When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

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VictoryinJesus

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In the OT, "son of God" was used for those who were God's direct creations, Adam, and the angels. In the NT, we are sons of God, following our Brother, Jesus, the Monogenesis Son of God.

Much love!

@marks concerning the rapture. I have a question. 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. [17] And their word will eat as doth a canker(worm) of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

how can they overthrow the faith of some in saying the resurrection is past already? When if this work be of God nothing can overthrow it nor prevail against it? Then He goes on to say 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so the question again is how does their faith get overthrown? 1 Corinthians 15:34-35 KJV
[34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. [35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
 

marks

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When is Israel redeemed?
What major event occurs after which Israel will all be saved?
After what event does God establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth?
What other event(s) happen(s) in the heavens around the time that God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom?
When does the God Magog armies assemble surrounding Jerusalem.
When do the kings of the earth assemble at Armageddon for the great day of the Lord's to receive His wrath?
When is Jesus scheduled to formally return in Great power and Glory?
I look forward to hearing your opinions on these.
Hi Jay,

Having had this discussion with you at various other times, I'm going to forego it at this time. We have very different ways of reading the Bible, which produce very different understandings.

Perhaps it would be more fruitful to look at how we work out timing and sequence, however, we've had that discussion too.

Much love!
 

marks

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It was not a prophecy of the end of the age, or we would've been told more about it. We are only informed about what the churches in Asia Minor were being told. It sets a pattern for the Church throughout the NT age. Whatever happened seems to have been empire-wide, and this particular church were exempted from it. We don't know what it was. We certainly weren't told it was the reign of Antichrist! This was directed at a church in history--something that they would go through as a local church.
This one is a deeper discussion if you want to have it. Certain questions about these letters, I think, can't really be answered any other way than to understand a multi-layers intention from God for them.

I personally see them addressed to the assemblies then, applicable to assemblies now, and that will reach a fulfillment in assemblies during the 70th week. I realize that is not stated.

Matthew 10 is a very interesting chapter in that regard.

Nothing is said other than that these are Jesus' instructions to His disciples whom He sent out at that time. But when you read the chapter, it doesn't all fit them. I see how it can be divided into the ministry at that time, the time of the Apostles, for the 144,000, and for the great tribulation. It's all in the language. Not stated, but extremely interesting!

In this letter, these words, the time of testing upon the whole world, to test them that dwell upon the earth. That's a phrase to follow through Scripture!

:)

Much love!
 

marks

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@marks concerning the rapture. I have a question. 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. [17] And their word will eat as doth a canker(worm) of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

how can they overthrow the faith of some in saying the resurrection is past already? When if this work be of God nothing can overthrow it nor prevail against it? Then He goes on to say 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so the question again is how does their faith get overthrown? 1 Corinthians 15:34-35 KJV
[34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. [35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
I understand your question mostly, what is the relation to the rapture? If it has already come?

Much love!
 

dismas

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The son of perdition doesn’t step into our body, and declare himself to be God - he steps into the Jewish temple.
The Jews who reject Jesus and therefore reject the new covenant, think they can keep the ended First covenant from Sinai, which requires a special temple to sacrifice the required animals - and the false messiah that the Jews accept as genuine, i e, the Antichrist - reveals himself to be a deceiver, when he goes into their temple, and states He is God.

The 'pharmakia' (drugs for sorcery) of Rev 18:23 deceives the world. This goes into the literal body and is presumably the means by which people think the false messiah is the 'real messiah'. There is also the 'body of the Church', the body of collective Christianity which is the 'temple' that the son of perdition is 'in'.

Also, I am on board with your statement that the Jewish messiah will confirm the Sinai covenant - which means the 'antichrist' is revealed at the time of the confirming of the covenant, not at the time of the breaking of the covenant.
 

marks

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I've done a study on this, and have looked at each element in each of the synoptic Gospels.
I've done word by word comparisons through these prophecies myself, and come away with the different POV.

Somewhere I've got it all written out, but it's quite long.

One of the questions I like to focus in on in this regard is, what is the significance of "but before all these" in Luke 21?

Much love!
 

VictoryinJesus

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I understand your question mostly, what is the relation to the rapture? If it has already come?

