Why was "the Tree" placed in the center of the garden (orchard)
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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I would imagine that if someone put a tree like that in your garden... (orchard)
You'd make short work of it. - LOL
--- PARODY ---
God: Thou shalt not eat thereof...
Adam: Got it.
NEXT DAY
God: What was that roaring noise?
Adam: It's called a chain saw.
God: You didn't.
Adam: That thing was a nuisance.
God: I put it there for a reason.
Adam: I cut it down for a reason. I guess we're even.
God: (sigh) Back to the drawing board.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Metaphorically everyone partakes of forbidden fruit in this life. Good and evil are integral to Judgment, and vice versa.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Any disobedience to God is analogous to the eating of fruit from the TOTKOGAE.
The conflict between God and the Opposer who tempts and influences humanity to disobey God's Will is resolved in Christ through the shedding of His blood for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant.
(Heb 9:11) But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
(Heb 9:12) nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
face2face
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The Tree of Life occupied a place in the "midst of the garden" with the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" (cp. Gen 3:3). Here were symbolically provided the two choices for mankind: obedience or sin; life or death.
F2F
How did you conclude that the Tree of Life was located in the middle (the midst) of the garden. (orchard)
And did God encourage, or even inform them, about the Tree of Life?
[
Valid point, thanks.
Only under the first covenant? The Atonement was...
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
How do we obtain eternal redemption?
Is this something we do not already have in Christ Jesus?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What’s missing in your parody?
The fact that this one tree was not theirs to do with as they pleased….God had claimed that one tree as his personal property….he alone would decide what was ‘good and what was bad’ for his human creation. It wasn’t the tree itself or its fruit that was death dealing, but what that tree represented….as Creator, it was God’s Sovereign right to dictate the limits of the freedom he gave to his intelligent creation.
Partaking of that one tree would unleash dire consequences, not just on Adam and his wife, and their future offspring, but in orchestrating the deception of the woman and encouraging the theft, the devil also merited death.….but not immediately….God would use this turn of events to his own advantage….and in turn to the advantage of all who learned the value of obedience…in reaping what they had sown.
Stealing from one’s Sovereign was a capital offense…..and the offenders paid with their lives….the instigator, however would serve God’s purpose for a time, before going off into “the lake of fire” himself, along with his brother angels who joined him in rebellion….which is eternal annihilation.
face2face
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Adam's spiritual requirements were provided for in the tree of life.
From Rev 2:7 it appears that the tree of life was a symbol of immortality, and this is supported by a description of its lifegiving
qualities as described by the Elohim in Gen 3:22. What's important is understanding the tree could not impart immortality never! It's merely a symbol.
The tree of life is likened to the Divine Wisdom here Prov. 3:18, the fruit of the righteous here Prov. 11:30, a wholesome tongue here Prov. 15:4, and so forth. They all, being related to the Truth lead to life eternal 1 Pet 1:23-25.
1:23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God. 1:24 For all flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of the grass; the grass withers and the flower falls off, 1:25 but the word of the Lord endures forever. 1 Pe 1:23–25.
Midst
The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food. (Now the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the orchard.) Ge 2:8–9.
The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit from the trees of the orchard; 3:3 but concerning the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the orchard God said, ‘You must not eat from it, and you must not touch it, or else you will die.’ ” Ge 3:1–3.
Hope that helps
F2F
face2face
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I'm not going to be dogmatic on this but my view is the Elohim (angels) instructed the pair in the cool of the evening each night as per Gen 3:8
I believe they were immature in the things of God.
8:5 You who are naive (Adam & Eve), discern wisdom! And you fools, understand discernment! 8:6 Listen, for I will speak excellent things, and my lips will utter what is right. 8:7 For my mouth speaks truth, and my lips hate wickedness. 8:8 All the words of my mouth are righteous; there is nothing in them twisted or crooked. 8:9 All of them are clear to the discerning and upright to those who find knowledge. 8:10 Receive my instruction rather than silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold. 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies, and desirable things cannot be compared to her. 8:12 “I, wisdom, live with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion. 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate arrogant pride and the evil way and perverse utterances. 8:14 Counsel and sound wisdom belong to me; I possess understanding and might.
