Who Really Are The 144,000?

[rebuilder 454]

When Revelation 6 is read, we can see that the six seal is opened and there are signs of the sun, moon and stars. When Matthew 24 is read, we can see that Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. It is also marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Revelation 6 we can see that the wrath of God is about to begin. In Matthew 24 we can tell that the tribulation is over. Can you not see this?. The 7th seal containing the trumpets are the wrath of God.
Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 6, Matthew 24 and Revelation 14 shows the second coming when the Lord comes for the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE WRATH. It is a HARVEST. The Lord remains in the clouds and sends His angels

Revelation 11, Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 show when Jesus returns toward the end of wrath for Armageddon and then to set up His kingdom. This is the second advent when Jesus returns to the earth.



All these years and you still haven't figured out that Jesus comes for a harvest before wrath at the 6th seal and then returns at the end of wrath and sets up His kingdom. And that doesn't even count not understanding when He comes for the Church before the seals are opened. The Lord is at the door. WATCH as instructed.

You blew a hole in their doctrine so huge an aircraft carried could fit through it.
I chuckled at their attempts to reframe the advents of Jesus and firstfruit Jews.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where are these great men of God that are able to see? I have yet to see one that understands the order of Revelation. Most spend their time letting their imagination run instead simply believing what is written. Many follow those that taught the Church had replaced Israel and had not the faith to believe that God would raise Israel as a nation, just as the Word clearly says.


It's clear you know much and understand very little. Not one thing you said agrees with the Word of God. All made up instead of just believing the written Word. Oh, and welcome to the board brother.


When God says there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel, that's what He means. He does not need us to make up things that are plainly written. When symbolism is used it's pretty easy to tell. This does not give us a license to reject what is written.


Oh I detect the spirit of Churchology. Who do you strudy under?

not only that, but they fail MISERABLY at not even acknowledging that the 144 k are FIRSTFRUITS , Or a portion of a whole.
It is so silly because that AUTOMATICALLY points to 2 raptures, or two SEPARATE harvests.
IOW, the 144k can ONLY be Jews, because nothing else fits.
Kinda like it plainly says.

 

[The Light]

I do not teach the so-called replacement theology. Actually, it is "Election Theology" or "Inclusion Theology"

"Inclusion Theology"? That's concerning. Sounds woke.

But I will let Christ answer your charges against His Word:
Matthew 21:42-45

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."

Is that God's infallible, undeniable truth, or God's amillennial antisemitism and replacement theology? Every man and woman has to decide for themselves based on their hermeneutic. God's word of truth or man's word of deception. Let God be true and every man a liar is my God-breathed system of interpretation. The only hermeneutic that will prevail.

Romans 11

8 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

You clearly do not know who I am and where I come from. Be careful. Hebrews 13:2.

You are one of the two witnesses. Moses, I suspect as the creek behind my house was red this morning and the koi pond was overrun with frogs and flies.

All kidding aside, I know you are not here by accident. When you were in seminary school I went to the real school. You were taught knowledge by men when I went where I was instructed and was watching the impossible over and over.

Yet you have not refuted my position with Scripture yet. I am waiting.

The scripture itself has refuted your claims. You take a plainly worded scripture and claim it means something else. It means what it says.

Really, do you ever compare Scripture with Scripture instead of making up personal views about who are the firstfruits.

First fruits are first fruits of the harvest. EXACTLY what it says. We don't need to make anything up.

Here God puts the two feasts together. The first feast of the harvest of the firstfruits, and the feast of Tabernacles when they gather in the harvest at the end of the year (Exodus 34:22).

No. God did not put two feasts together. You put two feasts together. They were told all men were to appear before God on these three feasts. They are all separate feasts that occur at separate times. It's simple enough. Why the need to make anything up?

Exodus 23
14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.

15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)

16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God.

The question is do you really know who the first fruits really are that the Lord talked about? It depends if you have carnal eyes or spiritual eyes.

The first fruits of the second harvest are EXACTLY who God said they are. They are 144,000 virgins from the twelve tribes. It's simple. Believe what is written and stay on the trail or start making things up and get off the trail.

And thanks for a warm welcome to this thirsty forum that need to hear the Gospel Truth.

You are welcome. I look forward to the challenge as you have received much schooling. So have I.

