentions. (James 1:15-15)

And the rest, as they say….is history….and here we are.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Unfortunately Aunty Jane rarely gives me any Scriptural references, but that's another story.

A lot of good points there J. I wonder how many of them Aunty agrees with.


F2F

@Johann

Aunty Jane has this view that A&E were meant to thrive for eternity in the Garden and that God wanted dust beings from the beginning without the hope of them ever attaining divine nature. She sees Christ as plan B.

F2F

Please give no credence to anything this person says about my beliefs…..he has no idea….he just thinks he knows it all, but is apparently ‘a lone ranger’…..obsessed with his own opinions…..so, unless you have a brotherhood who all believe as you do, and who meet for worship regularly, you cannot even call yourself a “Christian”…. (1 Cor 1:10; Heb 10:24-25)

God’s spirit promotes unity, not disunity. There is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”…..not the divided mess that is Christendom.…nor in the meandering minds of those who think Christianity is just for them.

 

[Johann]

Please give no credence to anything this person says about my beliefs…..he has no idea….he just thinks he knows it all, but is apparently ‘a lone ranger’…..obsessed with his own opinions…..so, unless you have a brotherhood who all believe as you do, and who meet for worship regularly, you cannot even call yourself a “Christian”…. (1 Cor 1:10; Heb 10:24-25)

God’s spirit promotes unity, not disunity. There is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”…..not the divided mess that is Christendom.…nor in the meandering minds of those who think Christianity is just for them.

I have no problem with you @Aunty Jane.
Shalom.
J.

 

[face2face]

Please give no credence to anything this person says about my beliefs…..he has no idea….he just thinks he knows it all, but is apparently ‘a lone ranger’…..obsessed with his own opinions…..so, unless you have a brotherhood who all believe as you do, and who meet for worship regularly, you cannot even call yourself a “Christian”…. (1 Cor 1:10; Heb 10:24-25)

God’s spirit promotes unity, not disunity. There is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”…..not the divided mess that is Christendom.…nor in the meandering minds of those who think Christianity is just for them.

Jane, you have shown your erroneous position on Genesis 3 many times.

When I have time I will deal with Adam being made outside the Garden.

F2F

 

[face2face]

This is a fairly good summary actually….

Gen 2:7-9 in summary of the events in Gen 1, states as follows….

” then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. . . . .

15-25…..”The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said,“This at last is bone of my bonesand flesh of my flesh;she shall be called Woman,because she was taken out of Man.” (ESV)

The creation of the man came before the garden was planted.….Adam was “put“ in the garden, and so he was obviously created outside of it. Eve was created inside the garden but from Adam’s DNA. But what is the difference?

I do not understand the relevance of him being created “inside” or “outside”, as if outside of the garden was somehow off limits? The whole earth was created as a perfect home for all the creatures that God made to share life with us here on this planet. They were created first, so their existence was in all probability, both inside and outside of the garden.

They were commanded to “subdue” the earth outside of the garden, so it needed “taming” or to “be brought under man’s control” and maintained that way.
We all know what happens when things are not maintained by cultivation and care….nature takes over.

Adam was commissioned to name all the animals…no mean fete…..as he had to observe them all in order to give them an appropriate name……not something completed in a literal day……it was only after he had done that that he became acutely aware of the fact that he was the only creature without a mate….God then completed the 6th “day” with the creation of the one who was to “become the mother of everyone living”…..and “everything” was declared by God to be “very good”.

Since the mandate from the Creator was to “fill the earth” with their offspring, confinement to the garden is not indicated, as if there was a law against leaving it. In order to fill the earth (not just the garden) with their children, a large workforce would be needed to assist the original pair to populate the whole earth and extend the boundaries of their paradise home until the earth itself was a beautiful paradise, having the garden as their ‘blueprint’.
The only reason to bar entry to the garden after the fall was to prevent access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)

This is how I believe the scenario played out.…we see a guardian Cherub on duty, who began to entertain thoughts that would undo all that God purposed for the human race.….this rebel allowed himself to abuse his free will. He did not dismiss his wicked intentions. (James 1:15-15)

And the rest, as they say….is history….and here we are.

@Johann

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

Adam, was made in the open fields along with the animals to show him he was but dust, and that he was no different from the animals in nature.

