Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Earburner]

Rev.7 is a Salvation chapter about BOTH 'sealed' Israelites and 'sealed' Gentiles.

Yes, salvation was to Israel of faith, in their belief of the "Promise to come" (Jesus), for those who lived under the OC, WHEN it was in force and operative.
They are now shown as permanently saved by the Gift of God's Holy Spirit given to each one, who were under the altar (of remembrance).
Malachi 3:16 was fulfilled in Rev. 6:9-11.
Jesus CAME to that Israel of faith, who had been waiting thousands of years, but had died in faith, waiting for that Promise.

Are you saying that God didn't "remember" them, and therefore excluded them from the kingdom of Christ??
I surely hope that you do not, because Christ died for Abraham, Moses and all who were of such faith, but for most others, their names were never mentioned.

Without the shedding of Christ's blood, Sin could NEVER be REMOVED from any person, and therefore they would NEVER be allowed to permanently receive the gift of God's HOLY Spirit, the very vehicle of the Gift of Eternal Life.

However, Today since Pentecost, all of Israel must come to God the Father, by having faith in Jesus, just as any dirty, rotten, wicked "dog" of a Gentile. Do you understand?? If you do, then you will know that no Jew sees themselves to be equal to a Gentile DOG!!
Hence the reason why....the large majority of Jews do not come to Christ, to be converted, born again of God's Holy Spirit. They still think that they are special in God's eyes, and unfortunately, so does MOST of "church-ianity".

BTW, you are not aware of how and who it was that provided the way for Israel to have their nation back to them. It wasn't God, but rather England, and the Banking Elite, who literally do worship Lucifer, thus holding to the "Luciferian Doctrine" of his twisted benevolence.

And so, now that they are back in their land, they are more antisemitic than any Gentile.
Why?
All of the Palestinians, and any other Islamic people, are also of the physical heritage of Abraham. That makes them all to be a semitic people, and yet Israel openly persecutes them, and is barely able to allow them to be there.

 

[No Pre-TB]

When Revelation 6 is read, we can see that the six seal is opened and there are signs of the sun, moon and stars. When Matthew 24 is read, we can see that Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. It is also marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Revelation 6 we can see that the wrath of God is about to begin. In Matthew 24 we can tell that the tribulation is over. Can you not see this?. The 7th seal containing the trumpets are the wrath of God.
Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 6, Matthew 24 and Revelation 14 shows the second coming when the Lord comes for the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE WRATH. It is a HARVEST. The Lord remains in the clouds and sends His angels

Revelation 11, Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 show when Jesus returns toward the end of wrath for Armageddon and then to set up His kingdom. This is the second advent when Jesus returns to the earth.



All these years and you still haven't figured out that Jesus comes for a harvest before wrath at the 6th seal and then returns at the end of wrath and sets up His kingdom. And that doesn't even count not understanding when He comes for the Church before the seals are opened. The Lord is at the door. WATC

It seems to me you’re not thinking about the words. You’re assuming when it says immediately after the tribulation of those days, that the son of man comes immediately after the signs. It doesn’t say that. The only thing immediate after tribulation of those days is the signs in the sun, moon etc. and sometime after that the son of man comes. All it shows is his coming does not precede the 6th seal. It doesn’t tell us from Matthew 24, after the 6th seal is opened, the answer to when exactly.

 

[The Light]

It seems to me you’re not thinking about the words. You’re assuming when it says immediately after the tribulation of those days, that the son of man comes immediately after the signs. It doesn’t say that. The only thing immediate after tribulation of those days is the signs in the sun, moon etc. and sometime after that the son of man comes. All it shows is his coming does not precede the 6th seal. It doesn’t tell us from Matthew 24, after the 6th seal is opened, the answer to when exactly.

What it says is that Jesus returns before wrath, which is before the 7th seal is opened. We have further proof that Jesus returns for a harvest, before wrath in Revelation 14. Here is the great tribulation.........