 

[The Light]

You blew a hole in their doctrine so huge an aircraft carried could fit through it.
I chuckled at their attempts to reframe the advents of Jesus and firstfruit Jews.

You would think a few would wake up and realize that what they have been taught does not agree with the Word of God. Who do they think the foolish virgins are? It's not those that are watching and ready as instructed.

 

[The Light]

not only that, but they fail MISERABLY at not even acknowledging that the 144 k are FIRSTFRUITS , Or a portion of a whole.
It is so silly because that AUTOMATICALLY points to 2 raptures, or two SEPARATE harvests.
IOW, the 144k can ONLY be Jews, because nothing else fits.
Kinda like it plainly says.

It's all so simple and yet is not seen by many. "The 144,000 is the Church". Baloney. "The 144,000 is all of Israel" Nonsense. The 144,000 is EXACTLY who God says they are. If people would just quit trying to solve imaginary problems when the answer is already given, they would gain understanding.

 

[Earburner]

You mean the RADICAL sons of Ishmael, the Arabs, that are jealous of God having blessed Israel? That's who the Palestinians are, the jealous, religious radical Arabs who have left the teachings of Moses. That is why those radical rebel Palestinians continually send ROCKETS over into the nation of Israel! And you claim ISRAEL is doing the persecuting?!?

What you are now showing us is that you SIDE WITH RADICAL ISLAM! and NOT Christianity.

CHRISTIANITY does not promote war and terrorism! It's the radical servants of the devil that do that. But those in Christ definitely ARE... ALLOWED to RETALIATE IN DEFENSE against such terrorist acts! And so are the orthodox Jews justified by God to defend theirselves too!

Whether you want to hear it or not, Christians are not allowed by God to retaliate against an attacking army, but the UNSAVED will.

Born again Christians are not of this world, and therefore are not obligated to be "patriotic" to the country they live in.
Israel, and their Godless belief system is of "that spirit of antichrist".
Again, another misunderstanding by church-ianity

 

[Earburner]

not only that, but they fail MISERABLY at not even acknowledging that the 144 k are FIRSTFRUITS , Or a portion of a whole.
It is so silly because that AUTOMATICALLY points to 2 raptures, or two SEPARATE harvests.
IOW, the 144k can ONLY be Jews, because nothing else fits.
Kinda like it plainly says.

Referencing post #102:
A kind of First fruits is correct, but they, the symbolic 144,000, were under the altar of Remembrance, being the OC.
Rev. 6:9-11 proves that God did not forget those who died in faith of "the Promise to come", he remembered them. Malachi 3:16.
Go see Simeon and Nathanael in the NT, and you will see their faith in action under the OC, just before Jesus' death and resurrection.

Are you saying that Jesus did not die for them also, who were of faith under the OC.??

 

[MatthewG]

Have you figured it out yet, @Davy?

 

[TribulationSigns]

"Inclusion Theology"? That's concerning. Sounds woke.

"Sounds woke?" This phrase sounds like someone who spends a lot of time watching too much American politics and not studying Scripture.

Romans 11

Can you share your interpretation of this? It's important to be able to back up any quotes from Scripture with a clear explanation.

You are one of the two witnesses. Moses, I suspect as the creek behind my house was red this morning and the koi pond was overrun with frogs and flies.


All kidding aside,

I am not amused, and it seems that God shares my sentiment.

I know you are not here by accident. When you were in seminary school I went to the real school. You were taught knowledge by men when I went where I was instructed and was watching the impossible over and over.

After reviewing your last 100 posts, it seems that you rarely share Bible verses and instead tend to make speculations, mockeries, and assumptions. This behavior does not appear to align with that of a dedicated Bible student.

The scripture itself has refuted your claims. You take a plainly worded scripture and claim it means something else. It means what it says.

Yet, you have not explained it yourself. Obviously, you lack spiritual discernment.

First fruits are first fruits of the harvest. EXACTLY what it says. We don't need to make anything up.

Sigh... You do not even know what the harvest represents. I can see that you lack spiritual discernment. Thats why the Lord said it seems foolish to a natural man like yourself.

No. God did not put two feasts together. You put two feasts together. They were told all men were to appear before God on these three feasts. They are all separate feasts that occur at separate times. It's simple enough. Why the need to make anything up?

You do not know what you are talking about.

