Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)

[Aunty Jane]

You add what is not there in Gods word. Satan and his angels were perfect-they chose sin in a perfect state and are judged already to eternal death.

That is an important point….God’s children, both in heaven and on earth, were not created with the defect of sin….they chose, of their own free will, to disobey their Creator and rightful Sovereign….it’s their disobedience that is sin…..unleashing a knowledge of evil, and this propensity to make bad decisions onto their children, Adam and his wife had nothing to offer to God by way of excuses for what they did, yet they tried to wriggle out of their guilt by blaming someone else. Eve blamed the serpent….Adam blamed Eve, and in turn God for giving him the woman….and so “pass the buck” was invented, and is still widely practiced to this day.

Perfect beings do not make mistakes, or errors in judgment….they make decisions in full knowledge about their intentions and knowing the consequences of their actions…..with their unique ability to project themselves into the future by imagining those consequences, who could plead ignorance?

There can be no excuse, and it was evident in their conduct that no remorse was felt about their sin, and no sacrifice was ever made by them in an effort to atone for what they did…..there was no price that they could pay to God for their sin that would undo the damage they caused. Only God could rescue their children by producing a sacrifice that would cover them….the sacrifice of a perfect sinless human, for the perfect sinless life that was taken from them. Jesus offered himself willingly…..

 

[Stumpmaster]

I don't think that applies to everyone. Who is "them"? Needs context.

Hebrews 9:15 NIV
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,
that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—
now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from
the sins committed under the first covenant.

[

The dimensions of dice stay the same no matter which way they roll, (he said cryptically)/

 

[face2face]

You add what is not there in Gods word. Satan and his angels were perfect-they chose sin in a perfect state and are judged already to eternal death.

You and Aunty Jane are often quick to provide supporting quotes but whenever you speak to any of your teachings from Genesis 1-3 you never provide quotes?

Why is that?

F2F

 

[face2face]

That is an important point….God’s children, both in heaven and on earth, were not created with the defect of sin….they chose, of their own free will, to disobey their Creator and rightful Sovereign….it’s their disobedience that is sin…..unleashing a knowledge of evil, and this propensity to make bad decisions onto their children, Adam and his wife had nothing to offer to God by way of excuses for what they did, yet they tried to wriggle out of their guilt by blaming someone else. Eve blamed the serpent….Adam blamed Eve, and in turn God for giving him the woman….and so “pass the buck” was invented, and is still widely practiced to this day.

Perfect beings do not make mistakes, or errors in judgment….they make decisions in full knowledge about their intentions and knowing the consequences of their actions…..with their unique ability to project themselves into the future by imagining those consequences, who could plead ignorance?

There can be no excuse, and it was evident in their conduct that no remorse was felt about their sin, and no sacrifice was ever made by them in an effort to atone for what they did…..there was no price that they could pay to God for their sin that would undo the damage they caused. Only God could rescue their children by producing a sacrifice that would cover them….the sacrifice of a perfect sinless human, for the perfect sinless life that was taken from them. Jesus offered himself willingly…..

Not one quote!
Nothing at all to support all those words...and so often I've witnessed you rebuking others for doing the same.
In this thread Adam & Eve we have seen the same but also a reluctance to enter the text altogether.

Why is that?

F2F

 

[Stumpmaster]

Nicely done. Thanks.
1) Divine Foreknowledge
2) Divine Predetermination
3) Human Volition (free will)
4) Divine Intervention

Our presuppositions drive interpretation.

Evangelicalism says that Divine Foreknowledge knew the "outcome" before the end.
And Divine Predetermination CHOSE the "outcome" beforehand.
Placing the weight of Human Volition (free will) ??? on those who were both foreknown and predetermined.
Concluding that Divine Intervention ONLY applies to those who were both foreknown and predetermined.

Universalism would say that Divine Foreknowledge saw redemption for all in the end.
Divine Predetermination chose some to be redeemed in this lifetime and other is the Age to come. "Each in turn..."
Human Volition (free will) has a role to play for all. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Divine Intervention was sealed in the Atonement and will culminate in the Age of Reconciliation.

[

Predetermined Group Discussion Point: The Future Exists Before It Happens.