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus after the tribulation.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is that coming before the wrath of God

Revelation 14

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I believe the Word speaks for itself. We see Jesus comes at the 6th seal before wrath and we know Jesus comes at the end of wrath to set up His kingdom. That's two comings. All you have to do is decide whether what you have been taught lines up with the Word of God. I'll give you a clue. It doesn't.

 

[The Light]

The nonsense is what the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors wrongly teach that all the Seals happen first, and then all the Trumpets happen next, and then all the Vials happen last.

Just as you do, they REJECT the Scripture evidence that shows the EVENTS of Christ's coming in the SEALS, and in the TRUMPETS, and in the VIALS.

Thusly, they are NOT following God's Word as written, they are following what some pre-trib rapture leader in some far away city tells them to think.

The first six seals happen and Jesus returns for a harvest. Then the wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened. Jesus returns at the end of the trumpets of wrath to set up His kingdom.

Thats 2 comings when you only account for one.

Not including the rapture of the Church before the seals are opened.

You don't need answer as we both know you have no answers as you usually duck out when the facts come out.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I believe the Word speaks for itself. We see Jesus comes at the 6th seal before wrath and we know Jesus comes at the end of wrath to set up His kingdom. That's two comings.

There is only 1 more coming. As soon as you introduce 2 more comings, you strayed from hermeneutical texts.

 

[The Light]

There is only 1 more coming. As soon as you introduce 2 more comings, you strayed from hermeneutical texts.

I just showed you He comes before wrath and I think you know He comes at the end of wrath. If I need to show you that I can.

The real issue is what you have been taught can be proven as incorrect. Instead of recognizing that you stick your head in the sand as all Post triibbers that are really post wrathers.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I just showed you He comes before wrath and I think you know He comes at the end of wrath. If I need to show you that I can.

The real issue is what you have been taught can be proven as incorrect. Instead of recognizing that you stick your head in the sand as all Post triibbers that are really post wrathers.

You didn’t show me anything. What you did was tell me what you thought. Christ is not shown to return at or directly after the 6th seal. What OT scripture does say is that he declares his majesty and rises up in order to perform his judgment after that event. He doesn’t leave heaven till the time to restore all things per Acts. You’re making him leave heaven when he’s about to commit judgment and nothing has yet been removed. That disagrees with Pauline writings. It’s not a matter of someone not seeing it. It’s a matter of scripture saying otherwise.

 

[Davy]

You don't get it. There are no more promises for or to Israel, except that they come to "the judgment seat of Christ" NOW, UNDER the Grace of God for ALL people. John 3:18.

You are the one that just don't get it. You're listening to doctrines of men instead of God's Word. It even sounds like you have thrown away your Old Testament part of your Bible which still has MANY PROPHESIES from God that are yet to happen.

I'm a Gentile believer and yet I am well familiar with the Old Testament prophets where God has PROMISED to establish Israel as a nation FOREVER in the holy lands...

Jer 31:31-37
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV


What I recommend for you, is to LEAVE that beth-aven (house of vanity) type church you are going to that tries to create their own private Salvation Plan while claiming God is done with the seed of Israel and His Promises to them. And if you didn't get that 'Israel no more' idea from them, then I suggest you get your Bible out and start studying from Genesis 1 and all the way through to the end of Revelation, and don't just bypass the Old Testament prophets.

 

[Davy]

And here is THAT judgment, which is still going on, as long as God's Grace IS ACTIVE THROUGH HAVING FAITH IN JESUS.
Matt.23
[39] For I say unto you [Jews/Israel], Ye shall not see/perceive me henceforth,
till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why should the Jews call "born again Christians" "blessed"?
Only they have the authority of the Holy Spirit, to lead one to Christ. Which is directly connected to the two judgments of John 3:18.

Don't you know that Jews coming to the Lord, has been going on in every generation of Israel, ever since Pentecost, and that it is ONLY going to be by THAT WAY??

You definitely have a problem with your anti-Semitism.

There are MANY Jews that have converted to Christ Jesus. So how can you just talk about Jews in your manner, as if God has disposed of them all?

