Why did our Redeemer need to be both God and Man?

[LuxMundy]

This raises an interesting question: Where, if not in heaven, were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob before Jesus "re-opened" heaven? I recall the account of Jesus saying they weren't dead. Matt. 22:32, Mark 12:26.

Limbo.

 

[RedFan]

Limbo.

With all those unbaptized babies floating by, just counting their toes?

 

[LuxMundy]

With all those unbaptized babies floating by, just counting their toes?

With all other just souls, including infants, awaiting entry into Heaven.

 

[RedFan]

With all other just souls awaiting entry into Heaven.

What was Limbo like? I see the parable (Luke 16:19-31) about poor Lazarus being escorted by angels to hang out in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man hoping to join them or at least to have his five brothers do so. Must have been a cheery way station, no?

 

[LuxMundy]

What was Limbo like? I see the parable (Luke 16:19-31) about poor Lazarus being escorted by angels to hang out in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man hoping to join them or at least to have his five brothers do so. Must have been a cheery way station, no?

Jesus mentions "Abraham's Bosom", or "Limbo", in that parable because it existed, just as He referred to Heaven in parables. You know I haven't been to Limbo, but since it was a kingdom that preceded the Kingdom of Heaven, I don't see why it would've been a hell for just souls.

 

[RedFan]

Jesus mentions "Abraham's Bosom," or "Limbo," in that parable because it existed, just as He referred to Heaven in parables. You know I haven't been to Limbo, but since it was a kingdom that preceded the Kingdom of Heaven, I don't see why it would've been a hell for just souls.

Makes sense to me.

 

[face2face]

This raises an interesting question: Where, if not in heaven, were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob before Jesus "re-opened" heaven? I recall the account of Jesus saying they weren't dead. Matt. 22:32, Mark 12:26.

Dead as Scripture teaches!

 

[face2face]

Jesus is the Word incarnate (Jn. 1:14), the same Word identified as being with God and as God in Jn. 1:1, and thus He's the "Son of God."

What you can't see is how the Word is about Manifestation NOT incarnation.

You haven't been revealed this truth yet.

He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. 1 Ti 3:16.

While being raised up in Sin's Flesh and overcoming it he, Jesus was vindicated (made right) by the Spirit.

If you understood how this works you would see God's other children go through the same process.

Try driving on the same lane as the Apostles!

F2F

 

[LuxMundy]

What you can't see is how the Word is about Manifestation NOT incarnation.

"The Word was God" (Jn. 1:1) and "the Word was made flesh" (Jn. 1:14). That is the definition of incarnation: "to give bodily form and substance to".

Dead as Scripture teaches!

God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38). The spiritual part of ourselves given to us by God is called the "breath of life", or the "soul" (Gen. 2:7), and it's immortal, and thus we don't die even after our physical part (the body) does, then the day will come when our body and soul will be rejoined.

 

[face2face]

"The Word was God" (Jn. 1:1) and "the Word was made flesh" (Jn. 1:14). That is the definition of incarnation: "to give bodily form and substance to."

That is your definition of the Word made Flesh. its not the Bibles definition - big different asoul! you are importing so many non Biblical concepts you might as well write your own Bible. Stay within the confines of Scripture and you will do well.

Your god-man theology from John 1 cannot prove that Jesus and God are of one substance, existing as two persons within the same being, nor does it prove that Jesus was incarnated as God and man, possessing the natures, attributes and characteristics of God and humans.

It's impossible for you to prove that the hypostatic union is a Biblical concept. This aspect of the incarnation must necessarily be imported into Scripture, for it simply does not exist there in any form. It is merely a piece of theological speculation upon one aspect of Trinitarian Christology.

What would be nice here is honesty on your part, which I get the feeling will not be forthcoming. Most genuine Trinitarians I've spoken with admit the imported doctrine.

God is not of the dead, but the living (Ex. 3:6, Matt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38). The spiritual part of ourselves given to us by God is called the "breath of life," or "soul," (Gen. 2:7), and it's immortal, and thus we don't die even after our physical part (the body) does, then the day will come when our body and soul will be rejoined.

The Bible speaks of us having no advantage over the animals which share the same breathe.

Platonic teaching has tickled your ears and moved up into your mind and taken possession. Your faculties are now fully utilised to conjuring up notions of things which don't exist.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@asoul

Out of interest do you know what the word manifest means? And how Scripture reveals the workings of it?

You missed that I sense!

F2F

 

[LuxMundy]

That is your definition of the Word made Flesh. its not the Bibles definition [...]

The very act of something fleshless becoming flesh is an incarnation. Again, in Scripture, we have an example of that: "the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1) and "the Word was made flesh" (Jn. 1:14).

The Bible speaks of us having no advantage over the animals which share the same breathe.

What do you mean by humans having no advantage over the animals?

 

[face2face]

The very act of something fleshless becoming flesh is an incarnation. Again, in Scripture, we have an example of that: "the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1) and "the Word was made flesh." (Jn. 1:14)

No, the very act of Logos becoming flesh is NOT God becoming sins flesh which is impossible! But God revealing Himself through that Flesh.

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Romans 5:1

But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinth 15:57

I just realized it's actually useless quoting Scripture to you asoul!

