Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?

[robert derrick]

Well, I guess I believe you, but you didn't do a very good job of communicating that.

That was your feelings getting hurt, because I call you out for what you are.

To which you have not refuted anything I have said. But only got your feelings hurt by what I say about your heroic paganism in Jesus' name.

Maybe consider a course in diplomacy? As it is, I just see rage. Hard to take very seriously.

You slander the name of Jesus as a son and a god. Forget diplomacy with pagans.

And since you refute none of what I rebuked you with, you are the unserious child here.

Trying counterpointing. That is what I call serious diplomacy.

Show me a lever of Scriptural integrity that I can respect.

 

[Episkopos]

Maybe consider a course in diplomacy? As it is, I just see rage. Hard to take very seriously.

Or maybe surrendering one's carnal nature to be dealt with by the cross...dogmatic beliefs notwithstanding?

 

[Rich R]

Forget diplomacy with pagans.

Right. God has no interest in saving Pagans, so no point in trying to use goodness to lead them to repentance.

Oh...wait, God does want Pagans to be saved.

1 Tim 2:4,

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

And it is goodness that God uses to lead the Pagan to repentance.

Rom 2:4,

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
​

But that's just God's opinion. Derick knows that it is really vitriol, hate, and bashing that leads one to the truth.

 

[Rich R]

Or maybe surrendering one's carnal nature to be dealt with by the cross...dogmatic beliefs notwithstanding?

Good point!

 

[Wrangler]

So who is Jesus to a "rank heretic?"

1. In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
2. In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
3. In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
4. In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
5. In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
6. In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
7. In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
8. In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
9. In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
10. In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
11. In Chronicles he is the King's son.
12. In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
13. In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
14. In Job he is the daysman.
15. In Psalms he is the song.
16. In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
17. In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
18. In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
19. In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
20. In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
21. In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
22. In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
23. In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
24. In Hosea he is the latter rain.
25. In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
26. In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
27. In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
28. In Jonah he is our salvation.
29. In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
30. In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
31. In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
32. In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
33. In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
34. In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
35. In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
36. In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
37. In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
38. In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
39. In John he is Jehovah's Son.
40. In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
41. In Romans he is the believers' justification.
42. In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
43. In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
44. In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
45. In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
46. In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
47. In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
48. In Timothy he is the faithful men.
49. In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
50. In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
51. In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
52. In James he is the royal law.
53. In Peter he is the pastor.
54. In John he is as we are.
55. In Jude he is the beloved.
56. In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Trinitarians have a + dogma. While they agree with everything above, they assert he is also his own Father, who alone is God.

 

[robert derrick]

Trinitarians have a + dogma. While they agree with everything above, they assert he is also his own Father, who alone is God.

No we don't agree with everything your fellow idolator slipped in there.

And you can go peddle your carnal ignorance elsewhere. Just as pagans of old, you conclude the Son must also be His Father, and He obeyed Himself, and yada yada yada.

Who is Jesus to a non-trinitarian?

A pagan son of God and deified hero worthy of cult worship.

Your forefather monotheist Jews has Him crucified, and your pagan forefathers had Christian heretics killed for rejecting the gods and declaring Jesus to the true God and and Son of Father.

Whether pagan or atheist, it's always something to see them try and tell Christians what they think and how they should live.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Since JESUS Is YHWH God Almighty, just seems respectful to me to "honor Both
The Father And The SON" (LORD of all, LORD of lords) (John_5:22-23). Amen.

GRACE, Peace, and JOY!

Who deserves the most honor?

A man with free will, tempted just like you and I, who followed God's will to perfection, including a most horrendous death.
would not deserve honor? He had to be YHWH to get that honor?

They BOTH Deserve The Most Honor. How am I going to tell God, The
Righteous JUDGE, That "I did not give HIM The Most Honor"?