He was a living breathing creature!

His training was to create in him the likeness of God, morally speaking, something the animal kingdom cannot do (amoral). The Garden was a place for him to develop that likeness (a training ground!)

When he sinned he returned to the open fields.

The important lesson is that Adam knew precisely where he was made, and why he was moved to the Garden.

Then Abraham asked, “Since I have undertaken to speak to the Lord (although I am but dust and ashes) Ge 18:27.

For he knows what we are made of; he realizes we are made of clay Ps 103:14.

Both go to the same place, both come from the dust, and to dust both return Ec 3:20.

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it. Ec 12:7.

However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 15:47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 1 Co 15:46–47.

Not just was he made of dust he was made with the beasts of the field and returned to them and so it is today

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

Adam, was made in the open fields along with the animals to show him he was but dust, and that he was no different from the animals in nature.

He was a living breathing creature!

His training was to create in him the likeness of God, morally speaking, something the animal kingdom cannot do (amoral). The Garden was a place for him to develop that likeness (a training ground!)

When he sin he returned to the open fields.

The important lesson is that Adam knew precisely where he was made, and why he was moved to the Garden.

Then Abraham asked, “Since I have undertaken to speak to the Lord (although I am but dust and ashes) Ge 18:27.

For he knows what we are made of; he realizes we are made of clay Ps 103:14.

Both go to the same place, both come from the dust, and to dust both return Ec 3:20.

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it. Ec 12:7.

However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 15:47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 1 Co 15:46–47.

Not just was he made of dust he was made with the beasts of the field and returned to them and so it is today

F2F

Right now, my head is spinning due to sleep deprivation. Brother, I would greatly appreciate it if you could quote Scripture references as much as possible. I’ve mentioned before that eschatology and prophecies are not my strong points.

I’ve watched hundreds of debates on these topics, primarily from rabbis, Muslims, Christian apologists, and Messianic Jews. There are significant disagreements in these discussions and across various perspectives.

I’m willing to give it a shot, but accurate exegesis and reliance on Scripture are essential for me. I also asked about Old Testament commentaries, as I currently have only one. Perhaps Aunty Jane could help with recommendations?

Shalom.
J.

 

[face2face]

Sleep well @Johann

"And Yahweh Elohim formed man"

The "covenant name" significantly is again introduced, because man is made in the "image and likeness of God", and so
designed to reflect His glory. The verb "formed" is better rendered "moulded".

Additional care was taken in his creation.

He was carefully moulded out of dust (clay), and then the breath of life breathed into him.

If the "breath of life" provided man with an immortal soul, all other forms of life, including "creeping things" must possess
immortal souls also — which is, of course, ludicrous.

The very word by which man is described in the Hebrew memorialises his earthy origin. The word for "man" is ha-adam, "the adam". It is related to adamah, ground, and also to adorn, red, suggesting red earth.

@Aunty Jane believes God's plan A was for man to live forever as dust creatures, and that Adam & Eve who are types of Christ and the Bride, cannot be saved. I have spent months and countless threads showing this is false teaching.

F2F

 

[Johann]

"And Yahweh Elohim formed man"

Gen 2:7 And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

Gen 1:26 And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our tzelem, after Our demut: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon ha'aretz (the earth).
Gen 1:27 So G-d created humankind in His own tzelem, in the tzelem Elohim (image of G-d) created He him; zachar (male) and nekevah (female) created He them.

Gen 2:7 And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat lechem, till thou return unto haadamah; for out of it wast thou taken; for aphar thou art, and unto aphar shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And HaAdam called the shem of his isha Chavah (Eve); because she was the Em kol chai.
Yahweh Elohim Formed Man

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָֽם מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַת־חַֽיִּים וַיְהִ֥י הָאָדָֽם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה"

"Vayitzer Yahweh Elohim et ha-adam min ha-adamah, vayipach be'apav nishmat chayim, vayehi ha-adam le-nefesh chayah."
Man Made in the Image and Likeness of God

