quietthinker
Well-Known Member
yes, I'm a very bad boy........now that I stand condemned in your view, do you have any good news? :)
Who Do You Worship?
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yea , lets not follow them either . Rather if one wants to truly know whether they follow and love GOD .
IF one truly wants to know if they follow the one TRUE JESUS CHRIST and not rather another jesus created of men ,
THEN GET IN THE BIBLE and start learning the holy scrips and all things , ALL THINGS JESUS taught
and what later the apostels wrote in letters . LEARN those bibles .
Cause many who even claim to be fundemantal ,are NOT FUNDEMNTAL , rather
they sat under those who claimed to be such and yet taught them THEIR OWN intepretations , their own added doctrines
and even omitted doctrines of Christ . GET IN THE BIBLE and learn the DOCTRINE .
IF one truly wants to know if they follow the one TRUE JESUS CHRIST and not rather another jesus created of men ,
THEN GET IN THE BIBLE and start learning the holy scrips and all things , ALL THINGS JESUS taught
and what later the apostels wrote in letters . LEARN those bibles .
Cause many who even claim to be fundemantal ,are NOT FUNDEMNTAL , rather
they sat under those who claimed to be such and yet taught them THEIR OWN intepretations , their own added doctrines
and even omitted doctrines of Christ . GET IN THE BIBLE and learn the DOCTRINE .
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You actually demonstrate the meaning of the Greek “pro·sky·neʹo”, which corresponds closely with the Hebrew sha·hhahʹ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity.
While the manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·neʹo as in sha·hhahʹ, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down, some lexicographers suggest that originally the Greek term did emphatically portray this idea.
So “worship” is not always the correct word......when applied to God it is different to when it is applied to humans. Showing action in bowing in respect to someone who warrants it, is not “worship” it is “obeisance”. If rendered correctly, there is no confusion....but by using one word “worship” in all instances, the truth is lost. No human is to be “worshipped”.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
My point was that inaccurate rendering of "proskyneō" makes "obeisance" appear to be "worship", when in English, it means more than a simple act of reverence or homage....it is understood as an act performed towards God alone, as Jesus confirmed in Luke 4:8.
As another example, the magi who sought to give gifts to the new "king of the Jews" when they followed "his star" in the East, did not come to "worship" the infant Jesus. They were Babylonian astrologers, worshippers of false gods, whose custom it was to give gifts to royal children. The star that guided them was not sent by God, but by his adversary in order to have Jesus killed.
Jesus was not a god to these men, but a future king.....therefore what they rendered to him, once the star led them to the exact location, was not worship.
It's the Father not the Son that is worshipped. The Father is the true one God not the Son. The Son is the human sacrifice, the spiritual human gate of salvation and therefore the only vehicle to come to the Father in our spirit to his Holy Spirit.
John 4:21
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. (ESV)
John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. (ESV)
John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(ESV)
The Father God is the only object of true worship and expected to be worshipped in spirit. We seek and worship and come to the Father in worship by believing and knowing the Son in mind, heart and spirit. This is the only way. We do not worship our spiritual mediator and savior, who is not our object, of entering into him, our spiritual gate, of going through the gate of the Father's Son.
John 17:1-3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 4:21
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. (ESV)
John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. (ESV)
John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(ESV)
The Father God is the only object of true worship and expected to be worshipped in spirit. We seek and worship and come to the Father in worship by believing and knowing the Son in mind, heart and spirit. This is the only way. We do not worship our spiritual mediator and savior, who is not our object, of entering into him, our spiritual gate, of going through the gate of the Father's Son.
John 17:1-3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Not sure if your understanding of what EG White taught and wrote is a deliberate mis-characterisation and distortion off the truth, or just a simple complete nonsense born of lazy investigation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It's both. Which leaves me with only one option in response. Go and study, read her writings in person, don't believe other's lying testimony as to what she wrote, and come back and tell the truth.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Titus 2:13 in GreekExodus 20:3: “You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Titus 2:13: "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
John 5:18
18 "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
Matthew 2:11
11 "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."
Luke 24:52
52 "And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"
If Jesus is not God incarnate, why do we worship Him? His identity itself is divine! And, He ain't no "angel"! Archangel or any other kind of angel.
5 Bible Verses about Angels Not To Be Worshipped
Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
Matthew 4:9-10
and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”
Luke 4:7-8
Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”
Romans 1:25
"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
Colossians 2:18
"Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,"
Source: 5 Bible verses about Angels Not To Be Worshipped
So then, how do those who worship angel/angels get past these verses? Seems they might have to jump through a whole lotta hoops to make this into "a" truth...?
I am truly interested in what some of our beloved JW's have to say about this...please though, not a million para's...I'm slow like that
τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
(tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ Khri·stouʹ I·e·souʹ)
Henry Alford, in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13 satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s way of writing.”—(Boston, 1877), Vol. III, p. 421.
Regarding John 5:18, Who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? Not Jesus. He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse at John 5:19 “To this accusation Jesus replied: . . . ‘the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing."
By this, Jesus showed the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative. Can we imagine someone equal to Almighty God saying that he could “do nothing by himself”? Interestingly, the context of both John 5:18 and John10:30 shows that Jesus defended himself against false charges from Jews who, like the Trinitarians, were drawing wrong conclusions!
At Luke 24:52 NWT - And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they were continually in the temple, praising God.
The Greek Word proskyneo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings, and you don't worship human prophet's or kings.(Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not worship as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38.)
