Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

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face2face

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Let’s consult your list…..
Thank you
Why did they suddenly realize that they were naked, when they had been naked all along?
Because their consciences were defiled
What did their nakedness mean now that they knew what evil was?
They experienced shame from sin
Why did they try to cover only their reproductive parts? What was sinful about them?
The Hebrew yada (know) signifies to know by observation or experimentally. In Genesis 4:1 this is associated with the sexual act. Adam and Eve became conscious of their nakedness as never before, and sexual desire became aggravated. This led to a state of self-consciousness and shame which is a reaction to sin. A sinner becomes self-conscious, whereas he should be God-conscious. The eyes of Adam and Eve were now full of themselves, whereas previously they were more conscious of God.

In Scripture, "nakedness" is symbolic of a state of sin. You can see this in Rev. 3:17; 16:15. It is recorded of Ahaz that "he made Judah
naked, and transgressed sore against Yahweh" 2Chron. 28:19.

Many places in the Scripture teach this!

Why did God provide long garments of skin, and where does it say that God killed animals to provide them. Why could he not have simply provided the clothing like the angels did when they appeared to man in human form?

Are you suggesting an animal can be skinned and still remain alive?

Where does it say that God sacrificed animals for them to be forgiven?
It's clear from this question you do not understand the nature of "a covering"

You need to think about this further with the whole Scripture in mind.

There is not a single statement of remorse from either of them because there was no basis upon which to forgive them.
I find it difficult to comprehend you dont believe the angles instructed the first pair now that sin had entered the world. Further more, you must believe their coverings were forcibly removed and then covered.

Does your God work that way with sin? I know JW's and this is not consistent with your teaching.

Adam was told what death would mean for them….they would return to the ground out of which they were created. (Gen 3:17-19) There is no mention of forgiveness, or of an afterlife of any kind.
Not only for him, but all his posterity which is the whole point of the law of sin and death (dominion) which God removed in His son
They accepted the fact that God meant what he said…evicted from their paradise home, they came to realize that God had abandoned them to largely reap what they had sown (in more ways than one)…..old age, sickness and death would now overtake them, but not until they experienced what death meant when their firstborn murdered his brother. Death had been seen in the animal kingdom, but no human had yet died until then.
God did not abandon their children however…..those who were plunged into this situation through no fault on their part. He implemented a solution right there in Eden. (Gen 3:15)
I'm curious, whether you understand the terms of the Covenant? From what you have written so far, I don't believe so.

You now know it was confirmed with an animal sacrifice, and a covering, but do you understand what God was planning for the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent? Do you know of the two lines in the earth?

How would God reverse the dominion which had now been lost through sin?

What did it mean that “the Lamb was slain from the founding of the world”? There was no mention of anything like that until after sin had entered into the human race……So the “founding of the world” was not the creation of the planet, but the beginning of sinful human existence after the fall. All of humanity was now tainted with the sin introduced into their DNA, and which would result in death. It was “the world of mankind” (kosmos) that needed saving, not the planet which was part of God’s flawless creation.

In the mind of God His Son (lamb) was slain meaning God foreknew sin would enter the World - I hope you dont believe Eden was plan A and Christ was plan B!

NO! Christ was in the mind of God well before the creation of this age.

Christ was always Plan A

“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”
Are the “all” in both instances, the same?
They cannot be…because the “all” pertaining to Adam, meant every single human being……but the “all” who will “in Christ” will be “made alive” are not all of humanity but only those who accept his kingship and follow his teachings. The lake of fire (everlasting destruction) is reserved for those who “do not know God“ because they don’t want to….and those who purport to know God but who “do not obey” the teachings of his son.…as Paul says…

“But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.” (2 Thess 1:7-10).
I'm not sure what your are trying to prove with your above statement and how that relates to God's treatment of A&E in the garden.

To be honest Jane I was hoping for you to deal with the principles of How God deals with sin and how the terms of the Covenant are given in Genesis 3:15 and then ratified with a sacrifice and covering in Genesis 3:20-22.

I think you can see the truth of what is being shown you, but you are being held back possibly because of your previously held position.

If you honestly believe A&E were NOT taught how to kill an animal and takes its skin, and make an offering to the Lord, then you would also struggle to understand the story of their children (Cain & Abel), of Abraham and the parting of animals and so on.

I know you from all that you have written in this forum and I know you will apply these things privately and study them for yourself.

BTW thanks for replying...means a lot

F2F
 
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face2face

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@Aunty Jane I'll push your understanding a little further, if I may.