The first fruits of the second harvest are EXACTLY who God said they are. They are 144,000 virgins from the twelve tribes. It's simple. Believe what is written and stay on the trail or start making things up and get off the trail.

You don't have any idea who the firstfruits are.

Let me give you an example of understanding:

For the same reason that we would believe that when the Jewish people were asking about a restoration of the physical Temple, Christ was speaking of the restoration of a spiritual Temple." In other words, He was spiritualizing while they were literalizing!

John 2:19-21

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But He spake of the temple of His body."

You see, it didn't matter what the Jewish people thought or what it "seemed" to them Jesus was talking about. What mattered was what He was really talking about. Even the Apostles didn't understand this until after Christ was risen. Only then did they really grasp that He spoke not of the physical Temple, but of the Temple of His body.

Likewise, when Christ talks about the restoring of Israel, He is not talking about the restoring of a physical nation, He is talking about the reconciliation, the restoration of the Children of Israel to God, through His Son Christ who actually is the true Israel of God. This is the Israel in whom they will be brought out of spiritual Egypt.

Exodus 4:22

• "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:"

Israel (Christ) is the firstborn Son brought out of Egypt, "spiritually," which the type in Moses day merely prefigured. And it is "in him" that we are brought out of Spiritual Egypt or bondage.

Matthew 2:15

• "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Clearly, Christ is the Firstborn Son, the fulfillment of Israel called out of Egypt. Just because these things are hard to understand, doesn't mean that they are not true. The restoration of Israel is a restoration of the Children of God in Christ, not of a physical land being restored or something to do with ethnic Jews only. The promised land is everlasting, it is a Spiritual inheritance rather than a physical one. It is the restoration/reconciling of a people to Israel that had been separated from their God by their sin. A "restoring" to the previous state of man when He was formed in the image and likeness of God, in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Because Christ is the firstborn called out of Egypt, we are spiritually firstborn called out of Egypt in Him. Because Christ is the first resurrected from the dead, we are the first resurrected from the dead, in Him. Because Christ was the firstfruit, we are the firstfruits unto God, in Him. He is the vine, we are branches in Him. Humility, or humbleness before God's word is the key to understanding scripture correctly. No one will understand if someone, like you, anyone take the attitude that they don't care what scripture says, or that it's just someone's opinion, or that it's just your own interpretation. Qrong. The interpretations belong to God. We must "surrender" to the "authority" of scripture, not world news, not Jerusalem Post, not Jospehus, etc. and then the Bible will open up for us. Then will we begin to understand that Israel is restored in God's children being healed by the gospel of salvation. Not national Israel. This is the truth illustrated in such passages as Matthew chapter 17.

Matthew 17:11-12

• "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
• But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

It's been fulfilled, and Elijah had already come with the message of restoration. The same Greek word restore (apokathistemi), and it is not speaking of the physical land of Israel, it is speaking to the spiritual Israel and how they would be reconciled or restored again to God. And "clearly" if we surrender to the authority of scripture, that restoration of all things was instituted in John's coming "FIRST" to fulfill the prophecy as the messenger announcing this Israel, Christ.

He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Malachi 4:5-6

• "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
• And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Turn the hearts of the fathers to the Children, and the children to the fathers is a synonym for restoration, or bringing things back to what they were before. It is saying this messenger John will precede Christ, coming to make things right again. That is how the children of Israel are restored, not as a physical nation, but as a Holy nation, which can only be a spiritual nation. As indeed God also prophesied it as "fulfilled," in Luke.

Luke 1:16-17

• "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
• And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

It is true that a lot of people fight against the truth of the scriptures, but that doesn't make them untrue. We see this adversity everyday. But humility before God's word, as a child is humble to his Father's, is the key to understanding God's word correctly. The scriptures are their own interpreter.

You are welcome. I look forward to the challenge as you have received much schooling. So have I.

I noticed that you made a comment about attending a "real school" while not knowing if I actually went to seminary. However, it seems like you weren't paying close attention to our conversation. In any case, I must point out that I haven't seen you quote Scripture often in your posts. Instead, your comments seem to be based on assumptions. In my opinion, this behavior does not align with that of a true Bible student but rather comes across as blind, prideful, and arrogant. I have decided to place you on the ignore list so I will not waste any more time reading your nonsense. As far as I am concerned, your arguments have been refuted. Sorry!