God chose the seed of Israel for HIS PURPOSE, not theirs, and not ours. And He will NEVER go back on His PROMISES to them. We as Gentiles have only come into those SAME PROMISES God originally gave to Israel, for that is exactly what Lord Jesus Christ came to offer with The New Covenant.

Didn't you read that Jeremiah 31 prophecy God gave to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel) and to the "house of Judah" (Jews) which is also mentioned in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10?

Didn't you read what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9 to believing Roman Gentiles when quoting from the Book of Hosea about a people there lo-ami, not My people, becoming the children of God, with that applying to both the seed of Israel and to Gentiles? God originally gave those Hosea prophecies ONLY to the northern ten tribe "house of Israel" kingdom He was then getting ready to end, and scatter the ten tribes among the Gentiles.

Haven't you figured out what... God's scattering of the ten tribed "house of Israel" among the Gentiles accomplished? It was because that is where The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be sent after Christ was crucifed, and the ten scattered tribes of Israel ALONG with Gentiles would believe, and become the early historical Christian nations!

Those ten scattered tribes of Israel lost 'knowledge' of their bloodline heritage from Israel, but they did not loose their actual bloodline as the seed of Israel. This is why God promised the following in final for them...

Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV

 

[Earburner]

You definitely have a problem with your anti-Semitism.

There are MANY Jews that have converted to Christ Jesus. So how can you just talk about Jews in your manner, as if God has disposed of them all?

God chose the seed of Israel for HIS PURPOSE, not theirs, and not ours. And He will NEVER go back on His PROMISES to them. We as Gentiles have only come into those SAME PROMISES God originally gave to Israel, for that is exactly what Lord Jesus Christ came to offer with The New Covenant.

Didn't you read that Jeremiah 31 prophecy God gave to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel) and to the "house of Judah" (Jews) which is also mentioned in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10?

Didn't you read what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9 to believing Roman Gentiles when quoting from the Book of Hosea about a people there lo-ami, not My people, becoming the children of God, with that applying to both the seed of Israel and to Gentiles? God originally gave those Hosea prophecies ONLY to the northern ten tribe "house of Israel" kingdom He was then getting ready to end, and scatter the ten tribes among the Gentiles.

Haven't you figured out what... God's scattering of the ten tribed "house of Israel" among the Gentiles accomplished? It was because that is where The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be sent after Christ was crucifed, and the ten scattered tribes of Israel ALONG with Gentiles would believe, and become the early historical Christian nations!

Those ten scattered tribes of Israel lost 'knowledge' of there bloodline heritage from Israel, but they did not loose their actual bloodline as the seed of Israel. This is why God promised the following in final for them...

Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV

Evidently you don't understand what Jesus was saying to the Jews.
[39] For I say unto you [Jews/Israel], Ye shall not see/perceive me henceforth,
till ye [Jews] shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why should the Jews call "born again Christians" "blessed"?
Only born again Christians have the authority of the Holy Spirit, to lead one to Christ. Which is directly connected to the two judgments of John 3:18.

Don't you know that a remnant of Jews have been coming to the Lord, through born again Christians?
It has been going on in every generation of Israel, ever since Pentecost, and that is the ONLY WAY it's going happen for them. By THAT WAY.

Lest you forget what Jesus said to the Jews:
Luke 19
[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it [not the temple and other buildings, but rather people],
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Lol, semitic Israel, persecuting semetic Palestine,...and you think I'm the one having a problem??
You are being deceived by the twisted narrative, that is built on the word "antisemitic" itself, by the ultimate persecutors themselves, who do persecute other semitic people.

"Not all of Israel is Israel", especially now, since the Jews are there as squatters in "Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with [all] HER [semitic] children".

But Jerusalem which is ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all [who are of faith in Christ].
Do study all of KJV Gal. 4

 

[The Light]

You didn’t show me anything. What you did was tell me what you thought.

I absolutely produced the scriptures that prove that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before wrath for a harvest. It's like me producing a scripture that shows Jesus is the only way to heaven and you telling me that's what I thought. You see what you want to see.