When A&E were instructed to kill the animal and takes it's skin do you think they waited for it to me tanned? I dont! I believe God had these wet skins placed on them to feel the effects of their sin - it resulted in the death of an animal and they felt that death on their bodies.

"Wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

This is no difference in principle to an offeror under the law placing his hands on the animal

4:32 “ ‘But if he brings a sheep as his offering, for a sin offering, he must bring a flawless female. 4:33 He must lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it for a sin offering in the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered. Le 4:32–33.

F2F
 
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VictoryinJesus

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The forbidden tree placed where it had to be confronted often.

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
placed in the center
(midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?

Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".

It seems they had no intention of eating from the forbidden tree.

What was going on here?

Whether you take the story as literal or figurative, it begs many questions.

… (or the kjv has by reason of Him who has subjected the same in Hope. To me the first time futility or emptiness is mentioned is when the woman saw it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree desire to make one wise. Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
 
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St. SteVen

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“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”
Is the “all” in both instances, the same?
They cannot be…because the “all” pertaining to Adam, meant every single human being……but the “all” who will “in Christ” be “made alive” are not all of humanity but only those who accept his kingship and follow his teachings. The lake of fire (everlasting destruction) is reserved for those who “do not know God“ because they don’t want to….and those who purport to know God but who “do not obey” the teachings of his son.…as Paul says…
Good post, thanks.
Many want to MOVE the word "all" in this verse above to match their doctrine, because it doesn't as is.

It clearly says "all die" and "all will be made alive." The same ALL in both cases.

It doesn't say: All in Adam die, so all in Christ will be made alive.
What does it mean to be IN Adam anyway?

And what is the word "so" doing there? It means "in the same way".
As if to say, For in Adam all die, IN THE SAME WAY in Christ all will be made alive.
In the same way death applies tall, so also being made alive again applies to all.

Context helps. Death came through Adam, the resurrection of the dead comes through Christ.
Therefore: "all will be made alive." refers to the resurrection of the dead.
Will only those "in Christ" be raised from the dead? Will not all face "judgment"? (evaluation)

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

[
 

St. SteVen

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… (or the kjv has by reason of Him who has subjected the same in Hope. To me the first time futility or emptiness is mentioned is when the woman saw it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree desire to make one wise. Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Are you saying that the tree represented inevitable futility? The trigger for God's plan to redeem humankind?
I agree with that idea. It was part of the Logos/logic/reason/plan for humankind. The story of love and redemption.

[
 

JohnDB

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The forbidden tree placed where it had to be confronted often.

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
placed in the center
(midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?

Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".

It seems they had no intention of eating from the forbidden tree.

What was going on here?

Whether you take the story as literal or figurative, it begs many questions.
It was next to the tree of life.

The garden that is spoken of is an elaborate huge garden filled with "every good tree".

As such in the center is the focal point. And many gardens have some sort of focal point centerpiece in it. Most have a fountain or statue today but some have a small stand of trees or a large one as the centerpiece.

So if you visualize it....you have a choice:
Life or death. Good or evil.

The Genesis account is a poem....because it's narrative poetry. Kinda like a ballad but different. It's Hebrew poetry so getting too hung up on how someone translated this is not a good idea because Hebrew is a metaphoric language. That doesn't mean that this is allegorical. Sure some poetic license is taken where perfect accuracy is slightly bruised over poetic construction.

Like at the end of Chapter 1 where God said it was all "very good". Because what is intended is what you would say is "Holy". But that's not what was said as the poetic construction won't allow for that.
 

GodsGrace

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The forbidden tree placed where it had to be confronted often.

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
placed in the center
(midst) of the orchard (garden) of Eden?

Interestingly, Adam and Eve had to be deceived to "eat thereof".

It seems they had no intention of eating from the forbidden tree.

What was going on here?

Whether you take the story as literal or figurative, it begs many questions.
Eve was deceived.
Adam knew what he was doing.
 
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GodsGrace

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That sounds like propaganda to me....

And why Eve got double trouble....God knew snakes don't talk. :jest:
Some member had brought up the question as to WHY Adam ate the forbidden fruit KNOWING that he was doing what God commanded him not to do.
Of course there's no answer that we can be sure of...but the replies could be an interesting thread.
(I can't handle threads much anymore -- too busy).
 

GodsGrace

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@Aunty Jane I'll push your understanding a little further, if I may.