Quote:
Here are three perspectives on the concept that the future exists before it happens:

1. Philosophical Determinism:
   • Some philosophers argue that the future is predetermined by the initial conditions of the universe and the laws of nature. According to this view, every event follows a causal chain, making the future inevitable.
   • In this deterministic framework, the future already exists in a sense, waiting to unfold according to these preexisting conditions.
2. Eternalism (Block Universe Theory):
   • Eternalism posits that time is like a block, where past, present, and future coexist. All moments exist simultaneously, and our perception of time as linear is an illusion.
   • From this perspective, the future is already part of the block, just as much as the past and present are.
3. Quantum Mechanics and Probability:
   • Quantum physics introduces uncertainty through probabilities. Even if we know the initial conditions, we can’t predict specific outcomes with certainty.
   • Some physicists argue that the future remains open until observed or measured, and it doesn’t fully exist until then.[Copilot]

 

[face2face]

Adam and his wife had nothing to offer to God by way of excuses for what they did, yet they tried to wriggle out of their guilt by blaming someone else. Eve blamed the serpent….Adam blamed Eve, and in turn God for giving him the woman….and so “pass the buck” was invented, and is still widely practiced to this day.

Perfect beings do not make mistakes, or errors in judgment….they make decisions in full knowledge about their intentions and knowing the consequences of their actions…..with their unique ability to project themselves into the future by imagining those consequences, who could plead ignorance?

There can be no excuse, and it was evident in their conduct that no remorse was felt about their sin, and no sacrifice was ever made by them in an effort to atone for what they did…..there was no price that they could pay to God for their sin that would undo the damage they caused. Only God could rescue their children by producing a sacrifice that would cover them….the sacrifice of a perfect sinless human, for the perfect sinless life that was taken from them. Jesus offered himself willingly…..

And yet God clothed them!

They exposed their shame by removing their fig leaf coverings and allowed God to cover them with the sacrifice (skin) of an animal.

Lev 17:11 & Hebrews 9:22

The question is why would God not leave them with their fig leaf coverings, if condemned as you say?

Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

So Aunty Jane - did Adam & Eve retain their own coverings OR forsake them confess their sins before accepting the covering of Jehovah's God choosing?

Your God would do all this and yet condemn them to death and not prosper!

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

Predetermined Group Discussion Point: The Future Exists Before It Happens.

That explains this, thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[

 

[face2face]

@Keiw @Aunty Jane @Mark51 @TheHC - Notice how Jehovah God is revealing His Character with the first pair?

 

[face2face]

That explains this, thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[

The all who will be made alive must "put" on Christ...notice Paul states "so IN CHRIST....."

Let me put this even clearer for you

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1.

Your Corinthian quote has Paul teaching inherited mortality leading "some" to enter Christ for imputed righteousness

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That explains this, thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The all who will be made alive must "put" on Christ...notice Paul states "so IN CHRIST....."

Let me put this even clearer for you

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1.

Your Corinthian quote has Paul teaching inherited mortality leading "some" to enter Christ for imputed righteousness

F2F

Thanks for weighing in on this.

Here's the best explanation I have ever read on this.

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[ cc: @Chadro

 

[Stumpmaster]

That explains this, thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[

Next thing, the second death.


(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:15) And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

(Rev 21:8) But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[face2face]

St. SteVen said:
That explains this, thanks.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Thanks for weighing in on this.

Here's the best explanation I have ever read on this.

1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[ cc: @Chadro

The present order of things is "all" die in Adam is the main issue, as God is a God of the Living not the Dead
(fully dead!). However, the Scripture / Gospel has provided more than sufficient guidance on how a person can become "in Christ".

Of course you would be fully aware both statements within this one verse are not exhaustive. You would need to go back to Genesis to understand the "all Adam" statement just as you would also need to read the Gospel records to understand how a person can be "in Christ"

Further to this you would also need to read 1 Corinthians 15:22 in context which it appears from this discussion that is yet to occur.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Next thing, the second death.


(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The second death is the death of the rejected at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev 20:6.

Just to make it clear so there is no ambiguity...the second death unlike the first for those raised upon Christ's return will have no awakening!

The point being made is those who die in the last death at the end of the thousands year reign will not be resurrected.

That's it!

