When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

[Timtofly]

So when it comes to anti-christs...
I think we may need to keep our eyes on President Xi.
They just celebrated 100 years for something.. right in the middle of Tianemen Square.
And He said he was going to reclaim Taiwan.

War is in the air... can you smell it?
I can

Xi Jinping whitewashes China's record of human rights abuses in speech at site of Tiananmen Square massacre
Xi Jinping whitewashes China's record of human rights abuses in speech at site of Tiananmen Square massacre
[email protected] (John Haltiwanger) 4 hrs ago

In an incendiary speech marking the 100th anniversary of the founding of China's Communist Party, Chinese leader Xi Jinping on Thursday portrayed China as an innocent player on the global stage while issuing a grave warning against bullying his country.

"The Chinese people will never allow foreign forces to bully, oppress or enslave us," he said. "Whoever nurses delusions of doing that will crack their heads and spill blood on a Great Wall of steel built from the flesh and blood of 1.4 billion Chinese."

"We will not accept sanctimonious preaching from those who feel they have the right to lecture us," Xi said. "We have never bullied, oppressed, or subjugated the people of any other country, and we never will."


Question:
What if China set up their own portrait on the walls of Jerusalem?
Would that be an abomination of desolation?

thinking... LOUDLY...
HUGS

No, just wars and rumors of wars.

 

[Timtofly]

Or was it the end of the age Jesus was talking about as in the temple age and His coming in judgement?

He would have just said, the Cross is the end of the age. Are you claiming there was a 40 year age between the Cross and 70AD?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Well a son of God is a child of God in the image of God. If you attribute that to angels, then I guess the stars and messengers are humanity, no? Either angels are messengers, thus stars, and humans are the sons of God, or Genesis 1:26-27 is not about humans, but stars/angels.

Angels are on day 4 and humans day 6. Job 38:7 explains both entities were created in the same week, at the beginning.

Let your light so shine before men…

…among whom ye shine as lights in the world


2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

And he asked how many times must I forgive my brother whom sins against me

7x70?

yes, speaking in metaphor again because I don't think he meant you don't stop forgiving at 490. He was saying, you never stop forgiving....just like your father in heaven

 

[Timtofly]

I believe it’s some form of an associative disorder, most Christians today see themselves as first century Jews.

Not me. Jesus was not talking about the first century.

Jesus was describing the current century 2021.


Are you claiming God forgave and changed the hearts of those who crucified Jesus, and made them all fit for an eternal life of righteousness? What was the Jewish revolt for, and the death of millions of Jews in sin?

 

[Curtis]

No

1 Cor 3:16

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
​

What is holy about a rebuilt Jewish temple?

The son of perdition doesn’t step into our body, and declare himself to be God - he steps into the Jewish temple.
The Jews who reject Jesus and therefore reject the new covenant, think they can keep the ended First covenant from Sinai, which requires a special temple to sacrifice the required animals - and the false messiah that the Jews accept as genuine, i e, the Antichrist - reveals himself to be a deceiver, when he goes into their temple, and states He is God.

 

[Curtis]

Daniel 9:24 tells us that Jesus will do these 4 things: -

1. To make reconciliation for iniquity,

2. To bring in everlasting righteousness,

3. To seal up vision and prophecy,

4. And to anoint the Most Holy.

Here’s why you’re wrong: Jesus did not yet do all 4 of those - He did #1 on the criss - the rest wont be fulfilled or completely fulfilled, until the yet-to-come 70th week:

. The prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.

1. (Dan 9:24 a) Seventy weeks are determined for the Jews and Jerusalem.

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,

a. Seventy weeks are determined: There is almost universal agreement among Bible scholars and commentators that this refers to seventy sets of seven years, or “weeks of years.”

i. In ancient Hebrew, weeks simply refers to a unit of seven. The Hebrew word here is often used to mean a unit of seven days, but it may also be used for a unit of seven years.

ii. “The Jews had Sabbatic years, by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years.” (Clarke)

iii. Gen 29:15-28 is an example of using this ancient Hebrew word (shabuwa’) for both “seven days” and “seven years” in the same context.

b. For your people and for your holy city: The seventy weeks are focused upon Daniel’s people (the Jews) and his holy city (Jerusalem).

i. Unless the church has become Israel, it is not in view here. Talbot calls the seventy weeks “God’s calendar for Israel” in that it does not focus on the Gentiles or the church.

2. (Dan 9:24 b) What will be accomplished in the seventy weeks.