Genesis 1:26-27 (Hebrew):
"וַיֹּ֨אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֜ים נַֽעֲשָׂ֤ה אָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמֵ֣נוּ כִּֽדְמוּתֵ֔נוּ וִֽירְד֖וּ בִּדְגַ֣ת הַיָּֽם וּבְעֹֽוף הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָ֖ה וּבְכָל־הָאָֽרֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶֽמֶשׂ הָרֹ֥מֵשׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ" "וַיִּבְרָ֥א אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם בְּצַלְמ֑וֹ בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֥א אֹתֽוֹ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָֽה"

"Vayomer Elohim na'aseh adam betsalmenu kidemutenu, viyerdu be-dgat ha-yam uve-of hashamayim u-ve-behemah u-ve-khol ha-aretz u-ve-khol ha-remes haromess al ha-aretz." "Vayivra Elohim et ha-adam betzalmo, betzelem Elohim bara otto, zakhar u-nekevah bara otam."

Breath of Life

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew):
"וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַת־חַֽיִּים"

"Vayipach be'apav nishmat chayim."
Man’s Earthly Origin

Genesis 3:19 (Hebrew):
"בְּזֵֽעַת־פָּנֶ֖יךָ תֹּֽאכַל־לֶ֑חֶם עַד־שׁוֹ֖בֶךָ אֶל־הָאֲדָמָֽה כִּֽי־מִֽן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֥ה לֲ֛קַחְתָּ וְכִֽי־עָפָ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה וְאֵ֥ל־עָפָֽר תָּשֽׁוֹב"

"Beze'at panecha tochal-lechem ad-shovecha el ha-adamah, ki min ha-adamah lakachta, ve-ki afar atah ve-el afar tashuv."
Hebrew Terms for Man and Ground

Man (אדם - ‘adam):

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָֽם..."

Ground (אדמה - adamah):

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "...מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה..."

Can you prove to me that when a saint die he/she is in a state of limbo-or with the Lord?

1. 2 Corinthians 5:8
NKJV: “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”
Greek: "θαρητός, ἡμῖν, καὶ εὐδοκῶμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἀπὸ τοῦ σώματος καὶ κατασκήναι πρὸς τὸν Κύριον."

"Tharetos, hemin, kai eudokomen mallon ekdēmēsai apo tou sōmatos kai kataskēnai pros ton Kurion."

2. Philippians 1:23
NKJV: “For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.”
Greek: "συμπιέζομαι δὲ ἐκ τῶν δύο, ἔχων τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ἀναλύσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι, πολύ γὰρ μᾶλλον ἄμεινον;"

"Sympieomai de ek tōn duo, echōn tēn epithymian analysai kai syn Christō einai, polu gar mallon ameinon;"

3. Luke 23:43
NKJV: “And Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.’”
Greek: "καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, Ἁσήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."

"Kai eipen autō ho Iēsous, Amēn soi legō, hōsēmeron met' emou esē en tō paradēsō."

4. Revelation 14:13
NKJV: “Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.’”
Greek: "καὶ ἤκουσα φωνὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ λέγουσαν, Γράψον, Μακάριοι οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἐν Κυρίῳ ἀπ' ἄρτι. Ναί, λέγει τὸ Πνεῦμα, ἵνα ἀναπαύσωνται ἀπὸ τῶν κόπων αὐτῶν, καὶ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ἀκολουθοῦσιν αὐτοῖς."

"Kai ēkousa phōnēn ek tou ouranou legousan, Grapson, Makarioi hoi nekroi hoi apothnēskontes en Kyriō ap' arti. Nai, legei to Pneuma, hina anapausōntai apo tōn kopōn autōn, kai ta erga autōn akolouthousin autois."

These passages affirm the belief that saints who die are indeed with the Lord, enjoying His presence and rest from their earthly labors.

J.

 

[face2face]

Gen 2:7 And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

Gen 1:26 And G-d said, Let Us make man in Our tzelem, after Our demut: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon ha'aretz (the earth).
Gen 1:27 So G-d created humankind in His own tzelem, in the tzelem Elohim (image of G-d) created He him; zachar (male) and nekevah (female) created He them.

