Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Davy]

OK, you can discuss this with "them", who ever "they" are.

What a bunch of nonsense!

Much love!

The nonsense is what the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors wrongly teach that all the Seals happen first, and then all the Trumpets happen next, and then all the Vials happen last.

Just as you do, they REJECT the Scripture evidence that shows the EVENTS of Christ's coming in the SEALS, and in the TRUMPETS, and in the VIALS.

Thusly, they are NOT following God's Word as written, they are following what some pre-trib rapture leader in some far away city tells them to think.

 

[marks]

It's easy to tell that you aren't that familiar with the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. Even the Zechariah 14 events of Christ's future coming you can't understand.

That would be your opinion then, and is not reflective of reality, simply your opinion derived from your perceptions plus any other biases you may happen to have. Like, I have a different view than yours, therefore I simply must not be familiar with the material.

It's ad hominem in that it's off topic, and onto me. Yawn!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Yes, I understand YHWH - Jesus - is coming to the earth to rule. However, you are not placing that in the vision as John wrote it down. In his vision, his context is plainly given. Unless you have something that shows the context is changed - in that vision - we need to accept it as it's given.

Much love!

Nah..., you actually mean the vision that the false Pre-trib Rapture prophets have taught you, and you accepted what they say, instead of God's Word as written.


Apostle John was shown by Christ in Revelation 16:15-17 that He comes "as a thief" as Jesus is there warning His Church still, which means what??? It means Jesus had still NOT YET COME to gather His Church by that 6th Vial timing! Instead His coming is shown with the 7th Vial. And that "as a thief" marker He used there is a hard link back to Matthew 24 where He taught His faithful servants to WATCH.

Then the next Rev.16:16 verse is about the gathering of Satan's armies on earth in prep for the battle of Armageddon, the very battle mentioned in Zechariah 14 linked with the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes (last day of this world).

Then the next Rev.16:17 verse is when the final 7th Vial is poured out upon this earth on the last day, which is when Jesus comes and gathers His Church, and His cup of Wrath is poured out upon the wicked. It is also the day when God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth according to Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3.

What Zechariah 14 reveals about the day of Christ's coming is that He comes to do battle, and His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, forming a very great valley there, and bringing ALL... His saints with Him there.

So HOW can Jesus bring the "asleep" saints there with Him if that "day of the Lord" is not the day of the resurrection? And the 'asleep' saints Apostle Paul made it clear, that those of us still alive on earth in no way will precede ("prevent") those asleep saints that have died! Thus the "asleep" saints definitely DO NOT RESURRECT prior to the great tribulation, for that idea is nowhere written in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

That would be your opinion then, and is not reflective of reality, simply your opinion derived from your perceptions plus any other biases you may happen to have. Like, I have a different view than yours, therefore I simply must not be familiar with the material.

It's ad hominem in that it's off topic, and onto me. Yawn!

Much love!

Not my opinion. Your lack of understanding Scripture I quote from the Old Testament prophets reveals you're not that familiar. It's easy to tell. "You may fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time", so goes the old saying.

 

[Davy]

Yes, I understand YHWH - Jesus - is coming to the earth to rule. However, you are not placing that in the vision as John wrote it down. In his vision, his context is plainly given. Unless you have something that shows the context is changed - in that vision - we need to accept it as it's given.

Much love!

I just placed that IN ACCORDANCE WITH JOHN'S VISIONS of the Book of Revelation that Jesus gave him.

So you are only talking out of your... wrong end.

 

[marks]

Nah..., you actually mean the vision that the false Pre-trib Rapture prophets have taught you, and you accepted what they say, instead of God's Word as written.

I'm talking about John's vision recorded in the Revelation.

This has digressed into fallacies now, so I'm bowing out.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I'm talking about John's vision recorded in the Revelation.

This has digressed into fallacies now, so I'm bowing out.

Much love!

Why then do you keep throwing out incoherent ideas like "John's vision" then? The whole Book of Revelation that Jesus gave John was by vision!

Do you think I'm not aware of the false "John's vision" idea you are pointing to that is pushed by the false Pre-trib Rapture School?