Christ is not shown to return at or directly after the 6th seal.

You can dance around the truth all you want. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. So the choice is what you have been taught or the truth.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What OT scripture does say is that he declares his majesty and rises up in order to perform his judgment after that event.

Yeah. We see that here.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So how does this change the FACT that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest?
IT DOESN'T.

He doesn’t leave heaven till the time to restore all things per Acts. You’re making him leave heaven when he’s about to commit judgment and nothing has yet been removed. That disagrees with Pauline writings. It’s not a matter of someone not seeing it. It’s a matter of scripture saying otherwise.

He is leaving heaven when it is the time to restore all things. It starts with the harvest to remove His bride BEFORE wrath as we are not appointed to wrath.

Acts 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Always out of context answers to deny what is written. Don't you ever question your teachers. The doctrine you follow is the doctrine of men that didn't believe that God would keep His word and restore Israel as a nation. These are weak unbelieving men that denied the power of God passing on a doctrine of unbelief to others.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Who are the 144,000 really?

Basically they are the whole body of God's chosen people. Israel "represents" the children of God. But the name itself is actually a synonym for Christ, in that He is the "power of God" in man that man might prevail. If you remember when God signifying this, changed Jacob's name to Israel, [yisrael], literally meaning "power of God." This title of Christ is from the Hebrew root words [sarah], meaning power (Genesis 32:28, Hosea 12:3), and {'el}, meaning God (Genesis 49:25; Hosea 11:9). This title bestowed upon Jacob because He represents Christ, and his posterity the children of God who would prevail through the power of Christ.

Genesis 32:28

• "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

God wrestled with man, and man prevailed. The nation Israel was a representation of the Christ, the power of God in man, that He prevails. We are Israel, a bodily representation of Christ, the true Israel of God. Christ is the Prince that has power of God with man, that he prevails. He is the true Israel that was brought out of Egypt.

Hosea 11:1-3

• "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

Matthew 2:14-15

• "When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
• And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Isaiah 49:2-3

• "And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
• And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Revelation 1:16-18

• "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
• And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
• I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

This Israel "IS" Christ, the true Israel of God, the true Chosen of God (1st Peter 2:4), and the true Son of the Father (2nd John 1:3). Though the nation Israel was called all these things, it was only because it represented Christ.

Now as we can begin to get a little better understanding of how the promises to Israel of Peace and Safety are really fulfilled. It is by the tribes or families of Israel being sealed by the Holy Spirit (2nd Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30). Through this sealing they are provided with peace, and with safety. Peace with God, and safety from is wrath. This is how and why all the tribes (families) of "this" true Israel of God must be sealed or secured. ..through Christ. He is the families of God's only Peace and safety.

In order to understand what the number 144,000 signifies. The number 12 is the spiritual number of the Church. For example, the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles. And 1,000 is the spiritual number for the fullness (1000 years, 1000 cattle, 1000 hills, etc.). So the 12,000 from each family signify the fullness (1000) of each family or tribe of God's children (12). Or 12x1000. 12,000 from each tribe. Thus the number, a hundred and forty and four thousand "signify" the completeness or whole body of the children of God throughout time. 12,000 X the 12 tribes or families. It's God's way of illustrating through numbers His whole household, which is the entire body of Christ. Or as it says, "all the tribes of the children of Israel." Not only the Jews of the Old Testament but also the Gentiles of the New Testament "IN" Christ. Meaning all the Children of God through Christ. That means everyone who was ever saved.

They are who God has identified spiritually as 144,000 which John heard and then saw the same great multitudes as a result! One big spiritual family of God.

 

[Davy]

Evidently you don't understand what Jesus was saying to the Jews.
[39] For I say unto you [Jews/Israel], Ye shall not see/perceive me henceforth,
till ye [Jews] shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why should the Jews call "born again Christians" "blessed"?
Only born again Christians have the authority of the Holy Spirit, to lead one to Christ. Which is directly connected to the two judgments of John 3:18.