God will be all and in all

F2F

 

[Stumpmaster]

The point being made is those who die in the last death at the end of the thousands year reign will not be resurrected.

Why make such an obvious point, given Scripture consigns those to whom the second death applies, to the Lake of Fire?

 

[face2face]

Why make such an obvious point, given Scripture consigns those to whom the second death applies, to the Lake of Fire?

Depends on what you think the lake of fire symbolises? The point is the dead remain dead!

 

[Stumpmaster]

Depends on what you think the lake of fire symbolises?

Matthew Henry Quote: Though he be our God in Christ, and now deals with us in a more kind and gracious way, yet he is in himself a consuming fire; that is, a God of strict justice, who will avenge himself on all the despisers of his grace, and upon all apostates. Under the gospel, the justice of God is displayed in a more awful manner, though not in so sensible a manner as under the law; for here we behold divine justice seizing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and making him a propitiatory sacrifice, his soul and body an offering for sin, which is a display of justice far beyond what was seen and heard on mount Sinai when the law was given.

The point is the dead remain dead!

Sure, everyone is "in Adam" but you have to be "in Christ" to be made alive, 1 Corinthians 15:22 again, For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Lambano]

Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)​

It looked good there.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)​

It looked good there.

The earliest evidence of landscape design.

Followed by fashion design with fig leaves.

"Make it work; make it work." - Tim Gunn

[

 

[face2face]

Matthew Henry Quote: Though he be our God in Christ, and now deals with us in a more kind and gracious way, yet he is in himself a consuming fire; that is, a God of strict justice, who will avenge himself on all the despisers of his grace, and upon all apostates. Under the gospel, the justice of God is displayed in a more awful manner, though not in so sensible a manner as under the law; for here we behold divine justice seizing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and making him a propitiatory sacrifice, his soul and body an offering for sin, which is a display of justice far beyond what was seen and heard on mount Sinai when the law was given.

Lake of fire is one of the many symbolic phrases for a permanent death in the grave. It's the most Gracious thing God can allow for one who rejects Him.

Sure, everyone is "in Adam" but you have to be "in Christ" to be made alive, 1 Corinthians 15:22 again, For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Correct, you must be "in" Christ to be saved...no other way

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Keiw @Aunty Jane @Mark51 @TheHC - Notice how Jehovah God is revealing His Character with the first pair?

Let’s consult your list…..
Why did they suddenly realize that they were naked, when they had been naked all along?

What did their nakedness mean now that they knew what evil was?

Why did they try to cover only their reproductive parts? What was sinful about them?

Why did God provide long garments of skin, and where does it say that God killed animals to provide them. Why could he not have simply provided the clothing like the angels did when they appeared to man in human form?

Where does it say that God sacrificed animals for them to be forgiven? There is not a single statement of remorse from either of them because there was no basis upon which to forgive them.

Adam was told what death would mean for them….they would return to the ground out of which they were created. (Gen 3:17-19) There is no mention of forgiveness, or of an afterlife of any kind.
They accepted the fact that God meant what he said…evicted from their paradise home, they came to realize that God had abandoned them to largely reap what they had sown (in more ways than one)…..old age, sickness and death would now overtake them, but not until they experienced what death meant when their firstborn murdered his brother. Death had been seen in the animal kingdom, but no human had yet died until then.
God did not abandon their children however…..those who were plunged into this situation through no fault on their part. He implemented a solution right there in Eden. (Gen 3:15)

What did it mean that “the Lamb was slain from the founding of the world”? There was no mention of anything like that until after sin had entered into the human race……So the “founding of the world” was not the creation of the planet, but the beginning of sinful human existence after the fall. All of humanity was now tainted with the sin introduced into their DNA, and which would result in death. It was “the world of mankind” (kosmos) that needed saving, not the planet which was part of God’s flawless creation.

“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”
Is the “all” in both instances, the same?
They cannot be…because the “all” pertaining to Adam, meant every single human being……but the “all” who will “in Christ” be “made alive” are not all of humanity but only those who accept his kingship and follow his teachings. The lake of fire (everlasting destruction) is reserved for those who “do not know God“ because they don’t want to….and those who purport to know God but who “do not obey” the teachings of his son.…as Paul says…

“But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.” (2 Thess 1:7-10).