When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I’ve heard many men give their understanding of the creation account, that is their earthly understanding. For me it is an account of what began in the first century.
VictoryinJesus
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- Jan 26, 2017
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I’ve lost what is said or proposed pertaining to Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And the graves were opened…so you propose Job stayed in the grave when “the graves opened”. I think it is said by many that they ascended with Him on high when He took captivity captive…that Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
So Job stayed in the grave opened and wasn’t included in the many? But all wait for that verse where Job stands upon the earth in his own flesh and will see God…when Job said I had heard of you but now my eye has seen thee? It seems we will make it mean what ever we want it to mean to keep our own interpretations even we will go with…Job remains in the grave as not part of those many who rose with Him in the resurrection when He opened the graves.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not everyone was in a tomb in Jerusalem. They were scattered "bodily" all over the earth.
All came out of Abraham's bosom. God did not do a half way job.
If you accept a rapture, are only those in Jerusalem going to be raptured, or people in the whole world?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Only God exist outside of creation. Angels do not live in a separate spiritual existence. You are just as spiritual as they are.
What does not exist is a physical 14 billion year old universe. That is just a virtual reality in the human mind.
If Satan through science can implant a physical reality in your mind that does not exist, why do you reject that God has blinded us to all that you call spiritual around us? Spiritual and physical is one equal creation and happened at the same time.
Adam was spiritual. When he disobeyed God he died to the spiritual. It was taken away from him and all his offspring, us. We are spiritually blind and dead. Only the Holy Spirit in us can open our eyes. Only the Holy Spirit can give us spiritual birth.
Paul doesn’t allow for any “spiritual Israel”, but clearly speaks of the nation of Israel
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
That wasn’t a resurrection- no saints arose in an immortal body, they were healed in their mortal body like Lazarus was - otherwise there’d be a group of immortals running around today, like in the TV series.
I believe Jesus left most of the souls of the OT righteous in Abraham’s bosom, so as to take those souls with a Him to heaven at His ascension.
I have no idea why, or how many rose in their mortal bodies - I can only state dogmatically that some saints arose and went into the city after His resurrection.
Shalom Aleichem
Job's body remains in the grave, but Job himself is in Heaven with all the other OT saints. At the Resurrection/Rapture he will receive his resurrected, immortal, glorified body.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Paul also says this
Romans 9:6
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel
Obviously Paul was meaning spiritual Israel here
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No, sorry, soul sleep is the non biblical nonsense- Job isn’t taking a dirt nap, until his body is resurrected- his soul is in heaven. Here’s a brief synopsis refuting soul sleep:
A synopsis of facts:
1. Our body is a HOME we leave at death, and go to be with Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:1,6,8
2.The soul leaves the body at death, therefore doesn’t sleep with it. 1 kings 17:21-23; Genesis 35:18
3. Damned humans are put in the same place that spirits called fallen angels are put - and angels have no bodies to bury or sleep in dirt - hence hell can’t be the grave. Matthew 25:41
4. John sees souls under the altar in heaven, who’ve been slain by the Antichrist, and they are talking to God, so are conscious and awaiting bodily resurrection - not sleeping in the dirt. Revelation 6:9-10
5. When Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the dead, He brings those souls John saw in heaven with Him to reunite with their risen and immortal bodies:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive andremain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
6. There are beings under the earth who talk, thus are conscious - not buried in dirt while asleep in a grave. Revelation 5:13
7. Moses has died, but Moses’ soul isn’t taking a snooze in the dirt, because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Mark 9:4
Shalom Aleichem
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Trollop Curtis.... you attempt to confuse your readers just as much as you are muddling the scriptures to suit your nonsense
Correct. If you were to visit a cemetery and dig six feet under, all you would find are little creatures and nothing else. Soul sleep is PURE NONSENSE. Souls either go to Heaven or to Hades. Period.
First of all, the physical universe isn’t an illusion. God spent 6 days creating what you’re calling an illusion, in Genesis.
Also, Gnosticism was a cult that claimed that all flesh was just an illusion, and as part of that, denied Jesus came in the flesh.
John was contending against Gnostics when he wrote that anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is a deceiver and Antichrist:
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
You’re sounding very gnostic-like.
Here’s an article about Gnosticism.
The Gnostics (pronounced näs-tik) were some of the earliest heretics to infiltrate the church with their poisonous doctrines, arising shortly after the gospel began penetrating the Roman world near the Mediterranean Sea in the first century. The word Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "knowledge." The Gnostics believed there was a mysterious or secret knowledge reserved for those with true understanding, leading to the salvation of the soul. Spiritual salvation was of preeminence to the Gnostics because they thought the human spirit was naturally good and was entrapped or imprisoned in the body, which was naturally evil or merely an illusion. Their goal, therefore, was to free the spirit from its embodied prison, and the only key to unlock the prison doors was the mysterious knowledge they possessed.