Jesus was quoting that from Psalms 118. Of course that was about His 1st coming, which the majority of Jews rejected in Jerusalem. But not all did. All of Christ's Apostles and disciples were Israelites. Furthermore, Christ's Kingdom is still not established here on earth yet today. Only in Spirit through His Church on earth is His Kingdom manifested so far. God's Word, both in the Old Testament and New Testament Books testify of Christ's future LITERAL Kingdom to come here on earth in the physical, not just in the Spirit. So if you refuse to believe that as written, then it means you have left... The Word of God, for that is well testified of in His Word.

 

[Davy]

Don't you know that a remnant of Jews have been coming to the Lord, through born again Christians?
It has been going on in every generation of Israel, ever since Pentecost, and that is the ONLY WAY it's going happen for them. By THAT WAY.

Your actually kind of funny. So Christ's Apostles, which were Jews, didn't preach to Gentiles? Sounds like you missed the Acts 9 and 10 and 11 chapters completely! To whom did Lord Jesus specifically 'choose' and send to preach The Gospel to Gentiles? (see Acts 9).

You like to omit Jews from their chosen work for Christ in preaching The Gospel, but that won't work. That kind of thinking is a lie from men's doctrines.

 

[Davy]

Lest you forget what Jesus said to the Jews:
Luke 19
[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it [not the temple and other buildings, but rather people],
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Lord Jesus said that regarding the majority of the "house of Judah" (Jews) that rejected Him, and had Him crucified. That was ordained... to happen, did you not know? Would there have been forgiveness of sins for those who believe if Jesus had NOT been rejected by those Jews and crucified? Even king David, who also was a prophet, prophesied of Jesus' crucifixion in Psalms 22. And Genesis 3:15 is when God first hinted at Jesus' heel being bruised upon the cross.

There is evidently much that you do not understand within The Word of God. If you quit listening to men's doctrines, and stay in God's Word asking His help, you might learn some of this.

 

[Davy]

Lol, semitic Israel, persecuting semetic Palestine,...and you think I'm the one having a problem??
You are being deceived by the twisted narrative, that is built on the word "antisemitic" itself, by the ultimate persecutors themselves, who do persecute other semitic people.

You mean the RADICAL sons of Ishmael, the Arabs, that are jealous of God having blessed Israel? That's who the Palestinians are, the jealous, religious radical Arabs who have left the teachings of Moses. That is why those radical rebel Palestinians continually send ROCKETS over into the nation of Israel! And you claim ISRAEL is doing the persecuting?!?

What you are now showing us is that you SIDE WITH RADICAL ISLAM! and NOT Christianity.

CHRISTIANITY does not promote war and terrorism! It's the radical servants of the devil that do that. But those in Christ definitely ARE... ALLOWED to RETALIATE IN DEFENSE against such terrorist acts! And so are the orthodox Jews justified by God to defend theirselves too!

 

[The Light]

Who are the 144,000 really?

Basically they are the whole body of God's chosen people. Israel "represents" the children of God. But the name itself is actually a synonym for Christ, in that He is the "power of God" in man that man might prevail. If you remember when God signifying this, changed Jacob's name to Israel, [yisrael], literally meaning "power of God." This title of Christ is from the Hebrew root words [sarah], meaning power (Genesis 32:28, Hosea 12:3), and {'el}, meaning God (Genesis 49:25; Hosea 11:9). This title bestowed upon Jacob because He represents Christ, and his posterity the children of God who would prevail through the power of Christ.

Yeah. Sounds like your imagination has run away. Don't be disheartened, it's a common theme around here.

Wouldn't it be easier, wiser and truthful to just accept what is written.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yeah. Sounds like your imagination has run away.

Hardly

Don't be disheartened

No, I am full of Joy.

, it's a common theme around here.

I can see that too, including yours.

Wouldn't it be easier, wiser and truthful to just accept what is written.

Do you? Really?