Worship isn't suppose to be given to Jesus, we should give obeisance to him because we recognize that Jesus is that seed of promise at Genesis 3:15. The only begotten Son of God when in heaven was the only begotten Son of God before he came to earth as a sinless flesh and blood human, so the only begotten Son of God is the Word, which means, it was the only begotten Son of God who became flesh/human. Jesus isn't God incarnate, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. It was the only begotten Son of God who became a fully perfect sinless human just as the first Adam was before he sinned. Those who say it was God who became flesh/human at John 1:14 are denying the Word is the only begotten Son of God and so are denying it was the only begotten Son of God who became flesh/human and came to the world of mankind. They're denying John 3:16.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
By grace through faith said,
White is on record of saying, that those who worship the Lord on Sundays, will receive the mark of the beast. this means that the New Testament Worshippers, including the Disciples, and Paul, and the GREATER MAJORITY, 99% of Christians, are in hell![/Quote\]
The English word Hell, replaced the Greek word Hades when the scriptures began being translated from Greek to English. The Greek word Hades was simply the common grave of mankind, or gravedom, because that's what the Hebrew word Sheol was so when the Hebrew scriptures began being translated from Hebrew to Greek the Greek word Hades replaced the Hebrew word Sheol and it's where all the dead go and sleep in death, until the resurrection. That means Hades and Hell represent the same thing.The dead have no consciousness there, are not aware of anything, can't talk, see, or hear anything, can't feel anything, because they're dead in Sheol, Hades or Hell, sleeping in death, until the resurrection. Anyone saying they who are in Sheol, Hades or Hell are still living souls, or living persons, are denying that they're dead, so are denying death and believing what the serpent told Eve, that she wouldn't die. Genesis 2:7 shows how God created man. It says that God took dust from the ground and formed the dust into a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and the flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. We can see from this scripture that no living soul or living person existed until after God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body. So when the breath(spirit) of life leaves the flesh and blood human body that living soul, or living person, ceases to exist, as a living soul or living person. That's death. Death is the opposite of life. If you're still living you exist and have consciousness, you are aware, you can see, hear, feel, talk, think. Death is the opposite of all that. So words like Sheol, Hades, Hell are words to symbolize that those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection are in his memory and are guaranteed a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29) So the point of all this is that we all go to hell, even Jesus went to Hell, because Hell is just a English word representing the common grave of mankind or gravedom where all who are there sleep in death until the resurrection. Jesus was resurrected back into existence as a living person who was changed into a life giving spirit parts of three days after his death.
White is on record of saying, that those who worship the Lord on Sundays, will receive the mark of the beast. this means that the New Testament Worshippers, including the Disciples, and Paul, and the GREATER MAJORITY, 99% of Christians, are in hell![/Quote\]
The English word Hell, replaced the Greek word Hades when the scriptures began being translated from Greek to English. The Greek word Hades was simply the common grave of mankind, or gravedom, because that's what the Hebrew word Sheol was so when the Hebrew scriptures began being translated from Hebrew to Greek the Greek word Hades replaced the Hebrew word Sheol and it's where all the dead go and sleep in death, until the resurrection. That means Hades and Hell represent the same thing.The dead have no consciousness there, are not aware of anything, can't talk, see, or hear anything, can't feel anything, because they're dead in Sheol, Hades or Hell, sleeping in death, until the resurrection. Anyone saying they who are in Sheol, Hades or Hell are still living souls, or living persons, are denying that they're dead, so are denying death and believing what the serpent told Eve, that she wouldn't die. Genesis 2:7 shows how God created man. It says that God took dust from the ground and formed the dust into a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and the flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. We can see from this scripture that no living soul or living person existed until after God blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body. So when the breath(spirit) of life leaves the flesh and blood human body that living soul, or living person, ceases to exist, as a living soul or living person. That's death. Death is the opposite of life. If you're still living you exist and have consciousness, you are aware, you can see, hear, feel, talk, think. Death is the opposite of all that. So words like Sheol, Hades, Hell are words to symbolize that those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection are in his memory and are guaranteed a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29) So the point of all this is that we all go to hell, even Jesus went to Hell, because Hell is just a English word representing the common grave of mankind or gravedom where all who are there sleep in death until the resurrection. Jesus was resurrected back into existence as a living person who was changed into a life giving spirit parts of three days after his death.
I'm sorry Barney but, I simply wanted to know who worships Jesus Christ as Lord, or...not.
I'm surely not looking to get into the divinity of Christ, which BTW-is no longer allowed according to the new rules...unfortunately.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I agree with much of what you have said above. The Son was subordinate to His Father, and rightly so for such is righteousness. This is evidence indeed of a Godhead not necessarily reflected in trinitarian doctrine. However, a subordinate Son who is yet the express image of His Father, (unlike human sons who are not the express images of their parents but a reduced composite with traces of likeness) may still be worthy of true worship, of the Father declares it appropriate, and He has...I have not yet found a JW who can comprehensively defend their position against verses such that do describe worship by disciples throughout Jesus' life, and this...
KJV Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
While the word for worship can be used as simple obeisance, it is also used for true worship of the deity, a point JWs would like to ignore in favor of the negative. And it is used in reference to Christ.
I do not think Jesus is going to rebuke anyone in heaven for worshipping Him, and confessing Him as "my Lord and my God".
Agreed BL, good post. I've read before how the word used for worship can change like, "simple obeisance" is used for Kings and dignitaries but for in spiritual matters it changes to pure worship of a divine being.
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