Did not Paul say:

Rom_13:7 "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to
whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to
whom fear; honour to whom honour."​

Now I could be mistaken about "giving God The Most Honor" Due Him.
I Seriously believe it MUST be done in THIS life, because JUDGMENT
Day will be TOO LATE, Correct?:

34. JESUS ALONE Is The Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge Is God - Isaiah 33:22; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 18:8, Revelation 20:12; Hebrews 13:4; Romans 2:3, Romans 2:5 -

JESUS Is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God Being The Judge Refer To JESUS, Since He Alone Judges. The Father judges no man - John 5:22.

+

160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD -
Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing To Is

JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11! ​

Today's believers "members In The Body Of Christ" who, in THIS life, have
Already "confessed To God," have THIS Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15):

"...For other foundation can no man lay than That is laid, Which Is
Jesus Christ..." THE Righteous Judge, as per 34 and 160 above, Correct?

How about all Unbelievers At This JUDGMENT (Rev 20:11-15):

"And I saw A Great White Throne, and Him That sat on it,
from Whose Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and
there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small
and great, stand before God;..."​

Now as prophesied in Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:11
in 160 above, Are these The Rest Of "the Every tongue, and
Every knee that Shall Bow, and Confess To God!"?

Since The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God, The Righteous JUDGE,
The The MOST Honor IS "Due TO HIM!" Correct?
-----------------------------------------------------------
And, then of course, there Are Still These Words Of Truth:

500 Plain And Clear Passages that we Still need to pay heed to, Correct?

GRACE, Peace, and JOY!

 

[APAK]

No we don't agree with everything your fellow idolator slipped in there.

And you can go peddle your carnal ignorance elsewhere. Just as pagans of old, you conclude the Son must also be His Father, and He obeyed Himself, and yada yada yada.

Who is Jesus to a non-trinitarian?

A pagan son of God and deified hero worthy of cult worship.

Your forefather monotheist Jews has Him crucified, and your pagan forefathers had Christian heretics killed for rejecting the gods and declaring Jesus to the true God and and Son of Father.

Whether pagan or atheist, it's always something to see them try and tell Christians what they think and how they should live.

Robert, why the rage in your fingers? Are you serving love and joy or serving strife, hate and death in the service of your god? And you only know who is your god you worship? Mine is a loving God that brings joy to my heart, everyday. I miss this joy at times when the other god gets in the way, to rob me of this joy. Does that happen to you at times?

 

[robert derrick]

Robert, why the rage in your fingers? Are you serving love and joy or serving strife, hate and death in the service of your god? And you only know who is your god you worship? Mine is a loving God that brings joy to my heart, everyday. I miss this joy at times when the other god gets in the way, to rob me of this joy. Does that happen to you at times?

Not at all.

Only sinning can rob me of the my God and Lord Jesus Christ.

And rebuking pagan lies is actually quite satisfying and fun for me. I enjoy it more than any other thing on this earth. (Well, almost. My wife is a real hottie)

You see, the hate card, is either the first or last refuge of the unserious child.

And I'm glad you have happiness in this life, which the true God Jesus does not begrudge even the idolator, so long as he is not also a perjurer, rapist, fornicator, etc...

If you don't want your paganism rebuked plainly, then don't try to post it for pseudo doctrine of Christ.:)

That's all. But if you persist, and by sound argument of Scripture continue to be reproved, then at least be enough an adult not to respond like a big bay with his wittle feeling heart.

Believe me, it gets no respect from me. Nor does it correct me in any way.:)

idolators do not instruct me in how to love my Lord and my God Jesus, and so love my neighbor as myself.:)

As was once in woefully false doctrine myself, until the time I began to be rightly corrected by the truth of Scripture, so that I am truly grateful and thankful more than a decade of my adult life did not continue unto death.

You however are different. At least at this time anyway.

You see? I'm really a happy guy. Don't take it so personal. Grow up already, and try refuting the arguments more honestly.:):)

I know, maybe I'll start putting up more emoticons, so that people don't get so gravely worried about my soul.:cool:

 

[APAK]

Not at all.

Only sinning can rob me of the my God and Lord Jesus Christ.

And rebuking pagan lies is actually quite satisfying and fun for me. I enjoy it more than any other thing on this earth. (Well, almost. My wife is a real hottie)

You see, the hate card, is either the first or last refuge of the unserious child.