Surely you are not suggesting that the book of Revelation is as seen through a "Perfectly Clear" glass? On the contrary, it takes the Holy Spirit of God within man that "search out" the proverbs to understand the dark sayings of God. "Dark sayings" is a phrase that speaks of the unclear nature of the parabolic or symbolic meanings in God's word. We see through this glass darkly, things are not all perfectly clear. Thus stars symbolize believers, Babylon symbolizes the fallen Church, scorpion stings are from men, and a thousand years is the fullness of time. The 144,000 is whole House of Israel in Christ? Clear? No! ...True? Yes!

Psalms 78:1

• "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
• I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:"

Proverbs 25:1-2

• "These are also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out.
• It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

Proverbs 1:5-7

• "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
• To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
• The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

The fact is, if the Bible was all plain and clear, God wouldn't have appointed some teachers, some evangelists, and some preachers. No one would have to teach the gospel, they would just go around passing out Bibles and walk away. God appointed teachers for a reason.

1st Timothy 3:2

• "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1st Peter 3:15-16

• "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
• Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ."

The truth is, simplified answers to complicated questions always genders confusion and more questions. While answers grounded solidly upon the Rock of the word of God, exegeted and "taught" honestly and consistently by the Spirit, genders faith, assurance and understanding.

One man's mystery is another man's plainness of speech, and one man's open apocalypse is another man's cryptic revelation of the Spirit.

 

[The Light]

Surely you are not suggesting that the book of Revelation is as seen through a "Perfectly Clear" glass? On the contrary, it takes the Holy Spirit of God within man that "search out" the proverbs to understand the dark sayings of God. "Dark sayings" is a phrase that speaks of the unclear nature of the parabolic or symbolic meanings in God's word. We see through this glass darkly, things are not all perfectly clear.

Where are these great men of God that are able to see? I have yet to see one that understands the order of Revelation. Most spend their time letting their imagination run instead simply believing what is written. Many follow those that taught the Church had replaced Israel and had not the faith to believe that God would raise Israel as a nation, just as the Word clearly says.

Thus stars symbolize believers, Babylon symbolizes the fallen Church, scorpion stings are from men, and a thousand years is the fullness of time. The 144,000 is whole House of Israel in Christ? Clear? No! ...True? Yes!

It's clear you know much and understand very little. Not one thing you said agrees with the Word of God. All made up instead of just believing the written Word. Oh, and welcome to the board brother.

The fact is, if the Bible was all plain and clear, God wouldn't have appointed some teachers, some evangelists, and some preachers. No one would have to teach the gospel, they would just go around passing out Bibles and walk away. God appointed teachers for a reason.

When God says there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel, that's what He means. He does not need us to make up things that are plainly written. When symbolism is used it's pretty easy to tell. This does not give us a license to reject what is written.

The truth is, simplified answers to complicated questions always genders confusion and more questions. While answers grounded solidly upon the Rock of the word of God, exegeted and "taught" honestly and consistently by the Spirit, genders faith, assurance and understanding.

One man's mystery is another man's plainness of speech, and one man's open apocalypse is another man's cryptic revelation of the Spirit.

Oh I detect the spirit of Churchology. Who do you strudy under?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Many follow those that taught the Church had replaced Israel and had not the faith to believe that God would raise Israel as a nation, just as the Word clearly says.

I do not teach the so-called replacement theology. Actually, it is "Election Theology" or "Inclusion Theology" But I will let Christ answer your charges against His Word:
Matthew 21:42-45

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them."

Is that God's infallible, undeniable truth, or God's amillennial antisemitism and replacement theology? Every man and woman has to decide for themselves based on their hermeneutic. God's word of truth or man's word of deception. Let God be true and every man a liar is my God-breathed system of interpretation. The only hermeneutic that will prevail.

It's clear you know much and understand very little.

You clearly do not know who I am and where I come from. Be careful. Hebrews 13:2.

Not one thing you said agrees with the Word of God. All made up instead of just believing the written Word.

Yet you have not refuted my position with Scripture yet. I am waiting.