 

[The Light]

Can you share your interpretation of this? It's important to be able to back up any quotes from Scripture with a clear explanation.

You ought to be able figure out who the natural branches are etc. etc. The Word speaks for itself. This is no mystery. It does however refute your claim.

Here is the mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I am not amused, and it seems that God shares my sentiment.

Oh. Ok. Care to name your god?

When I see talk like this and see your level of scriptural understanding, it doesn't match up.

After reviewing your last 100 posts, it seems that you rarely share Bible verses and instead tend to make speculations, mockeries, and assumptions. This behavior does not appear to align with that of a dedicated Bible student.

Ummm. I'm reading your current post which no doubt is inspiring. All I've seen is barrage of out context scriptures that really proves nothing and of course the attacks.

Yet, you have not explained it yourself. Obviously, you lack spiritual discernment.

That's just it. Nothing needs to be discerned. The 144,000 are EXACTLY who God says they are which are firstfruits of a harvest. Why draw a false conclusion when there is nothing to solve.

Sigh... You do not even know what the harvest represents. I can see that you lack spiritual discernment. Thats why the Lord said it seems foolish to a natural man like yourself.

Personal attacks? I guess I hurt your feelings when you tried to roll those two feasts into one conclusion, and I merely posted the rest of the verses that disproved your nonsense.

You don't have any idea who the firstfruits are.

I guess this is where you want me to post some out of context scripture that proves nothing like you have been doing.

I noticed that you made a comment about attending a "real school" while not knowing if I actually went to seminary. However, it seems like you weren't paying close attention to our conversation.

Oh, I saw your claim of the teaching of the Holy Spirit, but I know the teaching of men when I see it.

In any case, I must point out that I haven't seen you quote Scripture often in your posts.

Actually I quote scripture quite often. I just don't post a bunch of out of context ramblings.

Instead, your comments seem to be based on assumptions.

Exactly. I assume that the Word of God means what it says, and we don't need any private interpretation, like the Church has replaced Israel. When God said that Israel would be regathered, that's what He meant. Oh, and He kept His Word despite the lack of faith of many.

In my opinion, this behavior does not align with that of a true Bible student but rather comes across as blind, prideful, and arrogant. I have decided to place you on the ignore list so I will not waste any more time reading your nonsense. As far as I am concerned, your arguments have been refuted. Sorry!

Or as you said you went through 100 of my posts and realize that you have no answers to the scriptures that I am going to post which completely dismantles your teachings. The Word is like that. Here's a bone for you......

Hebrews 412 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[quietthinker]

To all the deaf ears here and those who I guess deem themselves enlightened, I anticipate your fingers are well placed in those ears.

The various exchanges going on in this thread are pathetic, pathetic, pathetic. Ohhhh, you have your scripture references, sure, so did those who crucified Jesus.......and will you die for your scripture references while crucifying the one claimed as Lord? hmmmmm :)

Will you say to me, 'we have Abraham as our father' (our holy text) I tell you, God is able to raise children to Abraham of these stones.

 

[Keraz]

IOW, the 144k can ONLY be Jews, because nothing else fits.

Statements like this, put all of your interpretations into question.
The Jews; the House of Judah, consists of just the two tribes; Judah and Benjamin. Some of the other ten tribes have joined them and some; plus gentiles too, still do so today. They practise Judaism and become Jews.

The 144.000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. We have lost the identity of the House of Israel and only God really knows who and where they all are. Amos 9:9
But because Jesus was sent to save that House of Israel, Matthew 15:25, we can be sure that the majority of the Christian peoples must be descended from ancient Israel. Proved by how they were exiled to the Caucasus region of Assyria and we of the Caucasian Western, nations were the people who accepted the Christian Gospel.
If, as some like to think; that Israel is only those who claim to be Jews, then Jesus' mission failed.

 

[Keraz]

God is able to raise children to Abraham of these stones.

God did not need to do that.
He sent Jesus to save us, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, but mainly people whose ancestry is lost and kept hidden from us. However; there is historical, archaeological, heraldic AND Biblical evidence of the fact that we of the Western, Caucasian peoples ARE the descendants of Jacob. We are the uncountable multitude, as many as the sand of the sea, who have received the Blessings given by Moses and by Jacob to his sons.

We must not conflate the Jews, who have wrongly usurped the name of Israel, with the true Israelites of God.