Pr 8:5–14.
F2F
Stumpmaster
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Yes, that is the point of this verse . . .
(Heb 9:15) And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
. . . that in so much that His death took place for the transgressions that were under the first covenant He is set to be the mediator of a new covenant, the old one now being out of the way, so to speak.
face2face
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This teaching of "the knowledge of good and evil" is an expression denoting the attainment of adulthood. Before they partook
of this tree, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence and immaturity, in that they did not comprehend experimentally the things that make for good and those that make for evil.
Here is the challenging point @St. SteVen ...did God intend them to partake of it at a future time?
Can you see the obedient example of the Lord Jesus here? Phil. 2:6
who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped Php 2:6.
she took some of its fruit and ate it Gen 3:6.
She grasped at equality with the Elohim
The change was instantaneous: "they knew that they were naked." They were suddenly projected into a state of maturity by their
own indiscretion!
F2F
of this tree, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence and immaturity, in that they did not comprehend experimentally the things that make for good and those that make for evil.
Here is the challenging point @St. SteVen ...did God intend them to partake of it at a future time?
Can you see the obedient example of the Lord Jesus here? Phil. 2:6
who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped Php 2:6.
she took some of its fruit and ate it Gen 3:6.
She grasped at equality with the Elohim
The change was instantaneous: "they knew that they were naked." They were suddenly projected into a state of maturity by their
own indiscretion!
F2F
face2face
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Good & Evil
What's also interesting @St. SteVen the "evil" they experienced was the working of the law of sin and death; the "good" brought home to
them a recognition of the need of a covering. @Keiw
God in providing the covering (sacrifice) was an act of Grace and instructed them they would not remain in this hopeless state forever.
F2F
What's also interesting @St. SteVen the "evil" they experienced was the working of the law of sin and death; the "good" brought home to
them a recognition of the need of a covering. @Keiw
God in providing the covering (sacrifice) was an act of Grace and instructed them they would not remain in this hopeless state forever.
F2F
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I don’t think that Scripture means what you think it does…..it has more to do with the salvation of people in all nations, not just the Christians in the known world of that time. Christianity spread throughout the lands where Christians took the Christian message of the Kingdom of God.….but only after a remnant of Jews had responded to Christ’s teachings….his audience were exclusively Jewish….but that didn’t mean that only Christianized Jews merited salvation because Peter was instructed to introduce Gentile members and baptize them. Cornelius was the first of many Gentiles to come directly to Jesus instead of becoming Jewish proselytes first. They did so by water immersion, in symbol of their new life in Christ.
Jews did not practice baptism because they did not choose to become God’s worshippers….they were born into a dedicated nation. But individuals could choose to become Christians of their own free will.
It is true that Jesus died to redeem those among mankind who can learn from the mistakes of others, and who can obey his teachings in all things…..what it means for the disobedient ones and those who run ahead of the Scriptures and decide things for themselves, is what the prophet Samuel said to a disobedient King Saul…..and it still applies…..he was told to destroy all the belongings of the Amalekites, but the people wanted to spare the best of their flocks and herds ostensibly to sacrifice to Jehovah. Saul listened to the people instead of obeying the direct command of his God….there was a hard lesson in this for him….
”Samuel replied, “Has the Lord as much pleasure in your burnt offerings and sacrifices as in your obedience? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. He is much more interested in your listening to him than in your offering the fat of rams to him. For rebellion is as bad as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as bad as worshiping idols. And now because you have rejected the word of Jehovah, he has rejected you from being king.” (TLB)
So when Saul claimed that he had been obedient to God…it wasn’t true. All the sacrifices in the world could not equal simply obeying God in all things, no matter what he thought. God knows what’s going on in the heart. He’s heard every kind of justification.
Redemption is a gift from God, but like all good things from God, it is conditional upon continuing obedience.
Giving free will to his children was risky because they had to the ability to choose to disobey. But there is only one thing that God cannot give himself….”love”…..and the loyal obedience that his Sovereignty requires.…it comes from love of God, not love of the reward…..although there are large rewards, that is not to be the primary motive….conversely, disobedience results in alienation from God and unless there is repentance there can be no reconciliation.