And I'm glad you have happiness in this life, which the true God Jesus does not begrudge even the idolator, so long as he is not also a perjurer, rapist, fornicator, etc...

If you don't want your paganism rebuked plainly, then don't try to post it for pseudo doctrine of Christ.:)

That's all. But if you persist, and by sound argument of Scripture continue to be reproved, then at least be enough an adult not to respond like a big bay with his wittle feeling heart.

Believe me, it gets no respect from me. Nor does it correct me in any way.:)

idolators do not instruct me in how to love my Lord and my God Jesus, and so love my neighbor as myself.:)

As was once in woefully false doctrine myself, until the time I began to be rightly corrected by the truth of Scripture, so that I am truly grateful and thankful more than a decade of my adult life did not continue unto death.

You however are different. At least at this time anyway.

You see? I'm really a happy guy. Don't take it so personal. Grow up already, and try refuting the arguments more honestly.:):)

I know, maybe I'll start putting up more emoticons, so that people don't get so gravely worried about my soul.:cool:

I see, so now what do you do with all this emotional outburst spilled into your writing, where does it go from here? So do you think by adding in emoticons will do the trick, and make folks not worry about you? I wonder....

 

[Rich R]

Trinitarians have a + dogma. While they agree with everything above, they assert he is also his own Father, who alone is God.

I don't even understand why they think it so critical to our redemption that Jesus be God. Most staunch Trinitarians probably don't know either. You'd sure have to go outside the scriptures to come up with an answer. But whatever they came up with still wouldn't make sense. You just can't made a son his own father. Why gum up the machinery by saying they can be one and the same? Still, can't forget we all are children of God. Some kids might behave better than others, but you can't take the seed out of the baby! :)

 

[Wrangler]

I don't even understand why they think it so critical to our redemption that Jesus be God.

I too have asked this question many times, most recently to 2 pastors in writing. The answers were disappointing to say the least, both saying Scripture is 'clear' followed by the usual vague verses that are nothing like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

 

[Rich R]

34. JESUS ALONE Is The Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge Is God - Isaiah 33:22; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 18:8, Revelation 20:12; Hebrews 13:4; Romans 2:3, Romans 2:5 -

JESUS Is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God Being The Judge Refer To JESUS, Since He Alone Judges. The Father judges no man - John 5:22.

Very true. A close look at John 5:22 is revealing. It should be kept in mind when reading the other verse you quoted.

John 5:22,(ERV)

For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;​

Since the Father gave judgment to the son I think we can conclude two things:

1. The Father had the power of judgment all along.
2. At some point, the Father gave that power of judgment to His son, Jesus
3. Prior to the Father giving the power of judgment to Jesus, Jesus did not have that power

Here's another verse along the same lines:

John 3:35,

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.​

I would think that would raise a question as to why, at some point in time, one part of God had something, i.e. judgment and all things, that another part didn't have. Aren't they all equal?

 

[APAK]

I too have asked this question many times, most recently to 2 pastors in writing. The answers were disappointing to say the least, both saying Scripture is 'clear' followed by the usual vague verses that are nothing like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

The Athanasian Creed of the 5th-6th century, was the 1st creed to expose the Trinity doctrine that also included words that said if a person does not believe it (the Creed), they will perish in eternal death. Is that what the word of God says? They made themselves a grand cult and following, even today.

 

[GEN2REV]

Making Jesus God simply minimizes the greatness of both God and His son. God became little more than a bully who did whatever He wanted to do despite man's free will, That would be a perfect description of all the other Ancient Near East gods, but it's an insult to the greatness of our God, YHWH.

How do you conclude these two things?

Jesus being God minimizes the greatness of God and Jesus? If they are one and the same ... AND ALMIGHTY GREAT GOD, how does that minimize them?

And how does it make God a bully?

If anything, claiming that Jesus is NOT God minimizes Jesus Christ.

And, for the record, nobody, with this opinion you have, has ever once answered my question "Who/what is Jesus if not God?"

Do you believe He's a mortal?

Do you believe He became divine after His life, but not God?