 

[Davy]

Whether you want to hear it or not, Christians are not allowed by God to retaliate against an attacking army, but the UNSAVED will.

Born again Christians are not of this world, and therefore are not obligated to be "patriotic" to the country they live in.
Israel, and their Godless belief system is of "that spirit of antichrist".
Again, another misunderstanding by church-ianity

You don't know what you're talking about, and it's becoming evident that you side more with the enemies of Christ.

So welcome to my IGNORE LIST YOU DECEIVER.

 

[Davy]

For Brethren in Christ that are not... deceived:

Jesus Christ gave His servants the God-given right to self-defense.

It is written in Luke 22 where He commanded His disciples, those who had an extra coat, or money, etc., to go BUY A SWORD.

Two of the disciples held up 2 swords, and He said that was enough.


Jesus speaking:

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."

36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
KJV


So don't allow anyone, brethren in Christ, to tell you that you haven't the God-given right to own a weapon and use it in self-defense of your person, or your family, or you home, or even your country!

If you fear having a weapon to protect yourself, then don't expect God to miraculously show up to protect against thugs coming at you. He gave you the RIGHT to ARM yourself, so why not listen to Him?

 

[Davy]

"Sounds woke?" This phrase sounds like someone who spends a lot of time watching too much American politics and not studying Scripture.



Can you share your interpretation of this? It's important to be able to back up any quotes from Scripture with a clear explanation.



I am not amused, and it seems that God shares my sentiment.



After reviewing your last 100 posts, it seems that you rarely share Bible verses and instead tend to make speculations, mockeries, and assumptions. This behavior does not appear to align with that of a dedicated Bible student.



Yet, you have not explained it yourself. Obviously, you lack spiritual discernment.



Sigh... You do not even know what the harvest represents. I can see that you lack spiritual discernment. Thats why the Lord said it seems foolish to a natural man like yourself.



You do not know what you are talking about.



You don't have any idea who the firstfruits are.

Let me give you an example of understanding:

For the same reason that we would believe that when the Jewish people were asking about a restoration of the physical Temple, Christ was speaking of the restoration of a spiritual Temple." In other words, He was spiritualizing while they were literalizing!

John 2:19-21

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But He spake of the temple of His body."

You see, it didn't matter what the Jewish people thought or what it "seemed" to them Jesus was talking about. What mattered was what He was really talking about. Even the Apostles didn't understand this until after Christ was risen. Only then did they really grasp that He spoke not of the physical Temple, but of the Temple of His body.

Likewise, when Christ talks about the restoring of Israel, He is not talking about the restoring of a physical nation, He is talking about the reconciliation, the restoration of the Children of Israel to God, through His Son Christ who actually is the true Israel of God. This is the Israel in whom they will be brought out of spiritual Egypt.

Exodus 4:22

• "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:"

Israel (Christ) is the firstborn Son brought out of Egypt, "spiritually," which the type in Moses day merely prefigured. And it is "in him" that we are brought out of Spiritual Egypt or bondage.

Matthew 2:15

• "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Clearly, Christ is the Firstborn Son, the fulfillment of Israel called out of Egypt. Just because these things are hard to understand, doesn't mean that they are not true. The restoration of Israel is a restoration of the Children of God in Christ, not of a physical land being restored or something to do with ethnic Jews only. The promised land is everlasting, it is a Spiritual inheritance rather than a physical one. It is the restoration/reconciling of a people to Israel that had been separated from their God by their sin. A "restoring" to the previous state of man when He was formed in the image and likeness of God, in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Because Christ is the firstborn called out of Egypt, we are spiritually firstborn called out of Egypt in Him. Because Christ is the first resurrected from the dead, we are the first resurrected from the dead, in Him. Because Christ was the firstfruit, we are the firstfruits unto God, in Him. He is the vine, we are branches in Him. Humility, or humbleness before God's word is the key to understanding scripture correctly. No one will understand if someone, like you, anyone take the attitude that they don't care what scripture says, or that it's just someone's opinion, or that it's just your own interpretation. Qrong. The interpretations belong to God. We must "surrender" to the "authority" of scripture, not world news, not Jerusalem Post, not Jospehus, etc. and then the Bible will open up for us. Then will we begin to understand that Israel is restored in God's children being healed by the gospel of salvation. Not national Israel. This is the truth illustrated in such passages as Matthew chapter 17.