In Revelation 1:10, when John was said he was in The Spirit on the Lord's day, you think that was really about the rapture of the Church? That's silly, nothing written there about a rapture of the Church.

Likewise, in Revelation 4, you think the vision John was shown there also while in The Spirit, about the 24 elders, was about a rapture of the Church? Nah... that's not what that's about at all, because NO ONE receives a 'crown' of life until the day of Jesus' FUTURE RETURN.

The fake Pre-trib Rapture School doctors simply are not smart enough to understand that was a 'vision' John was being given of a time AFTER Christ's future return and the rewards having been handed out.

The Pre-trib Rapture School makes up so many lies against the written Scriptures that it's pathetic.

 

[Earburner]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.

Hi Davy, I agree with much of what you say.
In my understanding, I am not trying to divert from what you say, but rather to help all to perceive that our God, through our Savior the Lord Jesus, thinks and speaks at all times, in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Isa. 55:8-9.

Therefore, what I am saying about the 144,000, is WHEN it had it's beginning with Israel, because it most assuredly IS ABOUT Israel, and not the Gentiles.


Explanation A:
ln your belief system about OC Israel, are you understanding the comparative association between KJV Malachi 3:16 and Revelation 6:9-11, being those who are under the altar?
If you do, then you should agree that none of them were bodily resurrected, but were given the Gift of Christ's Spirit, and then were told that they were to rest until their fellow brethren should be killed also as they were.

BTW, the word "altar" also means a structure erected in reference to places, people and/or events for "remembrance".

It indeed is relevant, so that you may see and understand that ever since Jesus' Ascension into Heaven, and the giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, God the Father through His Son, HAS BEEN COMING to each and everyone of us (John 14:18) on a personal level (John 14:23, Revelation 3:20), seeking to create within us His New Life, by enabling us to be "born again of His Spirit", so that we may have the forgiveness of sins and the Gift of God's Eternal Life.

Our resurrection is a two stage process.
First, we must have His Holy Spirit within us, otherwise we cannot be physically resurrected into the likeness if His Immortality. Romans 8:8-9.
Second, because we have received His Holy Spirit, and are made to be partakers of the divine nature, we have already been given the Gift of Eternal Life. 1 John 5:12-13. By His Holy Spirit within us, we are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30.

All that we are waiting for, whether we are physically alive or dead, is to be bodily resurrected into His Immortality (Him to be glorified in us) in the Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven with His mighty angels.
2 Thessalonians 1:10

The OT Saints, in the book of "Remembrance" HAD TO HAVE the Gift of His Holy Spirit also, otherwise they could not and would not be resurrected either. Romans 8:9 would fully apply to them, as being " none of His", which is now not the case, as Revelation 6:9-11 clearly reveals. They who were "remembered" (Malachi 3:16), are NOW in the "Book of Life", who is Jesus.

Though the following may be repetitious, it's only for reinforcing the reality of what has actually already transpired and as a result, it is NOT anything future.
It's important to note that prior to Jesus' first appearance, no one had yet received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ and God the Father. Though the Saints that are shown in Malachi had died in faith of the Messiah to come, they had not yet received "the Promise" of Eternal life. They are shown to have received that Gift in Revelation 6:9-11, being on the Day of Pentecost.
ALL of Israel who were of faith, PRIOR to Jesus' resurrection and Ascension, of His coming as the Promised One, have also been saved/sealed by God's Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, until the Day of Redemption. Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 7:4-8.
2B Cont'd

 

[Earburner]

Cont'd from my post #68:

 What we see in the verses of Revelation above, is that of Malachi 3:16, having been also fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Those who were written in the book of "Remembrance" have been given the Gift of Jesus' Holy Spirit, having the Father within Himself, and therefore they who were "remembered", ARE now in the Book of Life, who is Jesus Himself.

OC Israel of faith, ARE the symbolic 144,000, being that of a symbolic number of 12,000 "remembered" by God from out of the 12 tribes, each "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of Christ, on the Day of Pentecost.