When A&E were instructed to kill the animal and takes it's skin do you think they waited for it to me tanned? I dont! I believe God had these wet skins placed on them to feel the effects of their sin - it resulted in the death of an animal and they felt that death on their bodies.

"Wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

This is no difference in principle to an offeror under the law placing his hands on the animal

4:32 “ ‘But if he brings a sheep as his offering, for a sin offering, he must bring a flawless female. 4:33 He must lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it for a sin offering in the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered. Le 4:32–33.

F2F
I agree with all you've written to the other member....
but God TOLD A and E to kill an animal? (to make the covering).
I don't remember this.
Could you post the verse please?
 

St. SteVen

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Some member had brought up the question as to WHY Adam ate the forbidden fruit KNOWING that he was doing what God commanded him not to do.
Of course there's no answer that we can be sure of...but the replies could be an interesting thread.
(I can't handle threads much anymore -- too busy).
What does the narrative tells us?

Genesis 3:1-3 NIV
ow the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden,
and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

--- PARODY ---

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because I know that
you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!

Indeed.

[
 

Stumpmaster

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23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Not all belong to Christ, nor are all "in Christ".

(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

(Rom 8:9) But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
 

Aunty Jane

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Many want to MOVE the word "all" in this verse above to match their doctrine, because it doesn't as is.

It clearly says "all die" and "all will be made alive." The same ALL in both cases.
I do not believe that it is the same meaning of that small word at all, because we know that “all“ humanity inherited sin from Adam with no exceptions…….it’s the reason why Jesus had to come from outside of Adam’s flawed DNA, to pay the price of redemption. Jehovah sent his son in that capacity…..to pay a sinless life for a sinless life. Jesus is “the last Adam” because his life paid for what the first Adam took away from us.

The majority who are alive when Christ comes as judge, will not come to him even while the time remains to do so in this world. There are only two roads….one leads to “life”…the other to “destruction”. (Matt 7:13-14)

The majority (many) are happy to travel the easy road, and to live a life alienated from the rules laid down in Scripture by the Creator, whom they either deny or disobey. But this so called freedom to do whatever you like, is simply another form of slavery….just to a different master.…one who does not care about those whom he can take away from God by deception. They are merely trophies in his own rebellion. The Bible is clear…their destiny is in “the lake of fire”. (Eternal death…like they never existed)
Universalism is a sad delusion.

“Like the days of Noah”, Jesus said his return would be (Matt 24:37-39)…..what are we experiencing now that is “like the days of Noah”? Look at the state of the human race and see…..the level of violence and immorality in a world divided against God, each other, and all that is good and righteous, at a time when we have no excuse to be this way. We are more educated now than at at any other time in history….but where has this education taken us? Down the road to complete extinction….and satan has used his minions to guide us down that track….we are well on our way, so unless God steps in soon, no one will survive. How many ways have wicked humans devised to kill each other? They are now more death dealing and heinous than most can imagine. There is an agenda at work that will take us to that point of no return……it was all prophesied.

Those alive in Noah’s day were swept along by the prevailing environment and lived a life that God could no longer tolerate since demonic interference had accelerated wickedness among the human race to such a degree, that to allow it to continue would interfere with the ultimate outworking of his purpose. We are at that point again. Speaking of the “great tribulation” to come, Jesus actually tells us that “unless these days were cut short, no flesh would be saved” (Matt 24:21-22)

The flood was a stop gap measure back then, to take things back to square one, but it did not remove sin from the human race, so Noah’s descendants continued to pass on this terrible inheritance. Only the sacrifice of the Christ would remove the cause of death…..which was then, yet future. God has his own timetable of events and nothing the devil can do will alter it…..
It doesn't say: All in Adam die, so all in Christ will be made alive.
What does it mean to be IN Adam anyway?
All who inherited sin from Adam will die, without exception……but all “in Christ” or all who accept Christ, have an opportunity to keep living, even when all around them perish. How did Noah survive the catastrophe that wiped out the entire human race along with every living, breathing thing that existed on the land? He followed the instructions given to him by his God…to the letter. God told him how to save himself and his family….he didn’t do it for him. So what is the lesson? Is it not the value of obedience in all things, in spite of the difficulty it may impose?

The task assigned to Noah was huge, and would take a great deal of time and effort, but God gave him the time and the instruction that would ultimately save the human race, and keep his purpose for us on track.
And what is the word "so" doing there? It means "in the same way".
As if to say, For in Adam all die, IN THE SAME WAY in Christ all will be made alive.
In the same way death applies tall, so also being made alive again applies to all.
When God told Noah of his intention to bring the flood upon a wicked world, he did not condemn all humanity outright because it says in 2 Peter 2:5…
”And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people.”