When God says there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel, that's what He means.

Really, do you ever compare Scripture with Scripture instead of making up personal views about who are the firstfruits. The Bible is it's own interpreter, the Bible is it's own dictionary, the Bible defines it's own terms! That's what sound hermeneutics is founded upon. I will testify to the witness of scripture, God's word says that we all (believers) are the firstfruits. That's not my word, that's the word of God not subject to ignoring or casting aside.

Exodus 23:16

• "And the feast of harvest, the Firstfruits of thy labors, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of in gathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labors out of the field."

Here God puts the two feasts together. The first feast of the harvest of the firstfruits, and the feast of Tabernacles when they gather in the harvest at the end of the year (Exodus 34:22). Tabernacles is appropriately called "ingathering" here as it commemorates the final ingathering pointing to the salvation program. The three feasts were to be observed annually, but the last feast commemorated the end of year harvest when the last gathering in of the labors of the field take place. Note also how God marvelously uses the wordings here for firstfruits of harvest as labors that are sown in the field, which is Pentecost, pointing to the Holy Spirit. But for the end of year Tabernacle harvest, God uses the language of them being gathered "Out" of the field, which points to the increase. Literally,

"..and the feast of the in gathering, in the out-going of the year, in thy gathering thy works out of the field."

The early feast of Firstfruits that are sown in the field, are contrasted with the end of year feast of Tabernacles and the gathering out of the field. In the three feasts where Israel was to go to Jerusalem, we have the figure pointing to the completion or fulfillment of the New Covenant Period. On the exact day of harvest of firstfruits (Pentecost) the pouring out of the Holy Spirit occurred, that many would be exercised thereby, and also become firstfruits of God. They are born of the Spirit, firstfruits unto God.

James 1:18

• "Of His own will begat He us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of Firstfruits of His creatures."

We are the firstfruits because Christ was the Firstfruit. And thus, in Him we were raised up unto newness of life. There is a great harvest of souls taking place throughout the whole world because He has made us the firstfruits of God, by pouring out of His Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Concerning this outpouring of the Spirit the prophet Joel said, "the floors shall be full of wheat." And indeed they are, for this was the fulfillment of the feast of firstfruits. There was a precise timetable that had to be followed in these feasts, and they all were followed meticulously.

The fact is, God had these three annual feasts for Israel planned from the start. The number three is scripture is often used to illustrate God's Purpose or God's Will (e.g., John 2:19; Acts 11:10; 1John 5:7-8; Rev. 21:13. By these three annual feasts and pilgrimages to Jerusalem, He demonstrated His predetermination that the Passover sacrifice that the children of Israel were to make, pointed to the true Passover, Christ. He predetermined that the firstfruits of the increase of the field pointed to the true Firstfruit, Christ. And He predetermined that the sacrifice by fire for the feast of Tabernacles pointed to the true Tabernacle, Christ. Anyone who thinks that the feast of Tabernacles isn't also pointing to Christ, has certainly not been reading the scriptures very carefully. From the time of Christ's death, (the sacrifice efficacy for this feast) to the time of Christ's return (the harvest), the children of Israel are keeping the feast of Tabernacles by partaking in that everlasting sacrifice by fire. The covenant week of Daniel 9:27 prefigured Israel's "true" wilderness sojourn after Christ delivered us from the bondage of spiritual Egypt, in His body.

He does not need us to make up things that are plainly written. When symbolism is used it's pretty easy to tell. This does not give us a license to reject what is written.

Huh? Where is your rebuttal with Scripture instead of blabbing some personal opinions? I am waiting.

Oh I detect the spirit of Churchology. Who do you strudy under?

The Holy Spirit. Not the church or men's traditions. Didn't you read the Scripture and understand God's Word, spiritual discerned?

1Co 2:13-14
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The question is do you really know who the first fruits really are that the Lord talked about? It depends if you have carnal eyes or spiritual eyes.

And thanks for a warm welcome to this thirsty forum that need to hear the Gospel Truth.