You believe the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. But this is not enough to prove Trinitarianism. You also need to prove that the reverse is true: ie. that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You must prove that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are united in substance as three persons comprising one being Who is God. All of this must be achieved using exclusively Biblical concepts derived solely from Scripture.

I know that you know you can't do this...so where does that place you?

Go into Scripture (not creeds) and search how God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself.

Once you have done this...inform me how we as Sons of God do likewise (how God manifests His will through us!)

What do you mean by humans having no advantage over the animals?

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. Eccles 3:19

This truth is the basis of every Scripture concerning the fate of man and beast.

F2F

 

[LuxMundy]

No, the very act of Logos becoming flesh is NOT God becoming sins flesh which is impossible!

The Koine Greek word for "flesh" is "σάρξ" (sarx), and one of its definitions is "flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew", such as that of a human. In Jn. 1:1;14, we read, "The Word was God", and "the Word was made flesh (human, or man), and lived among us [...]". You even acknowledged that Jesus is human, a man, back in post #18. The very act of something fleshless becoming flesh, e.g., human, or man, is an incarnation. Unlike other humans, Jesus, the Word Incarnate, is a human, or man, Who is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. Eccles 3:19

This truth is the basis of every Scripture concerning the fate of man and beast.

Yet, humans have dominion over all other animals (Gen. 1:26). Do you know why?

 

[PGS11]

Because Jesus had to take on flesh and a human soul and raise it up to heaven no other human being that has ever exist would be worthy of the sacrifice that saves us.He existed from the beginning as the word ( Gospel of John) and came taking on flesh and a soul raising his soul up to heaven which is what he came to do opening heaven to humanity.Before Jesus no soul could enter heaven.It was Gods plan to save humanity.
He is the first born the new Adam the son of man.Humanity was raised up from its fallen state in Jesus and heaven was opened to those who believe and repent.God gave his only son to be sacrificed to save us you must be able to see the great act of love and how much Jesus loves humanity he choose to come to save us he didn't have to.Its the greatest act of love in the history of humanity by God himself.

 

[LuxMundy]

Because Jesus had to take on flesh and a human soul and raise it up to heaven no other human being that has ever exist would be worthy of the sacrifice that saves us.He existed from the beginning as the word ( Gospel of John) and came taking on flesh and a soul raising his soul up to heaven which is what he came to do opening heaven to humanity.Before Jesus no soul could enter heaven.It was Gods plan to save humanity.
He is the first born the new Adam the son of man.Humanity was raised up from its fallen state in Jesus and heaven was opened to those who believe and repent.God gave his only son to be sacrificed to save us you must be able to see the great act of love and how much Jesus loves humanity he choose to come to save us he didn't have to.Its the greatest act of love in the history of humanity by God himself.

We're in agreement about that.

 

[face2face]

The Koine Greek word for "flesh" is "σάρξ" (sarx), and one of its definitions is "flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew," such as that of a human. In Jn. 1:1;14, we read, "The Word was God," and "the Word was made flesh (human, or man), and lived among us." You even acknowledged that Jesus is human, a man, back in post #18. The very act of something fleshless becoming flesh, e.g., human, or man, is an incarnation. Unlike other humans, Jesus, the Word Incarnate, is a human, or man, Who is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)

Yet, humans have dominion over all other animals (Gen. 1:26). Do you know why?

Becoming repetitive asoul?

You never came back to my question about "manifest" and your understanding of how God manifested Himself through Sins flesh?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh (Jesus), Romans 8:1-3

Explain how God condemned sin in the body and nature of Christ?

This should be good

At the end of this chat you will either be confronted with the real Jesus Christ or you will remain in ignorance.

F2F

 

[LuxMundy]

Becoming repetitive asoul?

You said that the Word becoming flesh isn't God becoming "sins flesh", but I didn't say the Word became a sinful human. So, is asking me, "Becoming repetitive asoul?" your only response to the following?:

"The Koine Greek word for "flesh" is "σάρξ" (sarx), and one of its definitions is "flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew", such as that of a human. In Jn. 1:1;14, we read, "The Word was God", and "the Word was made flesh (human, or man), and lived among us". You even acknowledged that Jesus is human, a man, back in post #18. The very act of something fleshless becoming flesh, e.g., human, or man, is an incarnation. Unlike other humans, Jesus, the Word Incarnate, is a human, or man, Who is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh (Jesus), Romans 8:1-3

Explain how God condemn sin in the body and nature of Christ?

This should be good

Rom. 8:3 couldn't be and isn't saying that Jesus is sinful, and that God the Father condemned sin in Him, because Jesus is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)

 

[face2face]

Rom. 8:3 couldn't be and isn't saying that Jesus is sinful, and that God the Father condemned sin in Him, because Jesus is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)

Your theology can go no further asoul.
If you are unable to read clear Scripture and bring your gospel in line with the Apostles Gospel you ought to seriously think about your understanding and what makes up your faith.
Leave it with you
F2F

 

[LuxMundy]

Your theology can go no further asoul.
If you are unable to read clear Scripture and bring your gospel in line with the Apostles Gospel you ought to seriously think about your understanding and what makes up your faith.
Leave it with you
F2F

If I'm the one who doesn't have a clear understanding of Rom. 8:3, then prove it by explaining how Jesus could've been sinful, and how God the Father could've condemned sin in Him, when Jesus is without sin. (1 Jn. 3:5)