Much love!

Some saying the resurrection is past already…is this not a verse used to support those who say the rapture is past already overthrow the faith of some? Or have I misunderstood?
 

Timtofly

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Not very different. The differences really are minor, and indicate each author's writing style--not different elements. I've done a study on this, and have looked at each element in each of the synoptic Gospels. They all say the same things using slightly different words, and sometimes the same exact words. Some include elements that others don't. But the elements that exist from one account to another are not divided by the use of different words. It was viewed as perfectly legitimate to quote Jesus in slight variations, as in a paraphrase.

For example consider the 3 versions of the Abomination of Desolation. Luke does not use that term, although Matthew and Mark do.

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mention of the apostles being persecuted and their need to stand firm precedes the AoD or Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in all 3 accounts. And in all 3 versions they are followed by the need for the Christians to flee to the mountains. In other words, the AoD and the surrounding of Jerusalem by Roman armies are the *same thing!*



While it's possible, and maybe even likely, that Jesus repeated the elements of the Olivet Discourse at different times and in different places in his ministry, the Olivet Discourse itself had a specified time and setting, which was immediately after Jesus left the temple and took his disciples with him up on the Mt. of Olives. It was a time for explaining what he had said about the destruction of the temple. Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all versions of the same discourse, the Olivet Discourse.

Using different words, from one author to another, was not viewed as a critical construction, in which Jesus is quoted exactly. Paraphrases were in play to some degree. Jesus may have used more words to explain something, and one author may include a different set of words that depict the same element given in all 3 accounts.

Such is the case in Luk 21 where Luke records that Jesus specifically said Jerusalem would be surrounded by Roman armies. That literally happened. Jesus did not just say there would be an Abomination of Desolation, although Matthew and Mark did record that part of the speech.

It is therefore highly likely that since all 3 versions were couched between the markers mentioned above, that Luke recorded one element that Matthew and Mark did not record, and that Matthew and Mark recorded words that Luke did not record. Since nobody in the Early Church had a problem with this, we must assume that they all understood Jesus to be describing the same event.

If we put all 3 synoptic gospels together, we have a more complete picture of what the AoD was, namely the surrounding of Jerusalem by abominable pagan forces set to desolate the temple and the city. Just how I see it, and apparently how the Church Fathers saw it.

Unfortunately, today modern prophetic futurism wishes to render some historically-fulfilled prophecies still about the future. And I think that's wrong. Certainly, some of the Olivet Discourse included prophecies of the future. But I think the AoD was something fulfilled in 70 AD and in 135 AD.
Is it your claim that there is no future AoD? I do not know any one who denies the Romans had intent. 70AD was not even when many fled Jerusalem. They fled from the advancing Roman armies a few years before 70AD.

The event they would have knowledge of had already happened with Antiochus Epiphanies. The temple was made desolate for years. It was not destroyed. It was put back to use, although Herod completely rebuilt that one. The one that was destroyed in 70AD was Herod's rebuilt temple.

Even Pilate when first made governor, put up ensigns that desecrated the Temple area and Jerusalem. No one fled. They complained, and those AoD were removed. It seems that Jesus was speaking about a particular AoD, and advancing armies. The one about advancing armies was headed, and they did flee. Yet a few years later thousands if not millions of Jews from all over the empire still gathered for Passover that year, and were slaughtered by the Romans.
 

Marty fox

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It is true, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD but its significance finished when Jesus died 31AD.
If you recall, the curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy was torn supernaturally from the top down signifying that God was done with the sacrifices of animals.....however, the Jews continued their meaningless sacrifices till the Temple was destroyed. They were oblivious to the fact that their house had been left desolate with the rejection of the true Lamb of God.

Edit: I might add, the curtain separating the two apartments was significant in construction....it was heavy and very thick.