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

a. To finish the transgression: This means that transgression itself will be finished. Taken literally this means establishing an entirely new order on earth, with an end to man’s rebellion against God.

i. “The culmination of appointed years will witness the conclusion of man’s ‘transgression’ or ‘rebellion’ against God - a development most naturally entered into with the establishment of an entirely new order on earth. This seems to require nothing less than the inauguration of the kingdom of God on earth.” (Archer)

b. To make an end of sins: Taking these words at face value, this means not only the end of the guilt of sin, but an end of sin itself. It means vto “seal up” or “restrain” sins. This looks to a new, redeemed world.

c. To make reconciliation for iniquity: Man’s iniquity must be reconciled to God’s justice and holiness. This work was clearly accomplished at the cross.

d. To bring in everlasting righteousness: One might take this in an individual sense, but there have always been righteous individuals. Taking the statement at face value, this means a new order of society brought in by the Messiah.

e. To seal up vision and prophecy: This speaks of both the ending and fulfillment of prophecy, concluding the final stage of human history and culminating with the reign of the Son of God.

i. “It must include his enthronement.” (Archer)

f. To anoint the most holy: Taken at its simple, literal meaning, this refers to a place, not a person. There is a most holy place - the most holy place of the temple - that will be anointed and blessed.

g. Taken as a whole, Gabriel made a remarkable announcement to Daniel. He told him that each of these amazing things would happen within the period of seventy weeks.

i. Looking back in history, we can only say this things have each been fulfilled if we ignore their plain, literal meaning and give them a “spiritual” meaning that ignores their plain meaning. Some like to say that these promises are fulfilled generally in the spread of the gospel over the centuries, but this ignores the plain and simple meaning of these words

 

[Jay Ross]

Here’s why you’re wrong: Jesus did not yet do all 4 of those - He did #1 on the criss - the rest wont be fulfilled or completely fulfilled, until the yet-to-come 70th week:

. The prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.

1. (Dan 9:24 a) Seventy weeks are determined for the Jews and Jerusalem.

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,

a. Seventy weeks are determined: There is almost universal agreement among Bible scholars and commentators that this refers to seventy sets of seven years, or “weeks of years.”

i. In ancient Hebrew, weeks simply refers to a unit of seven. The Hebrew word here is often used to mean a unit of seven days, but it may also be used for a unit of seven years.

ii. “The Jews had Sabbatic years, by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years.” (Clarke)

iii. Gen 29:15-28 is an example of using this ancient Hebrew word (shabuwa’) for both “seven days” and “seven years” in the same context.

b. For your people and for your holy city: The seventy weeks are focused upon Daniel’s people (the Jews) and his holy city (Jerusalem).

i. Unless the church has become Israel, it is not in view here. Talbot calls the seventy weeks “God’s calendar for Israel” in that it does not focus on the Gentiles or the church.

2. (Dan 9:24 b) What will be accomplished in the seventy weeks.

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

a. To finish the transgression: This means that transgression itself will be finished. Taken literally this means establishing an entirely new order on earth, with an end to man’s rebellion against God.

i. “The culmination of appointed years will witness the conclusion of man’s ‘transgression’ or ‘rebellion’ against God - a development most naturally entered into with the establishment of an entirely new order on earth. This seems to require nothing less than the inauguration of the kingdom of God on earth.” (Archer)

b. To make an end of sins: Taking these words at face value, this means not only the end of the guilt of sin, but an end of sin itself. It means vto “seal up” or “restrain” sins. This looks to a new, redeemed world.

c. To make reconciliation for iniquity: Man’s iniquity must be reconciled to God’s justice and holiness. This work was clearly accomplished at the cross.

d. To bring in everlasting righteousness: One might take this in an individual sense, but there have always been righteous individuals. Taking the statement at face value, this means a new order of society brought in by the Messiah.

e. To seal up vision and prophecy: This speaks of both the ending and fulfillment of prophecy, concluding the final stage of human history and culminating with the reign of the Son of God.

i. “It must include his enthronement.” (Archer)

f. To anoint the most holy: Taken at its simple, literal meaning, this refers to a place, not a person. There is a most holy place - the most holy place of the temple - that will be anointed and blessed.

g. Taken as a whole, Gabriel made a remarkable announcement to Daniel. He told him that each of these amazing things would happen within the period of seventy weeks.

i. Looking back in history, we can only say this things have each been fulfilled if we ignore their plain, literal meaning and give them a “spiritual” meaning that ignores their plain meaning. Some like to say that these promises are fulfilled generally in the spread of the gospel over the centuries, but this ignores the plain and simple meaning of these words

Curtis, thank you for your explanation as to why you think that I am wrong.