Now, in Revelation 7 we are going to discover a truth about "tribulation", which is not in any way describing the religious denominational view, of what "tribulation" means to them.
Revelation 7[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
> Who were the people that the elder was pointing to that were arrayed in "white robes"?
Those who were under the altar (of remembrance- Malachi 3:16) Revelation 7:4-9.
What does a white robe symbolize?
The seal of God, the Gift of their Holy Spirit, being that of The Spirit of Jesus, having the Spirit of God the Father within himself, coming to permanently to dwell within us. (Matthew 14:23)

Revelation 7[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Did OC Israel of faith suffer great tribulation under the OC?
They most surely did, and God did not forget them!

Who are they who are of the "great multitude"?
All Saints, both Jew and Gentile, who have come to God through faith in Jesus, under his New Covenant, ever since Pentecost. For since then, before God, in Christ Jesus, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Romans 10:12

Explanation B
Yes, all of such, who WERE Israel of faith in the Messiah (the Promise) to come, had their names written in the "Book of remembrance" (BoR). Malachi 3:16
Though they died in faith, being many "out of great tribulation", they were still waiting to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit through Jesus.
Prior to Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, the Holy Spirit of God could only visit upon them, but never could He dwell within them permanently, until the shedding of Christ's blood.
However, on the Day of Pentecost, those whose names were written in the BoR, were given the free gift of the Holy Spirit also.
We can see them under the altar in Revelation 6:9-11.
Today, they are resting, now asleep in Jesus (paradise), who is The Book of Life, made ready and are NOW waiting for their bodily resurrection upon the Day of Jesus' Glorious return, in the flaming fire of His Immortality.
Romans 8:9.

The words remembrance and altar
are synonymous of people, places and/or events whereby a structure is placed for people who are living, that they should remember.
God, who is Eternal, did not forget them, who were under the altar.
They are the symbolic 144,000.

Explanation C:
Born again Christians who have died, are spiritually NOT in their graves. John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
1Thes.4[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I am assuming that many believe of who the symbolic 144,000 are, is other than what I described.

Explanation D: ("No more death")
Unfortunately, many have it backwards. They have forgotten about the Israel of faith who were looking FORWARD for the Promise to come, who was Jesus.
You and I may have forgotten about them, but God did not. Malachi 3:16. They are the symbolic 144,000. They are the temple complete of Israel, who were under the OC., but never during their lifetime, could they receive the permanent indwelling of the Spirit of God the Father, His Holy Spirit.

But now, because of the shed blood of Christ, all of the OC saints have been translated into the "book of Life", and are now asleep in Jesus, being made ready by the gift of His Holy Spirit that IS NOW within them, waiting for the day of their resurrection into immortality upon Jesus' return. Rev. 6:9-11. These are they of whom Jesus will bring with Him, on that Day.
1 Thes. 4
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation which proves that the 144,000 are in heaven before the great tribulation.

Or it could be referring to those beheaded on the earth while the 144k are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over. Then the 144k are those on white horses coming to Armageddon.

Still not the church. The church is in Paradise from the Cross until the NHNE. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom on the earth.

 

[The Light]

Or it could be referring to those beheaded on the earth while the 144k are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over.

The 144,000 do not wait for Satans 42 months to be over. Being that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins, the 42 months over in wrath which is a least a year past the time the tribulation is over, ie the tribulation is over just before the 6th seal when Jesus comes for the second harvest.

Then the 144k are those on white horses coming to Armageddon.

The 144,000 are likely part of those on white horses

Still not the church. The church is in Paradise from the Cross until the NHNE. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom on the earth.

No. The 144,000 are not the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, they are first fruits of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. They are firstfruits of those harvested from the earth at the 6th seal before wrath.

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy, I agree with much of what you say.
In my understanding, I am not trying to divert from what you say, but rather to help all to perceive that our God, through our Savior the Lord Jesus, thinks and speaks at all times, in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Isa. 55:8-9.