Matthew 17:11-12

• "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
• But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

It's been fulfilled, and Elijah had already come with the message of restoration. The same Greek word restore (apokathistemi), and it is not speaking of the physical land of Israel, it is speaking to the spiritual Israel and how they would be reconciled or restored again to God. And "clearly" if we surrender to the authority of scripture, that restoration of all things was instituted in John's coming "FIRST" to fulfill the prophecy as the messenger announcing this Israel, Christ.

He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Malachi 4:5-6

• "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
• And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Turn the hearts of the fathers to the Children, and the children to the fathers is a synonym for restoration, or bringing things back to what they were before. It is saying this messenger John will precede Christ, coming to make things right again. That is how the children of Israel are restored, not as a physical nation, but as a Holy nation, which can only be a spiritual nation. As indeed God also prophesied it as "fulfilled," in Luke.

Luke 1:16-17

• "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
• And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

It is true that a lot of people fight against the truth of the scriptures, but that doesn't make them untrue. We see this adversity everyday. But humility before God's word, as a child is humble to his Father's, is the key to understanding God's word correctly. The scriptures are their own interpreter.



I noticed that you made a comment about attending a "real school" while not knowing if I actually went to seminary. However, it seems like you weren't paying close attention to our conversation. In any case, I must point out that I haven't seen you quote Scripture often in your posts. Instead, your comments seem to be based on assumptions. In my opinion, this behavior does not align with that of a true Bible student but rather comes across as blind, prideful, and arrogant. I have decided to place you on the ignore list so I will not waste any more time reading your nonsense. As far as I am concerned, your arguments have been refuted. Sorry!

You've gone too far. You are wrongly spiritualizing just about every one of God's Promises specifically to the seed of Israel at the coming of His future Kingdom under Jesus Christ.

Haven't you ever read Jeremiah 31 where God promised that Israel involving the seed would never cease being a nation forever? Even Apostle Paul in Romans 10 told you that all Israel will be saved; that the majority of Jews have been spiritually blinded by God's Own Hand, not their's. Did you forget to read that while you quoted Paul?

Here's a Truth in God's Word that you need to realize, instead playing doctrines of men...

If there is no LITERAL inheritance of a future LITERAL KINGDOM ON EARTH involving the believing 'seed' of Israel, then there could not be a spiritual inheritance for anyone.

It is terrible, even horrible, that you fail to understand that just as Christ's Church is made up of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, they BOTH INHERIT THE PROMISES TO ISRAEL together. This is even what Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 about our INHERITING WITH FAITHFUL ABRAHAM!

So there's @Keraz with his mostly Israel seed inheritance ideas, and then you on the other extreme with a 'spiritual' inheritance only up in the clouds somewhere! Neither idea follows God's Word, as the meek shall inherit the earth!

 

[TribulationSigns]

You've gone too far. You are wrongly spiritualizing just about every one of God's Promises specifically to the seed of Israel at the coming of His future Kingdom under Jesus Christ.

No, it is YOU who does not understand who the seed of Israel really is.

Haven't you ever read Jeremiah 31 where God promised that Israel involving the seed would never cease being a nation forever?

Jer 31:31-36
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Learn to quote Scripture and explain it yourself to see if you know what you are blabbing about because your teachings are found unbiblical and wanting because in Hebrews chapter 8 and 9, God HIMSELF references this New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 and declares it fulfilled IN CHRIST. You need to study Jeremiah chapter 31 in "THE LIGHT" of Hebrews chapter 8 and 9. For example:

Heb 8:6-11
(6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We all know Christ without a teacher (1st John 2:27) because of the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost instituting the New Covenant with Israel. The Old being passed away.

What "First Covenant?" What "Better Covenant." The New Covenant or Testament of course!. The New Covenant with the Congregation Israel verses the Old Covenant with the Congregation Israel. You got the wrong Israel to begin with. God was not talking about national Israel here but holy nation, Israel, IN CHRIST. That is the seed God talked about. Selah!

"He who hath an ear, let him hear."

Even Apostle Paul in Romans 10 told you that all Israel will be saved; that the majority of Jews have been spiritually blinded by God's Own Hand, not their's. Did you forget to read that while you quoted Paul?