I personally disagree with the logic that you presented as to why I am wrong.

We will simply just have to agree to disagree on our understanding of Daniel 9:24, because any rebuttal of your opinion will be meet in a similar manner like your response quoted above.

Shalom

 

[Timtofly]

Let your light so shine before men…

…among whom ye shine as lights in the world


2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The sons of God were lights. Just not in the sky.

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

That is the full image of God.

 

[Jay Ross]

I've got go, once again . . . I'll need to look back over this more closely, something that caught my attention was this.

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night, and so long as they do, Israel's children will remain a nation before God. He will not cast them off.

This is in context of their full regeneration when that covenant is fulfilled. I think we can know from other places that is when Jesus returns.

Notice that God just says, I will do this, I will put My law in them. This isn't conditional, and as surety, we have the sun and moon.

You made this claim which does not gel with the scriptures but it does gel with your understanding of when things happen.

"This is in context of their full regeneration when that covenant is fulfilled. I think we can know from other places that is when Jesus returns."​

Perhaps to clarify your understanding: -

When is Israel redeemed?
What major event occurs after which Israel will all be saved?
After what event does God establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth?
What other event(s) happen(s) in the heavens around the time that God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom?
When does the God Magog armies assemble surrounding Jerusalem.
When do the kings of the earth assemble at Armageddon for the great day of the Lord's to receive His wrath?
When is Jesus scheduled to formally return in Great power and Glory?
I look forward to hearing your opinions on these.

Shalom

 

[Marty fox]

He would have just said, the Cross is the end of the age. Are you claiming there was a 40 year age between the Cross and 70AD?

Well at that time they didn’t know or understand the cross because it hadn’t happened yet and the Holy Spirit didn’t reveal it to them. The temple age physically went until 70AD although it was really the New Testament age that’s why God destroyed the temple through Rome because the Jews rejected the temple age and kept it going.

 

[quietthinker]

Well at that time they didn’t know or understand the cross because it hadn’t happened yet and the Holy Spirit didn’t reveal it to them. The temple age physically went until 70AD although it was really the New Testament age that’s why God destroyed the temple through Rome because the Jews rejected the temple age and kept it going.

It is true, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD but its significance finished when Jesus died 31AD.
If you recall, the curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy was torn supernaturally from the top down signifying that God was done with the sacrifices of animals.....however, the Jews continued their meaningless sacrifices till the Temple was destroyed. They were oblivious to the fact that their house had been left desolate with the rejection of the true Lamb of God.

Edit: I might add, the curtain separating the two apartments was significant in construction....it was heavy and very thick.

 

[Randy Kluth]

For me, I want to make sure I'm accounting for everything said.

In this instance,

Revelation 3:10 KJV
10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This hour of temptation, what does that refer to? It comes upon all the world, to test them that live on the earth. What is it?

Much love!

It was not a prophecy of the end of the age, or we would've been told more about it. We are only informed about what the churches in Asia Minor were being told. It sets a pattern for the Church throughout the NT age. Whatever happened seems to have been empire-wide, and this particular church were exempted from it. We don't know what it was. We certainly weren't told it was the reign of Antichrist! This was directed at a church in history--something that they would go through as a local church.

 

[Randy Kluth]

However, you can have more than one author recording different parts of His discourse, and you can have more than one discourse.

In truth, Matthew and Luke wrote different words saying different things.

Not very different. The differences really are minor, and indicate each author's writing style--not different elements. I've done a study on this, and have looked at each element in each of the synoptic Gospels. They all say the same things using slightly different words, and sometimes the same exact words. Some include elements that others don't. But the elements that exist from one account to another are not divided by the use of different words. It was viewed as perfectly legitimate to quote Jesus in slight variations, as in a paraphrase.

For example consider the 3 versions of the Abomination of Desolation. Luke does not use that term, although Matthew and Mark do.

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mention of the apostles being persecuted and their need to stand firm precedes the AoD or Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in all 3 accounts. And in all 3 versions they are followed by the need for the Christians to flee to the mountains. In other words, the AoD and the surrounding of Jerusalem by Roman armies are the *same thing!*

Let me ask, for example,

"When you see the abomination of desolation"

And

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies"

Both were recorded, so I'm trusting that both were said. One wrote one, the other wrote the other. I don't think on of them changed Jesus' words, so that tells me in fact that He did say two different things there, in whatever manner. Either two discourses, or His prophecy was recorded in part by each.