Well, first off, if the mind tries to think in riddles, then the result will not be understanding. That Isaiah 55:8-9 Scripture is God simply saying that His thoughts and ways are not like man's thoughts and ways. It's because man cannot compare to God's Eternal vastness. So that's not some 'mysticism' like saying. God isn't hiding a time machine with what He said there. Think in mystery and that's all your understanding will produce. Keep the simplicity that is God's written Word and understanding becomes easy.

Therefore, what I am saying about the 144,000, is WHEN it had it's beginning with Israel, because it most assuredly IS ABOUT Israel, and not the Gentiles.



Explanation A:
ln your belief system about OC Israel, are you understanding the comparative association between KJV Malachi 3:16 and Revelation 6:9-11, being those who are under the altar?
If you do, then you should agree that none of them were bodily resurrected, but were given the Gift of Christ's Spirit, and then were told that they were to rest until their fellow brethren should be killed also as they were.

You're changing the topic. The 144,000 Israelites of Rev.7 have nothing to do with those shown under the Altar on the 5th Seal, except that some that go through the "great tribulation" must be killed as those souls were.

As for the idea of those souls under the Altar having been resurrected, their spirits were with God, otherwise they could not ask God how long. If you believe the old false Jewish tradition that we are literally asleep in the casket when we die, then you have missed a whole lot of New Testament Scripture, especially about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" at His resurrection and preaching The Gospel to them, so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live unto God in the spirit (1 Peter 3 & 4).

BTW, the word "altar" also means a structure erected in reference to places, people and/or events for "remembrance".

The Greek word for "altar" in Rev.6:9 on the 5th Seal means the traditional altar of sacrifice, not some mystical meaning you are trying to turn it into, like some false occult Kabbalistic idea.

What you have said so far is enough proof for me to suggest that you have been involved in the occult Jewish mysticism of their 9th century Kabbalah. That mystical system is not from God, even though He did hide things with Acrostics in His Word. That is the reason why you are so ready to 'change' the meanings of simple words written in God's Word, like that word "altar".

 

[Earburner]

Well, first off, if the mind tries to think in riddles, then the result will not be understanding. That Isaiah 55:8-9 Scripture is God simply saying that His thoughts and ways are not like man's thoughts and ways. It's because man cannot compare to God's Eternal vastness. So that's not some 'mysticism' like saying. God isn't hiding a time machine with what He said there. Think in mystery and that's all your understanding will produce. Keep the simplicity that is God's written Word and understanding becomes easy.



You're changing the topic. The 144,000 Israelites of Rev.7 have nothing to do with those shown under the Altar on the 5th Seal, except that some that go through the "great tribulation" must be killed as those souls were.

As for the idea of those souls under the Altar having been resurrected, their spirits were with God, otherwise they could not ask God how long. If you believe the old false Jewish tradition that we are literally asleep in the casket when we die, then you have missed a whole lot of New Testament Scripture, especially about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" at His resurrection and preaching The Gospel to them, so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live unto God in the spirit (1 Peter 3 & 4).



The Greek word for "altar" in Rev.6:9 on the 5th Seal means the traditional altar of sacrifice, not some mystical meaning you are trying to turn it into, like some false occult Kabbalistic idea.

What you have said so far is enough proof for me to suggest that you have been involved in the occult Jewish mysticism of their 9th century Kabbalah. That mystical system is not from God, even though He did hide things with Acrostics in His Word. That is the reason why you are so ready to 'change' the meanings of simple words written in God's Word, like that word "altar".

In order for you, and all of like mind, to hold on to your false belief about a special time for the Jews, there is one HUGE pillar of argument that is purposely being ignored, and that is Rom. 10:12.

Who are they, who are of the "great multitude"?
All Saints, both Jew and Gentile, who have come to God through faith in Jesus, under his New Covenant, ever since Pentecost. For ever since then, before God, in Christ Jesus, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile. Romans 10:12

Unfortunately, for anyone to say that the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, during the time of the Great tribulation, will be living born again Jews, of a separate/special class of Jews, is breaking the scripture of Rom. 10:12.
The Great Tribulation takes place under the NEW Covenant. And under the NC, there is no distinction to God about who is a Jew and who is not.