This radical distinction between our bodies and our spirits led Gnostics to twist the early church's understanding of who Jesus was and is. The Gnostics saw Jesus as a messenger bringing the special knowledge of salvation to humanity's imprisoned soul. They believed that when Jesus came to earth He didn't possess a body like our own; instead, the Gnostics taught that He only seemed to have a physical body (known as the heresy of "docetism," from the Greek verb "to seem"). This was a denial of the Christian doctrine of the incarnation—the belief that Jesus was both fully God and fully human. But the Gnostics went even further: they also denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus, an event Paul argued must have taken place or our faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:12–14, 16–17, 42–44).
The implications of these Gnostic beliefs had profound effects on the church. Not only did the Gnostics successfully deceive some people in the church into becoming Gnostic themselves, but their misleading ideas about how Christians should live crept into some church teaching. In practice, some Christians came to the false conclusion that they must literally beat their bodies into submission and live such ascetic lives that they never allowed themselves the enjoyment of bodily pleasures. Others went to the opposite extreme and permitted their physical passions to run whatever course they chose. Those in this second group justified their libertine lifestyles with the erroneous notion that their evil bodies were destined for destruction anyway, while their spirits, which they believed were good, would remain unharmed.
Unfortunately, traces of Gnostic thought continue to permeate the thinking of many well-meaning Christians today. For example, some Christians think that only two things will last into eternity: God's Word and the souls of men and women—an emphasis on the spiritual and an exclusion of the physical. But this is wrong. The Bible explicitly teaches that not only will these two last into eternity but so will our bodies, in a glorified state (John 5:28–29; 1 Corinthians 15:42–44).
The implication that the spirit is more important than the body is the reason why an answer of "true" to any question in our quiz is incorrect. James warns us that "pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world" (James 1:27). However, don't make the mistake that believing the converse is true either, that the body is more important than the spirit. Both have equal importance in the eyes of God. Paul said, "Whether . . . you eat or drink or whatever you do [including praying and sharing the gospel], do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31). So let's glorify God by correcting any warped ideas that our minds—the spiritual part of us—are more important than matter—the physical part of us.
(From Derrick G. Jeter)
I have no knowledge from the Bible that Job arose and went into the city, as opposed to his staying in Abraham’s bosom for forty days then being taken to heaven with Jesus.
And I really don’t much care, either way.
Shalom
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They all were given permanent incorruptible bodies made by God. God did not heal their Adamic tent of this corruptible dead flesh. 2 Corinthians 5.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
We should know there are not any naked souls running around in Paradise. The first resurrection is physical, an incorruptible body.
Paradise is a physical place with perfect sinless physical bodies. Jesus has a physical body and so does every one else in Paradise. The change is the soul leaving one corruptible body to enter one incorruptible body.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Paul was giving an example. I live in the US. My example would be: Not everyone in America is American until after citizenship.
No one is part of God's family, until they are adopted into the family. Many who claim Christianity are not Christians.
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
No one is naturally born into God’s family. It is a free will choice to be adopted. Not all of Israel was born Israel. "Of Israel" is the same meaning as "being born Israel". In the case of Israel many are naturally born. Some convert into Israel. The only ethnicity you can convert to. Most people just change cultures, they are not adopted into a culture. Israel is an ethnicity, culture, and religion to some people, ie Judaism. Christianity is not an ethnicity. It can be considered a culture and a religion, except I would prefer to say a relationship with God. Having a relationship with God is not the same thing as a religion that claims stuff about a god. Being a Christian is being in a family of adopted people. Not naturally, nor culturally, like being of Israel. Paul was born of Israel, a Pharisee the religious part. Paul's ethnicity would be his Roman citizenship, that he relied on for legal issues.
The Law of Moses is not a religion. It is not an ethnicity per se. I view it as an economy. It was their normal everyday life every thing revolved around. Judaism turned it into a religion. Judaizers did not know God. They only knew the power of the law from a religious perspective.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Why leave out the part about the new home? A permanent incorruptible body?
I would contend in a permanent incorruptible body.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Did I claim God created an illusion? Changing the subject.
Which verse in the Bible claims God created a universe 14 billion years ago? Which verse claims God created a universe that looks like it was created 14 billion years ago?
Stick to the topic of Satan creating in the minds of humans a virtual reality that science claims is 14 billion years old.
Gnostics denied the science that claimed the earth is 14 billion years old?
Why do you hold on to the Gnostic pagan belief in a prior creation of a mystical realm?
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