I agree and that’s actually what I said I said the same thing as you thanks
 

Timtofly

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To me there is a lot in when those stars fell (their lights put out)…but I realize everyone sees it differently. The thing though in saying angels are angelic beings with wings and not messengers of God which carry the Spirit and a message, is to miss those angels which came to minister unto Him out in the wilderness, where “behold, the angels came and ministered unto Him. Mark 1:12-13 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. [13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

consider Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Realize that sounds insane but (in my opinion) those angels (messengers) that came out into the Wilderness to minister to Him with the wild beast is not angelic beings with wings but the new creation Hebrews 13:10-13 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

as long as we make angels the things of story books and fables …we possibly miss what angels of God? in behold they came without unto Him and ministered unto Him (to SERVE THE TABERNACLE OF GOD) “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” As He told Paul …why do you persecute Me Paul, My body? What angels of God in And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Hebrews 13:10-13 is not talking about angels.

Yes, angels have more than one task. Who is relegating angels to stories and fables? They can still be seen at night up in the sky.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Hebrews 13:10-13 is not talking about angels.

Yes, angels have more than one task. Who is relegating angels to stories and fables? They can still be seen at night up in the sky.


Galatians 4:14 KAnd my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

who serves the tabernacle of God if not angels of God? Those of the resurrection Which neither marry or are given in marriage but are new creatures. Who is the tabernacle of God in whom they serve night and day? Only asking as said earlier (not by you) virgins can’t bear first fruits but isn’t that the miraculous that God can do the impossible?
 

Timtofly

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Where do you find that?

Much love!
Revelation 14:4

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Christ is about ready to set up the Millennium reign. They are called the firstfruits that follow Christ into the Millennium.
 

Waiting on him

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Galatians 4:14 KAnd my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

who serves the tabernacle of God if not angels of God? Those of the resurrection Which neither marry or are given in marriage but are new creatures. Who is the tabernacle of God in whom they serve night and day? Only asking as said earlier (not by you) virgins can’t bear first fruits but isn’t that the miraculous that God can do the impossible?
Amen!
 
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marks

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Some saying the resurrection is past already…is this not a verse used to support those who say the rapture is past already overthrow the faith of some? Or have I misunderstood?
I'm not sure.

:confused:

I think that was the issue Paul was addressing in 2 Thessalonians 2, that some were troubled concerning being gathered to Jesus, because some were saying the Day of the LORD had come.

That would to them be like saying the rapture happened already, why are you still here? Paul was saying, Don't be troubled, it's not the Day of the LORD yet, here's how you'll know.

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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In the OT, "son of God" was used for those who were God's direct creations, Adam, and the angels. In the NT, we are sons of God, following our Brother, Jesus, the Monogenesis Son of God.

Much love!
We are the image of Christ a little lower than the angels. Jesus came as a man a little lower than the angels. Angels are not sons of God in the image of God. Many claim Michael is an angel form of Christ. If both are sons of God, why make a distinction in being lower than? It is not because of location, even though earth is lower than the firmament.

One is created as the stars. One is created in the image of God. How is a star, an image of God? Where is Jesus even considered an angel or a star? There is one place in Revelation 22:16

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Who is Jesus and who is this angel? Jesus is the root of David. The angel is the bright and morning star. Is an interpretation. It cannot be that Jesus was both a human, and created as an angel, the bright and morning star as well. That Jesus was a created angel places him as an equal with Satan another chief star. While other verses claim he was made a little lower than the angels by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. Jesus was the Word before becoming flesh, also not an angel. Jesus in the sense of creation was not a human nor an angel. The Word became flesh. Such instances are metaphorical in the sense that Jesus is His own angel or a star. The sons of God also had the light of a star as the image of God. It would make more sense to say we are stars, than to claim stars are the humans in Genesis 6. As sons of God, we are also messengers of God in many ways. We are not placed in the firmament though. We exist on the earth.
 

marks

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so the question again is how does their faith get overthrown?
My understanding on this point is that even though you are born again, if someone fills your head with nonsense, and convinces you it's true, your faith gets overthrown, it stops benefiting you in your life. Just the same, Jesus still knows that you are His, only, you won't be walking in faith, so your life gets stalled.

Much love!
 

marks

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We are the image of Christ a little lower than the angels. Jesus came as a man a little lower than the angels. Angels are not sons of God in the image of God. Many claim Michael is an angel form of Christ. If both are sons of God, why make a distinction in being lower than? It is not because of location, even though earth is lower than the firmament.
I'm just talking about how the language is used.

Much love!