As for whatever you want to tag me with of Jewish mysticism and the Kabbalah, you have no idea as to how different "the power of God" is, by "the mind of Christ" within me.
It is extremely opposed to the rampant, vivid imaginations by "the wisdom of men" that operate in the pulpits of "church-ianity".1 Cor. 2:5.
Thoughts like yours, are a product of them, who are "coming in the Lord's name, saying that Jesus is the Christ, deceiving many".

You have much on target about the Jews of faith, but you are willing to forget WHEN that was. Church-ianity may want to forget about the Jews under the OC (the altar of Remembrance), but God DID NOT. They are now written in the book of Life, who is Jesus Himself. Rev. 6:9-11.

Edit: If you want to see one of those Jews (of the 144,000), whose OC faith was in action, you might want to look at Simeon- in Luke 2, and Nathanael- in John 1

 

[Timtofly]

The 144,000 do not wait for Satans 42 months to be over. Being that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins, the 42 months over in wrath which is a least a year past the time the tribulation is over, ie the tribulation is over just before the 6th seal when Jesus comes for the second harvest.

The 144,000 are likely part of those on white horses


No. The 144,000 are not the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, they are first fruits of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. They are firstfruits of those harvested from the earth at the 6th seal before wrath.

They still live on the earth during the Millennium, so the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom.

Armageddon is the end of Satan's 42 months. Of course they come down from mount Zion after waiting there for those 42 months to end. They don't leave the day before Armageddon, and then do a U turn.

 

[quietthinker]

They still live on the earth during the Millennium, so the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom.

Armageddon is the end of Satan's 42 months. Of course they come down from mount Zion after waiting there for those 42 months to end. They don't leave the day before Armageddon, and then do a U turn.

How does one tell when a dead horse is being flogged but the flogger thinks it's up and racing?

 

[Davy]

Unfortunately, for anyone to say that the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, during the time of the Great tribulation, will be living born again Jews, of a separate/special class of Jews, is breaking the scripture of Rom. 10:12.
The Great Tribulation takes place under the NEW Covenant. And under the NC, there is no distinction to God about who is a Jew and who is not.

You are wrong, and are doing nothing but giving an opinion on the 144,000 while REJECTING what that Rev.7 Scripture actually says as written.

That Scripture apparently is not the only Bible Scriptures you reject, because the 'sealing' of the 144,000 is specifically in prep for the great tribulation, as revealed in Rev.9. And the Biblical FACT that the "great multitude" is shown standing before Christ and His throne afterwards is also a pointer of ALL of those having been sealed too, and having gone through the great tribulation also. And since the "great multitude" is not singled out AS being from the seed of Israel, like the 144,000 are, it means that "great multitude" is pointing to 'sealed' GENTILES.

Not only this, but you also obviously do not understand the difference between Israelites of the JEWS, and Israelites born of the ten lost tribes of Israel who historically were not known as JEWS.

 

[Earburner]

You are wrong, and are doing nothing but giving an opinion on the 144,000 while REJECTING what that Rev.7 Scripture actually says as written.

That Scripture apparently is not the only Bible Scriptures you reject, because the 'sealing' of the 144,000 is specifically in prep for the great tribulation, as revealed in Rev.9. And the Biblical FACT that the "great multitude" is shown standing before Christ and His throne afterwards is also a pointer of ALL of those having been sealed too, and having gone through the great tribulation also. And since the "great multitude" is not singled out AS being from the seed of Israel, like the 144,000 are, it means that "great multitude" is pointing to 'sealed' GENTILES.

Not only this, but you also obviously do not understand the difference between Israelites of the JEWS, and Israelites born of the ten lost tribes of Israel who historically were not known as JEWS.

Lol, I clearly do point to the Israel OF FAITH, being that of Malachi 3:16, and the literal description Rev. 7:4-8, showing that the symbolic 144,000 are OF the tribes of Israel, and not Gentiles.

That is NOT a future situation, under the NC. For today, ever since Pentecost, ALL are declared by God to be equally sinful.
Rom.3
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom.10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

In brief, under the present Grace of God, no Jew/Israelite has the preeminence over a Gentile, through faith in Christ. All are equal before Him.
God IS NOT making any distinction between them, but through the "religion" of "your thoughts and ways", you ARE.