How does His unequaled sacrifice, and what it accomplished, work if He's not God?

Note: I didn't even ask about all the verses that show He's God.

 

[Wrangler]

How do you conclude these two things?

Jesus being God minimizes the greatness of God and Jesus?

Re-read the OP. He explained it well. My 1st post (Post #10) in this thread explained fairly well also.

Do you believe He's a mortal?

I know Jesus is mortal. It is a historical fact that he died. This is how we know he is not God, who is immortal. See the difference?

 

[Rich R]

How do you conclude these two things?

Jesus being God minimizes the greatness of God and Jesus? If they are one and the same ... AND ALMIGHTY GREAT GOD, how does that minimize them?

And how does it make God a bully?

If anything, claiming that Jesus is NOT God minimizes Jesus Christ.

And, for the record, nobody, with this opinion you have, has ever once answered my question "Who/what is Jesus if not God?"

Do you believe He's a mortal?

Do you believe He became divine after His life, but not God?

How does His unequaled sacrifice, and what it accomplished, work if He's not God?

Note: I didn't even ask about all the verses that show He's God.

For a man, tempted just like we are, to do what Jesus did is much bigger than God doing it. What would be the big deal for God to obey Himself and believe He'd raise Himself from the dead? How would you react if God asked you to do what Jesus did? And of course that would be after you led a life without committing even one sin. That's why it's a much bigger deal for Jesus, a man, to have done what he did than had He simply been an all powerful god or god-man.

God gave man both free will and dominion. Man screwed things up. God did not take back dominion at that point and make things right all by Himself. He had to convince free will people to do His will. Abraham could have said no. Moses could have said no. David could have said no. But they didn't. They, by their free will, did what God wanted. God coaxed the. He didn't bully them by making them do all they did. Jesus was no different other than God wanted him to do way more than everybody else. Jesus did it. He went the distance. Unlike the first Adam that blew it, the second Adam, Jesus, obeyed every jot and tittle. And remember, he had the same feelings and passions as all other men. He just subjugated his own will and desires to that of the Father. That is why he deserves way more credit than had he just been God.

The logos of John is God's plan for redeeming mankind. It's not about brute force. He lovingly and patiently convinced enough free will humans to carry out that plan, Jesus being the star of the show so to speak. It's easy to force one's will on someone weaker. It's another thing altogether to convince them to do it by their own free will.

When tempted, do you feel like you are God? It would be highly deceptive for God to say Jesus was tempted just like you if knew all along that Jesus was God and therefore can not be tempted at all, let alone like you.

 

[GEN2REV]

That is why he deserves way more credit than had he just been God.

You're making a case out of a scenario that is not true, though. And you are using limited human reasoning to belittle the accomplishments of God Almighty in Christ.

Nobody has claimed Jesus was/is "just God." Jesus was born of woman. He had Mary's DNA, her genetic fleshly body that WAS susceptible to temptation, as all our flesh bodies are. He literally strived in the wilderness to the point of needing angelic help to recover. (and God gives that exact help to humans who he deems worthy or whom He has a plan for, but they're still human)

He literally suffered as we do. He literally bled. He literally cried. He literally died.

He was 100% man and 100% God. It doesn't matter that our math doesn't account for those percentages. Science has never been capable of proving God.

And before we make light of His efforts, we may want to consider the difficulty (which we cannot possibly imagine) of an unlimited, immeasurable, all powerful God Almighty diminishing Himself down to the minimal state, and experience, of a mortal man and not using His power, or His angelic resources, to make things easier for Himself in the least.

His purpose was to show all mankind exactly how it's done; to suffer for Truth and faith, to be subordinate and to call upon the Father for our wants and needs, to obey all the 10 Commandments no matter how inconvenient and to die standing upon the faith that we profess for what we know in our heart of hearts is right and to exemplify righteousness to our dying breath.

To minimize what God did in the flesh, as Jesus Christ, is nothing short of abominable heresy.

 

[marks]

And yet ANOTHER thread against the deity of Jesus Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

He was 100% man and 100% God.

To say this, you must not understand math.