Please read carefully:

Rom 10:11-13
(11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God did not talk about "All the nation of Israel be saved." here. Again, you misunderstood who Israel is.

Here's a Truth in God's Word that you need to realize, instead playing doctrines of men...

Actually, it's you who are playing carnal doctrines of men thinking God is talking about Jews and national Israel. You got wrong Israel which is CHRIST - all of them in Him! Sad.

If there is no LITERAL inheritance of a future LITERAL KINGDOM ON EARTH involving the believing 'seed' of Israel, then there could not be a spiritual inheritance for anyone.

You don't interpret prophecy by following and literally transposing history's physical people, places and things into it, rather you interpret prophecy by following and Spiritually transposing history's people, places, and things into it--according to God's defining it. For example, the Prophesy was that Elijah would come before the Messiah. It wasn't of Elijah the prophet himself who had gone before would literally be reincarnated, but of another who would come in the Spirit and power of Elijah. And that prophecy was Spiritually fulfilled in John the Baptist just as it was meant to be! Likewise, when God prophesied that in the future a place called Babylon would fall, it is not of the literal physical place located in Iraq or even Rome, it was of a place that would Spiritually become as Babylon was defined in Scripture. Or again, when God prophesied of the raising up of the tabernacle of David that had fallen, the thing He prophesied of was not a physical structure that collapsed on Mount Moriah, rather it was the Spiritual house that would be built again of all nations (people). These people, places and things were not to be understood as a prophecy of very literal people, places and things, but to be understood in spirit and truth. The prophecies were meant to be understood "exactly" as God had always meant for them to be understood. Not as a man might surmise they should be understood like you do. Becaucse you are making the SAME ERROR made by the Jewish leaders at Christ's first advent. They were literally looking for Christ to establish a literal Kingdom in physical Israel, and for Him to literally free the Jewish people from captivity under Roman rule, and for Elijah the prophet to literally come back before the Messiah. Like many today, especially the Premillennialists and pre-tribs, couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Matthew 17:10-13

• "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
• And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
• But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
• Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Like you, the Jews were looked for a literal Elijah coming and failed to understand John the Baptist came in the "Spirit and Power" of Elijah. They looked for an earthly Kingdom, and yet the prophecy of the Kingdom being restored was not of earthly Israel, but Spiritual Israel. They looked for an earthly literal Temple being rebuilt and understood not that the Temple being rebuilt was Spiritual, with Christ being the chief cornerstone of that building, and we all being living stones of Him. Christ being the SEED! All these things are clearly laid out in God's Word. I didn't make this up, it is written. You see the problem is always the same. Do we interpret Scripture by Scripture (God's word), or do we privately/personally interpret it according to church leaders, favorite authors, youtube influencers, or our own will? We shouldn't be surprised that history repeats itself. ...literally!

Ecclesiastes 1:9

• "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Or in today's vernacular, what goes around comes around. There is nothing new under the sun. Therefore, your doctrine is as wrong as the apostate Jewish leaders of Old.

It is terrible, even horrible, that you fail to understand that just as Christ's Church is made up of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, they BOTH INHERIT THE PROMISES TO ISRAEL together.

Duh. That is what I am teaching all along.

This is even what Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 about our INHERITING WITH FAITHFUL ABRAHAM!

Duh, again. Obviously, you did not really read my posts very well.

So there's @Keraz with his mostly Israel seed inheritance ideas, and then you on the other extreme with a 'spiritual' inheritance only up in the clouds somewhere! Neither idea follows God's Word, as the meek shall inherit the earth!

The seed is Christ for He "IS" Israel. Selah.

 

[quietthinker]

You don't know what you're talking about, and it's becoming evident that you side more with the enemies of Christ.

So welcome to my IGNORE LIST YOU DECEIVER.

ahhhhhhh, such generosity!

 

[Davy]

No, it is YOU who does not understand who the seed of Israel really is.


Jer 31:31-36
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Learn to quote Scripture and explain it yourself to see if you know what you are blabbing about because your teachings are found unbiblical and wanting because in Hebrews chapter 8 and 9, God HIMSELF references this New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 and declares it fulfilled IN CHRIST. You need to study Jeremiah chapter 31 in "THE LIGHT" of Hebrews chapter 8 and 9. For example:

You've just shown you anti-Semitism hatred against Jews. No need for any further remarks from someone like you.

 

[jeffweeder]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.