 

[Davy]

Lol, I clearly do point to the Israel OF FAITH, being that of Malachi 3:16, and the literal description Rev. 7:4-8, showing that the symbolic 144,000 are OF the tribes of Israel, and not Gentiles.

That is NOT a future situation, under the NC. For today, ever since Pentecost, ALL are declared by God to be equally sinful.
Rom.3
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom.10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

In brief, under the present Grace of God, no Jew/Israelite has the preeminence over a Gentile, through faith in Christ. All are equal before Him.
God IS NOT making any distinction between them, but through the "religion" of "your thoughts and ways", you ARE.

Rev.7 is not about any such "preeminence over a Gentile". That's just your imagination talking to you.

Rev.7 is a Salvation chapter about BOTH 'sealed' Israelites and 'sealed' Gentiles.

And don't try to sell me dreamed up stuff that anyone in Christ's future Kingdom can sit upon those 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel promised only to Christ's 12 chosen Apostles.

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Does what Lord Jesus said above offend you, because He pointed out that ONLY His chosen JEWISH Apostles will sit upon those 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Did Lord Jesus also offend you because He showed by that the continued existence of the nation of Israel with those "twelve tribes"?

Are you gonna' try to tell me that Gentiles make up those "twelve tribes of Israel" in His future Kingdom?

You misunderstand Paul about no difference regarding Christ's Salvation to the Israelite and Gentile that believes. That is about His Saving Grace, not the Promises that are Specifically Reserved for the seed of Israel, like those 12 thrones promised to His 12 chosen Apostles who were all Jews.

 

[Earburner]

Rev.7 is not about any such "preeminence over a Gentile". That's just your imagination talking to you.

Rev.7 is a Salvation chapter about BOTH 'sealed' Israelites and 'sealed' Gentiles.

And don't try to sell me dreamed up stuff that anyone in Christ's future Kingdom can sit upon those 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel promised only to Christ's 12 chosen Apostles.

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Does what Lord Jesus said above offend you, because He pointed out that ONLY His chosen JEWISH Apostles will sit upon those 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Did Lord Jesus also offend you because He showed by that the continued existence of the nation of Israel with those "twelve tribes"?

Are you gonna' try to tell me that Gentiles make up those "twelve tribes of Israel" in His future Kingdom?

You misunderstand Paul about no difference regarding Christ's Salvation to the Israelite and Gentile that believes. That is about His Saving Grace, not the Promises that are Specifically Reserved for the seed of Israel, like those 12 thrones promised to His 12 chosen Apostles who were all Jews.

You don't get it. There are no more promises for or to Israel, except that they come to "the judgment seat of Christ" NOW, UNDER the Grace of God for ALL people. John 3:18.

The Jews/Israel are no longer any kind of a special people to God, over and above any Gentile.

Except for the Promise that was to come to them (Jesus), all the promises of the OC are now dysfunctional, and are NEVER going to be performed or repeated in any kind of "a wanna be" "future millennium on earth".
You are following the slop of "the wisdom of men" (church-ianity), which is where we are NOT to put our faith. 1 Cor. 2:5.

 

[Earburner]

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Does what Lord Jesus said above offend you, because He pointed out that ONLY His chosen JEWISH Apostles will sit upon those 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Did Lord Jesus also offend you because He showed by that the continued existence of the nation of Israel with those "twelve tribes"?

And here is THAT judgment, which is still going on, as long as God's Grace IS ACTIVE THROUGH HAVING FAITH IN JESUS.
Matt.23
[39] For I say unto you [Jews/Israel], Ye shall not see/perceive me henceforth,
till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why should the Jews call "born again Christians" "blessed"?
Only they have the authority of the Holy Spirit, to lead one to Christ. Which is directly connected to the two judgments of John 3:18.

Don't you know that Jews coming to the Lord, has been going on in every generation of Israel, ever since Pentecost, and that it is ONLY going to be by THAT WAY??