God did not create robots, but free willed creatures who could reciprocate his cardinal quality. (John 4:24)
Love engenders love and the fear of displeasing that one and losing their close relationship is unthinkable!
The angel who became satan, loved himself more than he loved God….and he plotted a way to get worship for himself at God’s expense, not caring that his actions would cost the humans their life.
Eve would have been perfectly happy with God’s amazing provisions had not the devil suggested that there was much more, but that God was holding something back, to which they had a right...and she believed him. In turn, the man was so besotted by his new bride that he loved her more than he loved his God.
Do you see the pattern? (Matt 10:37-38)
No…..there is 1000 years of Christ’s rulership…..and at the end of that period, the human race will have been brought back to their original sinless condition to face the devil one last time (Rev 20:1-3)….those who fall for the old tricks, will join him in the lake of fire where he and his hordes will be eliminated from existence forever….never to spoil God’s plans again.
Jesus provides the means of salvation, but only if we put in the effort to qualify for everlasting life by obeying his teachings….all of them.
Taken
Well-Known Member
The whole of the garden were plants “good for food”.
In the midst..were two particular trees….
One expressly to avoid…period.
“Midst”….indicating something particular about these trees, so expressly identified, and openly visible rather than hidden in a corner.
Animals were brought to Adam, and he given Freewill to name them, with whatever word he uttered, so would be that animal called.
Regarding the TREES…a forbidding was given Adam to NOT pay attention to a PARTICULAR Tree…
This did not impede Adams freewill…BUT rather was Adams introduction to Consider Gods Directive….or for Adam to allow his own curiosity to DO that which God Advised Against….AND…suffer the CONSEQUENCE that God had forewarned Adam, WOULD Be his consequence FOR NOT following Gods Directive.
The SAME theme is revealed throughout the whole of Scripture…God directs “this” to be a “good” FREEWILL choice for manKind…and “that” FREEWILL choice for manKInd will invoke “negative” consequences.
And the BIG Picture….as a man LIVES and BREATHES in his natural BODY….his curiosity may invoke him to MAKE choices “God” did not direct as “good” choices….and OOPS the negative “consequence” promptly is revealed…..AND??
AS LONG AS that man IS still alive in his natural body….he has amply time to “ASK” God for forgiveness, for distrusting Gods directions..
Once a man is bodily Dead…”his asking for forgiveness has EXPIRED.”
Since….NO asking for forgiveness is thereafter possible….NEITHER is forgiveness GIVEN, for what was not asked for.
And there in lies the mystery…
God is JUST….
JUSTICE is NOT giving, forcing, what is NOT freely ASKED FOR….
Our Governmental Justice system is “supposed” to operate in the same manner…
A wrong choice has a “consequence”….pre-revealed IN the laws.
An accused defendant has the right to admit his wrong and ASK for a pardon, for mercy, for leniency…..Claim he did not commit the wrong or smugly be content with his wrong actions and dare for the negative consequence to be appointed to him as a badge of pride.
It’s a life lesson…Every choice we make has a consequence…some good, some not so good.
God bless you.
Glory to God
Taken
I don't think that applies to everyone. Who is "them"? Needs context.
Hebrews 9:15 NIV
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,
that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—
now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from
the sins committed under the first covenant.
[
Nicely done. Thanks.
1) Divine Foreknowledge
2) Divine Predetermination
3) Human Volition (free will)
4) Divine Intervention
Our presuppositions drive interpretation.
Evangelicalism says that Divine Foreknowledge knew the "outcome" before the end.
And Divine Predetermination CHOSE the "outcome" beforehand.
Placing the weight of Human Volition (free will) ??? on those who were both foreknown and predetermined.
Concluding that Divine Intervention ONLY applies to those who were both foreknown and predetermined.
Universalism would say that Divine Foreknowledge saw redemption for all in the end.
Divine Predetermination chose some to be redeemed in this lifetime and other is the Age to come. "Each in turn..."
Human Volition (free will) has a role to play for all. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
Divine Intervention was sealed in the Atonement and will culminate in the Age of Reconciliation.
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
You add what is not there in Gods word. Satan and his angels were perfect-they chose sin in a perfect state and are judged already to eternal death.
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