Gen 2:7 And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat lechem, till thou return unto haadamah; for out of it wast thou taken; for aphar thou art, and unto aphar shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20 And HaAdam called the shem of his isha Chavah (Eve); because she was the Em kol chai.
Yahweh Elohim Formed Man

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָֽם מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַת־חַֽיִּים וַיְהִ֥י הָאָדָֽם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה"

"Vayitzer Yahweh Elohim et ha-adam min ha-adamah, vayipach be'apav nishmat chayim, vayehi ha-adam le-nefesh chayah."
Man Made in the Image and Likeness of God

Genesis 1:26-27 (Hebrew):
"וַיֹּ֨אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֜ים נַֽעֲשָׂ֤ה אָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמֵ֣נוּ כִּֽדְמוּתֵ֔נוּ וִֽירְד֖וּ בִּדְגַ֣ת הַיָּֽם וּבְעֹֽוף הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָ֖ה וּבְכָל־הָאָֽרֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶֽמֶשׂ הָרֹ֥מֵשׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ" "וַיִּבְרָ֥א אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם בְּצַלְמ֑וֹ בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֥א אֹתֽוֹ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָֽה"

"Vayomer Elohim na'aseh adam betsalmenu kidemutenu, viyerdu be-dgat ha-yam uve-of hashamayim u-ve-behemah u-ve-khol ha-aretz u-ve-khol ha-remes haromess al ha-aretz." "Vayivra Elohim et ha-adam betzalmo, betzelem Elohim bara otto, zakhar u-nekevah bara otam."

Breath of Life

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew):
"וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַת־חַֽיִּים"

"Vayipach be'apav nishmat chayim."
Man’s Earthly Origin

Genesis 3:19 (Hebrew):
"בְּזֵֽעַת־פָּנֶ֖יךָ תֹּֽאכַל־לֶ֑חֶם עַד־שׁוֹ֖בֶךָ אֶל־הָאֲדָמָֽה כִּֽי־מִֽן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֥ה לֲ֛קַחְתָּ וְכִֽי־עָפָ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה וְאֵ֥ל־עָפָֽר תָּשֽׁוֹב"

"Beze'at panecha tochal-lechem ad-shovecha el ha-adamah, ki min ha-adamah lakachta, ve-ki afar atah ve-el afar tashuv."
Hebrew Terms for Man and Ground

Man (אדם - ‘adam):

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֵ֥ת הָאָדָֽם..."

Ground (אדמה - adamah):

Genesis 2:7 (Hebrew): "...מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה..."

Can you prove to me that when a saint die he/she is in a state of limbo-or with the Lord?

1. 2 Corinthians 5:8
NKJV: “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”
Greek: "θαρητός, ἡμῖν, καὶ εὐδοκῶμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἀπὸ τοῦ σώματος καὶ κατασκήναι πρὸς τὸν Κύριον."

"Tharetos, hemin, kai eudokomen mallon ekdēmēsai apo tou sōmatos kai kataskēnai pros ton Kurion."

2. Philippians 1:23
NKJV: “For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.”
Greek: "συμπιέζομαι δὲ ἐκ τῶν δύο, ἔχων τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ἀναλύσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι, πολύ γὰρ μᾶλλον ἄμεινον;"

"Sympieomai de ek tōn duo, echōn tēn epithymian analysai kai syn Christō einai, polu gar mallon ameinon;"

3. Luke 23:43
NKJV: “And Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.’”
Greek: "καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, Ἁσήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."

"Kai eipen autō ho Iēsous, Amēn soi legō, hōsēmeron met' emou esē en tō paradēsō."

4. Revelation 14:13
NKJV: “Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.’”
Greek: "καὶ ἤκουσα φωνὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ λέγουσαν, Γράψον, Μακάριοι οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἐν Κυρίῳ ἀπ' ἄρτι. Ναί, λέγει τὸ Πνεῦμα, ἵνα ἀναπαύσωνται ἀπὸ τῶν κόπων αὐτῶν, καὶ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ἀκολουθοῦσιν αὐτοῖς."

"Kai ēkousa phōnēn ek tou ouranou legousan, Grapson, Makarioi hoi nekroi hoi apothnēskontes en Kyriō ap' arti. Nai, legei to Pneuma, hina anapausōntai apo tōn kopōn autōn, kai ta erga autōn akolouthousin autois."

These passages affirm the belief that saints who die are indeed with the Lord, enjoying His presence and rest from their earthly labors.

J.

Get some sleep J.
We can discuss this tomorrow
F2F