Much love!

While it's possible, and maybe even likely, that Jesus repeated the elements of the Olivet Discourse at different times and in different places in his ministry, the Olivet Discourse itself had a specified time and setting, which was immediately after Jesus left the temple and took his disciples with him up on the Mt. of Olives. It was a time for explaining what he had said about the destruction of the temple. Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all versions of the same discourse, the Olivet Discourse.

Using different words, from one author to another, was not viewed as a critical construction, in which Jesus is quoted exactly. Paraphrases were in play to some degree. Jesus may have used more words to explain something, and one author may include a different set of words that depict the same element given in all 3 accounts.

Such is the case in Luk 21 where Luke records that Jesus specifically said Jerusalem would be surrounded by Roman armies. That literally happened. Jesus did not just say there would be an Abomination of Desolation, although Matthew and Mark did record that part of the speech.

It is therefore highly likely that since all 3 versions were couched between the markers mentioned above, that Luke recorded one element that Matthew and Mark did not record, and that Matthew and Mark recorded words that Luke did not record. Since nobody in the Early Church had a problem with this, we must assume that they all understood Jesus to be describing the same event.

If we put all 3 synoptic gospels together, we have a more complete picture of what the AoD was, namely the surrounding of Jerusalem by abominable pagan forces set to desolate the temple and the city. Just how I see it, and apparently how the Church Fathers saw it.

Unfortunately, today modern prophetic futurism wishes to render some historically-fulfilled prophecies still about the future. And I think that's wrong. Certainly, some of the Olivet Discourse included prophecies of the future. But I think the AoD was something fulfilled in 70 AD and in 135 AD.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The sons of God were lights. Just not in the sky.

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

That is the full image of God.

To me there is a lot in when those stars fell (their lights put out)…but I realize everyone sees it differently. The thing though in saying angels are angelic beings with wings and not messengers of God which carry the Spirit and a message, is to miss those angels which came to minister unto Him out in the wilderness, where “behold, the angels came and ministered unto Him. Mark 1:12-13 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. [13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

consider Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Realize that sounds insane but (in my opinion) those angels (messengers) that came out into the Wilderness to minister to Him with the wild beast is not angelic beings with wings but the new creation Hebrews 13:10-13 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

as long as we make angels the things of story books and fables …we possibly miss what angels of God? in behold they came without unto Him and ministered unto Him (to SERVE THE TABERNACLE OF GOD) “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” As He told Paul …why do you persecute Me Paul, My body? What angels of God in And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[marks]

Israel in the true sense are God's people...he will not cast them off.....people globally from every age and culture.
Paul goes to lengths to explain that being a Jew in the real sense (Israel) has not got to do with physical circumcision or being a member of a particular ethnicity (nation)
The references you have quoted in Jeremiah are speaking of this.

I don't know about that. The passage seems pretty specific to the descendants of the man. Other passages too, if I'm remembering correctly.

And there are the passages of the land grants during the millennium, and at the at end of Isaiah 59, it's about their children, and their children's children.

And here in Jeremiah, the message is, I won't cast them off for the things they have done. So then, what other reason would there be? He promises to save them anyway.

Much love!

 

[marks]

euphemism

?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To me there is a lot in when those stars fell (their lights put out)…but I realize everyone sees it differently. The thing though in saying angels are angelic beings with wings and not messengers of God which carry the Spirit and a message, is to miss those angels which came to minister unto Him out in the wilderness, where “behold, the angels came and ministered unto Him. Mark 1:12-13 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. [13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

consider Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Realize that sounds insane but (in my opinion) those angels (messengers) that came out into the Wilderness to minister to Him with the wild beast is not angelic beings with wings but the new creation Hebrews 13:10-13 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

as long as we make angels the things of story books and fables …we possibly miss what angels of God? in behold they came without unto Him and ministered unto Him (to SERVE THE TABERNACLE OF GOD) “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” As He told Paul …why do you persecute Me Paul, My body? What angels of God in And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 18:10 Lexicon: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.


Matthew 18:11 Lexicon: "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

what “little ones” if not “babes in Christ” …destroy not your brother with your knowledge for then you walk not charitable towards him.

 

[marks]

The 144k are firstfruits for the Millennium kingdom on earth.

Where do you find that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

son of God is a child of God in the image of God.

In the OT, "son of God" was used for those who were God's direct creations, Adam, and the angels. In the NT, we are sons of God, following our Brother, Jesus, the Monogenesis Son of God.

Much love!