Noah was “a preacher of righteousness” and so all who saw what he was doing, and heard his message, had the option of coming onto the ark with him…..OTOH they also had no excuse to disbelieve him, but as Jesus said “they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away”……can we imagine the pounding on the ark once the waters began to swirl around them, asking to be let on board? But it wasn’t Noah who closed the door…..it was Jehovah. Once that door was shut, not further admittance was possible….again, what is the lesson?

What will be the eternal fate of those who perished in the flood? Only God knows. But he has already told us what the fate will be of those who deny him or disobey him in this “time of the end”. (2 Peter 3:3-7)

The “separating of the sheep from the goats” means everlasting life for the “sheep”…..but everlasting death for the “goats” who are consigned to the same place that is reserved for the devil and his hordes. (Matt 25:31-46) Not hell, but eternal destruction.

Context helps. Death came through Adam, the resurrection of the dead comes through Christ.
Therefore: "all will be made alive." refers to the resurrection of the dead.
Will only those "in Christ" be raised from the dead? Will not all face "judgment"? (evaluation)
Jesus himself confirms that the dead will rise….(John 5:28-29) even “those who practiced vile things” will be given an opportunity to change their ways, many having died in ignorance at times, or in nations that did not know God. But like the people of Noah’s day, we are in a judgment period. Those alive during these last days are given ample opportunity to get to know the God whom Jesus served….yet despite that ample opportunity, they will choose to not know God, and some will disobey despite claiming to know him. Some will even imagine that they are serving God acceptably during this time when he is due to arrive as judge, but he will reject them outright as those he “never knew”. (Matt 7:21-23)
1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
What is this scripture actually saying….?

What does “each in turn” mean here?
Christ was “the firstfruits”, or the first human to be raised as a spirit (1 Peter 3:18; John 3:13) “THEN”, or following on from that resurrection, Christ was to return to gather his elect (“those who belong to him”) by resurrecting them to heaven as he promised, but that was not to take place until Christ’s return. They would “sleep” in death, till then. (1 Thess 4:13-17)

The general resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29) will take place once Christ and his heavenly army have dispatched all opposers on earth who have refused to obey him and who reject his kingdom in favor of supporting their own kingdoms. This is why Jesus told his disciples to be “no part of the world”……because, to be “friends with the world” makes one an “enemy of God” (James 4:4) We are not to be any part of the way humans are governed because of who is the real ruler of this world. (1 John 5:19) There is a puppeteer behind the scenes working his deception….with the three most influential parts of his rulership….corrupt politics, greedy commercialism and false religion. He controls the world through all three by hooking into human imperfection, giving people what they want, rather than being content with what they need. Their “wants” are insatiable because they are based on what the world is seeking…..

”Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever. (1 John 2:15-17)

Where are we in all of this…?
 
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Stumpmaster

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The verse says "in Christ all", not "all in Christ".
What does "in Adam" mean? Are you, or were you, in Adam?

[
Yes, all are in Adam before they are in Christ, but not all are in Christ come Judgment Day, these being reprobate silver.

Eph 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,

(Jer 6:30) Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
(Rom 1:28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(2Ti 3:8) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
(Tit 1:16)
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 
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face2face

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Good post, thanks.
Many want to MOVE the word "all" in this verse above to match their doctrine, because it doesn't as is.

It clearly says "all die" and "all will be made alive." The same ALL in both cases.

It doesn't say: All in Adam die, so all in Christ will be made alive.
What does it mean to be IN Adam anyway?

Context is important when looking at a single verse in isolation.

"In Christ" qualified by Paul:

15:1 Now I want to make CLEAR for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Co 15:1–2.

1. The Gospel being the Power of God for Salvation as per Romans 1:1-7 MUST be received and believe on before the work of salvation can begin
2. This Gospel is the foundation upon which a person walks and lives
3. This Powerful Gospel is doing the work of salvation on those who have accepted its power in their lives to transform them into the image of Christ
4. If the message is "let go" there is no salvation otherwise they believed in vain

These opening points provide you insight into the "all in Christ" who will be made alive at Christs coming.

Can you provide context from the same chapter to show those outside of Christ (not in Christ) can be saved or are being saved?

Happy to review what evidence you have.

F2F